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JThorne

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Improving my game
« on: September 30, 2016, 10:53:02 am »
+3

I mostly play IRL, several times a week, practice against AI, and read the forum and wiki.

I know tons of combos and deck archetypes, and the advanced strategic considerations like being careful when to trigger a reshuffle, the importance of cycling, etc. I win a lot of IRL games against players who don't study as much, but I also feel like I lose more than I should, and I can usually look back and see where I made a mistake.

Some mistakes are obvious. In a Stables game with no +buy, a single-Province engine as quickly as possible seemed smart. Donate was on the board, and after two Silvers and four Stables, I donated down to exactly $8 (SSCCCC) and four Stables. Ten cards, 5-card hands, 8 cards worth of draw, so it overdraws the deck by 3 and should buy singles for three turns dead reliably. Except that I'm an idiot. It's not just that it MIGHT stall after 3 Provinces...it's GUARANTEED to stall after 3 Provinces. It took until that turn where I was staring at that one Copper in the discard pile to realize that. D'oh!

But barring dumb mistakes like that, there are a few other things I'm trying in order to improve my win rate, and I'm interested in opinions about their relative importance. I may have played hundreds of games, but I know there are those who have played thousands. One other note: Even though I play IRL and often in 3- or 4-player games, we always play with 4 Provinces per player, so multi-Province-buy engine strategies are relevant, which usually isn't true when there are only 3 Provinces per player and BM or single buys has a huge advantage.

Here are some considerations:

Point counting

I'm not good at this, and it's really hard for more than two players. Also, Empires makes that miserably difficult! I know that the online game adds point counters, which is a little cheaty. And I do sometimes lose by a tiny number of points, but boy, it's hard to tell if you should buy that VP or go for the pile-out if you don't know who's winning by +/- 5-10 points.

Piling out

Draining piles deliberately is a tricky one. If it takes two turns to pile out, I'm giving everyone else two turns to catch up on VP. Am I far enough ahead? More to the point: When should I be anticipating that the game could end on piles before anyone's opening buy? Certain cards: Haggler, Peddler with +Buy available, strongly imply some piles draining quickly. But I lost a Develop game recently that I would have sworn would pile, and I was even helping it, but the third pile was elusive. Are pileouts something that you usually plan or from the beginning, or simply look for opportunities for towards the end-game, or both?

I've won a few deliberate pile-outs, but I just lost one in which I Salvaged a couple of Peddlers with some +coin into two Colonies before anyone even had a single Colony (they didn't catch on to the Salvager/Peddler thing until it was too late.) I three-piled after that, being the only player with any Colonies...and lost to Keep points in a game with two Kingdom treasures and Platinum (25 Keep points for player 2!) Have I mentioned that Empires makes things really tricky?

Singles vs. Doubles vs. megaturn

Megaturns are rare. I had one yesterday where everyone else was singling, and I happily paid $10 to buy Ball twice and get four more Highways to go with the two I already had. In a Port/Wharf game. Yeah, I know. How was everyone else singling? Like I said, not everyone I play with is super sophisticated. They saw the light when I bought a massive handful of Provinces the next turn. And yeah, I've played HoP decks and other cost-reduction decks.

But the single-Province engine vs. the double-Province engine is the trickiest, partly because they're the most common, and it's often the most important choice. First of all, I should note that with the improvements in card quality, engines are almost always the answer. BM rarely wins, though I occasionally play it, and I'm sometimes wrong. Our group also usually vetoes all cursers, so we rarely play slogs (multi-player curse slogs are the worst.)

But more to the point: Trying to figure out when other players have started buying singles and I should hold out for doubles is really, really tricky. I feel like I'm guessing wrong more than half the time.

What do you think are the best indications that a double-Province engine is going to be faster than a single-Province engine? Assuming there's a +buy (duh) my general guidelines are looking for a trash-two vs. a trash-one, +3 cards vs. +2 cards, and quality of attacks. Trash-twos get you very thin, very fast, and you can get the draw-your-deck, exponential-growth thing going fast. +2 cards just don't get there, except if you can load up on LOTS of non-terminal ones.

Really good sifters usually lean in the direction of singling, but they can also eliminate the need to overdraw by a lot of cards before greening.

You might say that double-Provincing is rarely the right call in a 4P game because there aren't enough actions. But I've lost to it many times because many actions are just that good and you don't need 7 of them. Plus if there's duplicate villages and draw cards, there may be plenty to go around. But I also hate deciding on doubles, getting two double-buys in a row and then having the Provinces go empty and losing to the guy who bought 5 singles.

So how do you decide between singles and doubles? Do you do it on the fly or when planning? What are the best indicators it's going to work?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 10:57:36 am by JThorne »
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Chris is me

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2016, 11:18:18 am »
+1

Most advice here is tailored for 2P. In 2P, single Province engine without other payload, gains, acceleration methods, etc. is slower than more dominant BM strategies. If you don't have a strong attack every turn or something single province engine as your design goal in a non mirror seems wrong.

In 3-4P, it's more dynamic and intangible; you basically build until you have to start ending the game, and start ending the game based on a combination of how ahead on building you are, how little time they can afford to keep building while you green, etc. You can't necessarily design to a specific number of Provinces or specific money values in those games to the extent you can in 2P. And the other players matter more.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2016, 12:05:03 pm »
+3

Piling out: To repeat Stef's advice, never just lower piles for the sake of lowering piles, except if you can end the game that turn. Either they cards actively help you win or just keep buying green instead.

Personally, I'm also trying to work on the "green early" and "green as late as possible" decisions, where I am laughingly bad at. For example, Butcher really punishes building on double Province since your opponent doesn't leave you any when you get there. I've been burned by that more than I'd like to admit.

I think the most important question is how quickly your engine stalls with green cards in them. In some fragile engines with good payload you just have to keep building until your last turn, whereas in other you have to get green earlier. I haven't been playing long enough with that mindset, but it's pretty helpful so far.
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SettingFraming

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2016, 12:54:53 pm »
+3

Here's some quick notes:

At the start of every game, think.

1. Is this is money game or an engine game? I find that very good players get this wrong a lot (by good players I mean top-100 iso players), and even excellent players occasionally get it wrong. If it is a money game, know what your good BM enablers are. Most of this determination happens by looking at
A) Is it even possible to build an engine? This means that there needs to be draw. This includes thinning--it's important to think of thinning as just another means of draw, really. So this can mean thinning and cantrips, or draw-to-x, or of course the normal stuff that increases your handsize (village/smithy variants, lab variants). If you can't build the engine, obviously don't.
B) Are there attacks that can be effective when played every turn the whole game? They help the engine greatly and can often be the reason to play the engine in and of themselves.
C) How fast can the engine grow? If there's no +Buy or gaining, this significantly weakens the engine.
D) What's the engine payload? This is less important than most people would think in terms of the decision to go engine or not, because a smooth engine with a weak (i.e. silver) payload will demolish BM, while a great-but-not-awesome payload (say, Merchant Guild) with an otherwise very weak engine will struggle.
E) Least importantly, what's the BM enabler? I'm not going to list them here, but good, disciplined BM with a good enabler is still a good strategy against weak engines.

Ok, so that's what you need to do first, and I think a lot of people often just skip steps B-D when determining what to play. Also, in IRL games I have a rule where if I'm going to play BM we skip the board because it's just less fun. But anyways.

2. Develop a mental checklist for each card.
Examples:
A) Foretress is on the board, check for my Trash for Benefit.
B) City is on the board, what piles are going to run?
C) Salvager is on the board, ok this game is going to run more quickly toward the end.
D) Herald is on the board, how can I make a deck that will activate them often?
E) Hermit is on the board; is there a Madman mega-turn?
Etc. These mental notes exist for most cards, of course, and you develop your checklists by playing as well as the obvious things. But when you're playing at a high level, you NEVER want to whiff on a card.

3. Of course, never miss forced wins. But don't play for a forced win: play for a deck that has good pile control, and can take a forced win when there is one. This is pretty similar to drsteelhammer's note.

4. Know what your opponent's deck is capable of doing. This is pretty simple, but takes a little practice and discipline. Count their coins, buys, and gains. This will make it so you never give your opponent a forced win that you don't have to.

5. Determining whether to build for one or two provinces is rarely something you need to decide early, even for 2 player games. As you're building your deck you will realize if you can stretch your deck to 16 and 2 buys or if 8 and 1 buy (or 13 and 2 buys with extra Labs for stability or something) is all it/the game can handle. If there's junking and no thinning, though, you pretty much never want to build too long. You want to put pressure on piles, and you want those pressured piles to be colored green.

6. Don't take my free-hand advice too seriously. I'm just recently a top-100 player, and I only started playing Dominion a few months ago. Watching top players play is an invaluable resource, and I know a bunch of people's games have vastly improved just by watching Mic Qsenoch play on YouTube. Something that also helped me a ton is that you can go to gokosalvager.com and search for game logs by, like, Stef. And it's important to not just read the logs (this also goes for watching YouTube play), but to read what's in the supply, and determine your game plan, and then read the log to see where the top players decisions differed from your own. Think critically about those differences, and that should help your game a lot. 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 12:58:51 pm by SettingFraming »
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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2016, 01:08:35 pm »
+4

If you want to get good watch good people play.
Playing a couple thousand games also helps.
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DG

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2016, 02:34:28 pm »
+2

I wouldn't get too concerned about 4 player end games. Sometimes there isn't one right answer. Sometimes whatever you do will turn out wrong as the opponents will change their play to make it wrong. Engines lose a lot of their control once three other players are buying cards in between your turns.

Double province turns are probably harder to pull off since there might not be enough supply cards if everyone goes for it. However if you do have the chance you should evaluate it purely on point scoring, recognize the danger in giving away a big lead, and not give much value to pile control.

I wouldn't lower piles speculatively in a multi player game unless there's a card like jester around. Lowering piles to a plan is fine of course.
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Chris is me

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2016, 02:42:58 pm »
+2

Piling out: To repeat Stef's advice, never just lower piles for the sake of lowering piles, except if you can end the game that turn. Either they cards actively help you win or just keep buying green instead.

This advice is definitely not universally true. It depends on how safe your lead is, how many gains you feel their deck can do a turn, and long term thinking in general. If you have a lead they can't overtake significantly in one turn, and you don't lower piles enough for them to snipe a one point win, preemptively lowering piles can definitely be an advantage. I did this just yesterday to win a League match over a few turns.
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SettingFraming

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2016, 03:11:18 pm »
0

Piling out: To repeat Stef's advice, never just lower piles for the sake of lowering piles, except if you can end the game that turn. Either they cards actively help you win or just keep buying green instead.

This advice is definitely not universally true. It depends on how safe your lead is, how many gains you feel their deck can do a turn, and long term thinking in general. If you have a lead they can't overtake significantly in one turn, and you don't lower piles enough for them to snipe a one point win, preemptively lowering piles can definitely be an advantage. I did this just yesterday to win a League match over a few turns.

This is true, although rare in some situations you even want to start emptying piles 4-5 turns out. This is most usually true when your opponent has some sort of finicky mega-turn brewing and you have a point lead and your only way to win is to snipe piles. That said, in most cases you probably want to be the mega-turn player here and not the player hoping your opponent stalls long enough for you get the piles empty.

And I think more along what the lines of Chris is saying, yes sometimes if you're just winning by a good margin and their deck isn't capable of much, then you can go for piles a turn early. But you need to be careful about doing so, and often in these cases you'll probably win no matter what you do anyways (as long as it's sensible).
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smcrtorchs

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2016, 07:53:10 am »
0

Well about the 2 provinces or 1 province issue in 2 players games, I think that you can follow the guidelines below. Unless I am missing something, it must be more or less what you do with more players as well.

Let's try to quantify this.

If you can take 2 turns to build up to double province and manage to double province twice you get 24 points in 4 turns. If you can buy 1 province for those 2 turns that you would build otherwise and 1 province at the next 2 turns, then again you have 24 points in 4 turns.

So the questions to ask right before you decide greening or after your opponent bought a single province, are:

1. How many turns does it take to build from single to double?
2. How reliably you can double province after building?

If the answer at question number 1 is just one turn and the answer at question number 2 is that you can double province reliably for two turns, then you want to go for double province.

If the answer to question number 1 is more than two and the answer to question number 2 is that you will double province only once, then almost always you will not want to build up to double province, unless you really stall very hard if you green now. However even in those cases you might want to build a little more, but not necessarily up to double province. It is common to want to build up to the point where every turn you can buy a province and another card that will help you not to stall, like an alchemist, a cartographer, or even a silver in some cases. Again the question you ask your self is:

Will I need more turns to build for my target, or will I stall more turns if I do not try and build?
Most of those cases, where you build for a price point greater than 8 but lower than 16 are the cases where you would stall quite hard otherwise and also the build up to double province is pretty unstable. Apothecary decks come easily to mind as an example.

If the answer to question number 1 is more than two and the answer to question 2 is that you will be able to double province twice, then you should compare the number of extra turns that you need to build to the number of the turns you expect to stall if you start greening now. Follow the option with the smaller number. If the 2 numbers are equal, build more as a province and another card can at least be a province and an estate as a tiebreaker if needed.

If the  answer to question number 1 is two turns and the question to number 2 is that you expect to double province only once and not twice, then you expect to get 24 or 27 or 30, depending on the number of duchies you expect to buy. So if you expect to stall once or more within the next four turns if you green now, you should go for double province.

If it happens that I believe that the two decisions are pretty close, then I usually just build more

There might be some PPR, or other considerations that I did not took into account here, but in general this is what I use and have found that it works more or less fine. I have not been in close end games lately though, so maybe I am missing something important as well.


« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 07:56:27 am by smcrtorchs »
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Titandrake

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2016, 08:26:29 pm »
+1

Piling out: To repeat Stef's advice, never just lower piles for the sake of lowering piles, except if you can end the game that turn. Either they cards actively help you win or just keep buying green instead.

This advice is definitely not universally true. It depends on how safe your lead is, how many gains you feel their deck can do a turn, and long term thinking in general. If you have a lead they can't overtake significantly in one turn, and you don't lower piles enough for them to snipe a one point win, preemptively lowering piles can definitely be an advantage. I did this just yesterday to win a League match over a few turns.

My interpretation of Stef's advice is that you're likely to make a mistake when estimating what your opponent's deck can do and what your deck can do. Preemptive pile lowering usually happens when the winning player is getting impatient and tries to end the game quickly, but this opens you up to losing the game to a single dud turn. It's not that you shouldn't do it. It's that you should make sure you're not trying to show off how good you are at endgames.

(Although, maybe I should let Stef clarify what his advice meant instead of putting words in his mouth. :P)
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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2016, 01:59:37 am »
+1

A lot of games are not a points race, but rather a battle for control.

Control in the sense that you kan keep your opponent's deck in check (by junking, discarding & trashing his cards, etc) while not being too bogged down yourself (by trashing your own cards, building an engine, etc).

Sometimes it's very important to try and get good control. Control also buys time. If you can keep bugging your opponent, his deck will slow down and he won't be able to accumulate points as fast. And if you can get good control of your own deck (drawing and playing every single card for instance), it's much easier to get a lot of points at the moment of your choosing.


Also, never automatically buy something just because you have some $ left over. This goes for Silvers and cheap cantrips. Do you really need them or do they just get in the way?
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JThorne

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2016, 01:13:51 pm »
0

Thanks for the advice.

I have definitely learned not to just buy something with extra money, particularly Silvers. I'm sticking to maybe one Silver to get to $5, and maybe one Gold depending on how much Copper I can trash and get to $8, and I'd much rather have virtual coin to get to $16 than buy more Golds, but I watch for free Gold opportunities if they're around. I'm buying $5 actions with $6 much more often than I used to. I will occasionally play a Silver flood if that's the best strategy on the board, but that's rare. I'm still the only player in our group to ever win Feodum games. They just can't seem to get their head around it.

I'll be more careful about trying to play rushes, then. It sounds like rushing piles is more difficult than I was imagining. The only rush I won recently was a kingdom with Distant Lands/Battlefield, which sure seemed like a no-brainer to me; build to consistent $5 and just hammer the Distant Lands pile. Everyone else was building a typical action/draw/buy engine and didn't catch on until I had five or six of them on the mat and most of the Battlefield points, and by that time it was too late.

The note about Salvager is a good point. Even if I can't get a huge lead, if it it's a small lead I'm starting to learn when to mill provinces with cards like Salvager and Remodel just to end the game before the guy attempting double-buys can pull it off.

The control comment is another good point. I'm starting to be a little more patient and watching what everyone else does. If I know my deck is better and my engine is more consistent, I'll wait to pull the trigger on greening because I know that more turns will benefit me more than them, and that I'll be able to buy more green, so I don't need to be in any hurry; no need to start single-Provincing, which could give them a chance to build to doubles and catch up when I stall.

In addition to combos, I'm also starting to see card synergies early and decide if they're going to be relevant. I no longer look at Courtyard as a weak draw or BM enabler, but look around for cards that really need to meet in the same hand so that the topdeck is a feature, not a bug. Then there's Peddler/Fortress and TfB, Mystic and deck knowledge, and a whole catalog of others.

Everyone in my playgroup knows how to play an actions/draw/treasure engine. They rarely play a golden deck or a disappearing money/draw-to-X, never play a megaturn, and never BM. I basically always win games with no draw engine because most of them can't see that it's just never going to happen with no draw or weak draw.

But let me back up to a BM question:

I don't mind occasionally playing BM just to remind the group that it's sometimes the best strategy against a weak engine. I've won Wharf-BM in a kingdom with no +2 action card (I have no idea what other people were trying to do.) I won a Third Gear game. Wow, is that ever a fast BM. I love that opening three gears can allow you to skip Silver because you can go right to a 6-Copper hand. I even tried double-Jack when the engine was really awful. (Yeah, you guys just keep buying those Oases.) Engines are so seductive that they'll often try it even when there's only Peddler variants like Treasury or even Market, and a draw-3 like Smithy or Rabble, but no +2 actions and no trashing. That's just not gonna happen. BM or bust.

But let me make sure I understand what the really noteworthy BM-enablers are. The wiki may be a little outdated and/or a little scattered when it comes to this subject. The BM article lists every draw card up to a certain point and refers to the individual card articles, many of which don't discuss BM at all (BM-Moat isn't a thing, for example.)

Embassy(!)
Council Room
Gear
Wharf
Catacombs
Envoy
Courtyard
Vault
Hunting Grounds(?)
NOT Royal Blacksmith, amiright?

Are all the other draw-3 cards potentially worth considering for BM? Torturer/Rabble/Smithy/Wild Hunt/etc.? Even trickier: Is Stables-BM a thing? What about sifters like Warehouse and Forum? I feel like the engine would have to be really, really bad or non-existent for one of those to make BM better.
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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2016, 01:56:11 pm »
0

Multiplayer rushes can be complicated because their success is largely based on how many players go for them. You need to read the players as well as read the kingdom. If three players follow the same rush then you need to score at the pace they set.
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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2016, 02:26:38 pm »
0

Hunting Grounds is not generally a strong BM enabler. There are several points against it. First off, it competes with Gold at the $6 price point, so you'll likely be buying Silver with your $5 hands, and you will have to pass up Gold buys. Second, it lacks +Buy, which means you won't be able to buy two cards on your big turns. (Gold+Silver, Gold+Enabler, Province+Silver, etc.) This can matter in situations where you need the extra robustness due to being attacked, or if you are going to have to take all 8 Provinces. See Stef's article for more info.

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2016, 04:51:46 pm »
0

Piling out: To repeat Stef's advice, never just lower piles for the sake of lowering piles, except if you can end the game that turn. Either they cards actively help you win or just keep buying green instead.

This advice is definitely not universally true. It depends on how safe your lead is, how many gains you feel their deck can do a turn, and long term thinking in general. If you have a lead they can't overtake significantly in one turn, and you don't lower piles enough for them to snipe a one point win, preemptively lowering piles can definitely be an advantage. I did this just yesterday to win a League match over a few turns.

My interpretation of Stef's advice is that you're likely to make a mistake when estimating what your opponent's deck can do and what your deck can do. Preemptive pile lowering usually happens when the winning player is getting impatient and tries to end the game quickly, but this opens you up to losing the game to a single dud turn. It's not that you shouldn't do it. It's that you should make sure you're not trying to show off how good you are at endgames.

(Although, maybe I should let Stef clarify what his advice meant instead of putting words in his mouth. :P)

It mostly means that lowering piles that don't help your deck is essentially greening without getting points, which is just riskier than greening. The upside is that your game may be over sooner, but the downside is that you lose more games if you just played it safe.
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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2016, 09:03:01 pm »
0

One of the things I wonder about 3-4 player game is, are there really enough copies of each card to make certain strategies viable? Let's take Highway for example. If there are four players and everyone tries to get them (and why not?), you'll only end up with 2 or 3 copies. Are 3 copies really enough to do all of the fun things with Highway, especially catching up at the end? You can do a few things, sure, but it's not the same as 2 players when you're sad that you only ended up with 4. The typical 2-player engine game goes for as many copies of certain cards before attempting to green for the reason that they can catch up extremely quickly in the last 2-3 turns if they have, e.g. 4 or 5 Wharfs in play.

My sense is that strategies that revolve around having lots of one card are not as viable, but on the other hand, you don't want someone to get all of the Minions or Hunting Parties, so you'll gladly take a few even if they can't be super effective.
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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2016, 01:39:57 am »
+1

But let me make sure I understand what the really noteworthy BM-enablers are. The wiki may be a little outdated and/or a little scattered when it comes to this subject. The BM article lists every draw card up to a certain point and refers to the individual card articles, many of which don't discuss BM at all (BM-Moat isn't a thing, for example.)

Embassy(!)
Council Room
Gear
Wharf
Catacombs
Envoy
Courtyard
Vault
Hunting Grounds(?)
NOT Royal Blacksmith, amiright?

Are all the other draw-3 cards potentially worth considering for BM? Torturer/Rabble/Smithy/Wild Hunt/etc.? Even trickier: Is Stables-BM a thing? What about sifters like Warehouse and Forum? I feel like the engine would have to be really, really bad or non-existent for one of those to make BM better.

If "Big Money" is defined as buying a few copies of a single card + money, then the most effective Big Money strategies are generally ones that include a powerful attack, such as cursing.  For example, Sea Hag - Big Money, would win the majority of games against anything you listed.  However, I expect if a  powerful attack card is in the kingdom, you are already buying that card with your usual strategy.  What may be less obvious is other actions besides attacks and drawing num cards also assist Big Money strategies.  For example, Jack of All Trades  and Rebuild would also win against most of the Big Money strategies you listed.

Regarding the 3 card draws you mentioned, Torturer, Rabble, and Smithy are all possibilities; but in most kingdoms, I'd expect there is a better strategy.   I wouldn't play something like Warehouse alone, but it can assist a large portion of other strategies. Opening Silver/Warehouse would enhance most good "Big Money" strategies involving a $5 card.  BM strategies are also often enhanced by combining a $4 and $5 card.  As a simple example, Smithy + Council-BM is better than Smithy-BM or Council-BM alone; or opening Militia/Silver enhances Wharf-BM.  A rough order of Big Money rankings is below, which I am sure has many cards missing.   You might try using the simulator for more specific details.

Witch
Sea Hag
Soothsayer
Swamp Hag
Mountebank
Young Witch (varies)
Cultist
Gear
Rebuild
Wharf
Jack of All Trades
Torturer
Ghost Ship
Goons
Courtyard
Margrave
Patrol
Vault
Bandit (varies with opponent strategy)
Masquerade
Treasure Trove
Swindler
Rabble
Envoy
Embassy
Council Room
Catacombs
Smithy
Merchant Ship
Ill-Gotten Gains (very effective against traditional strategies, not effective against rush counter BM)


« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 12:15:54 am by NolanA »
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SettingFraming

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2016, 12:01:43 pm »
+1

Big money is forced upon you by the board not supporting a better strategy. In those cases simply pick the best card (or cards) that are going to help you hit your number as much as possible, and, if available, prevent your opponent from hitting their numbers. Creating an exhaustive statistical ranking and comparisons of BM strategies would be useful but tedious. Anyways, I just want to add in that many BM that are very good aren't what you would typically think.

For example, Amulet is actually pretty darn decent big money (you want two or three).
Dungeon + Treasure Trove is spectacular big money (you want two to preferably three dungeons, and one or two treasure troves).
And heck, even just triple dungeon is decent big money, on a similar level to Smithy Big Money.

So there's a lot of stuff out there, and there's still thinking necessary with BM enablers  :)
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aggrosa

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2016, 01:12:11 pm »
0

Just wanted to say that this has been a very helpful thread. I played Dominion a few years ago at a board game night and really enjoyed it. Sadly, that was right around when Isotropic went down and Goko was a huge PoS, so I never played much more than that. I hadn't realized that the online iteration of the game has improved quite a bit.

Jumping into the game now is difficult when there are dozens of cards I've never seen before. Although even in occasional straight base games, my strategies are hampered by poor shuffle luck, and I don't know how to recover. The last game I played was a pretty simple board with Militia, Moneylender, and Witch as the key cards. Anyway, I thought the strategy would be to open Militia/Silver, grab a Witch if I hit $5 and a Gold if I hit $6. Except I hit $4 on my first four draws while my opponent went Moneylender/Silver, jumped to $6, grabbed a Gold turn 3, and that was all she wrote.
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JThorne

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2016, 04:57:28 pm »
+1

Quote
Although even in occasional straight base games, my strategies are hampered by poor shuffle luck, and I don't know how to recover. The last game I played was a pretty simple board with Militia, Moneylender, and Witch as the key cards. Anyway, I thought the strategy would be to open Militia/Silver, grab a Witch if I hit $5 and a Gold if I hit $6. Except I hit $4 on my first four draws while my opponent went Moneylender/Silver, jumped to $6, grabbed a Gold turn 3, and that was all she wrote.

Hmm. I'm guessing some better players will jump in here, but let me see if I'm guessing right; it's hard to know without knowing what the rest of the kingdom is, but my guess is that you both made mistakes. What did you do after your first shuffle? (Stef reminds everyone to think of Dominion in terms of what happens after each shuffle, not after each turn. Your deck only improves after shuffles.) Missing $5 after your first shuffle can certainly happen, but it's not unrecoverable. On a Witch board, buying Witch on $6 is probably the right play because winning the curse split is everything, so I'm reasonably sure that was a mistake on your opponent's part, which potentially let you back in the game. Surely you bought Witch after your second shuffle?

And if you were planning on using Militia and Witch as your key terminal attacks, I'm not sure that you also want Moneylender. Even if there are Villages or other +actions, you don't want too many terminals unless it's an engine board.

Also, don't think about what you'll buy with each amount of money you could have. Instead, think about what you want your deck to have in it, and buy the pieces that you can afford as you can afford them, in the order that makes the most sense for deck development. Don't buy Silver just because you have $3, don't buy more Militias than you need just because you have $4, etc.
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aggrosa

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2016, 01:31:57 pm »
0

Quote
Although even in occasional straight base games, my strategies are hampered by poor shuffle luck, and I don't know how to recover. The last game I played was a pretty simple board with Militia, Moneylender, and Witch as the key cards. Anyway, I thought the strategy would be to open Militia/Silver, grab a Witch if I hit $5 and a Gold if I hit $6. Except I hit $4 on my first four draws while my opponent went Moneylender/Silver, jumped to $6, grabbed a Gold turn 3, and that was all she wrote.

Hmm. I'm guessing some better players will jump in here, but let me see if I'm guessing right; it's hard to know without knowing what the rest of the kingdom is, but my guess is that you both made mistakes. What did you do after your first shuffle? (Stef reminds everyone to think of Dominion in terms of what happens after each shuffle, not after each turn. Your deck only improves after shuffles.) Missing $5 after your first shuffle can certainly happen, but it's not unrecoverable. On a Witch board, buying Witch on $6 is probably the right play because winning the curse split is everything, so I'm reasonably sure that was a mistake on your opponent's part, which potentially let you back in the game. Surely you bought Witch after your second shuffle?

And if you were planning on using Militia and Witch as your key terminal attacks, I'm not sure that you also want Moneylender. Even if there are Villages or other +actions, you don't want too many terminals unless it's an engine board.

Also, don't think about what you'll buy with each amount of money you could have. Instead, think about what you want your deck to have in it, and buy the pieces that you can afford as you can afford them, in the order that makes the most sense for deck development. Don't buy Silver just because you have $3, don't buy more Militias than you need just because you have $4, etc.
Aye, I was planning to avoid Moneylender and focus on winning the Curse split and keeping him tied down with Militia. I picked up Witch on Turn 5 (after second reshuffle), and didn't draw it until Turn 8...with Militia. By trashing early Coppers, grabbing early Golds, and then using Cellar to bypass his curses, he never really seemed bother by the attacks. 

The exact board was just about every card removed from the 1st edition and a few others. Cellar, Chancellor, Workshop, Woodcutter, Feast, Moneylender, Militia, Witch, Mine, Adventurer. No source for an engine, no source for +buy.

Anyway, I think some of it is confirmation bias. I definitely remember the games where I get hosed more than the ones where everything goes according to plan.

Edit: I can't find this exact game, but here's one where my opponent gets a 5/2 split, opens with Mine instead of Witch, and still whips my ass.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 01:44:30 pm by aggrosa »
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NolanA

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2016, 01:54:20 pm »
+1

Aye, I was planning to avoid Moneylender and focus on winning the Curse split and keeping him tied down with Militia. I picked up Witch on Turn 5 (after second reshuffle), and didn't draw it until Turn 8...with Militia. By trashing early Coppers, grabbing early Golds, and then using Cellar to bypass his curses, he never really seemed bother by the attacks. 

The exact board was just about every card removed from the 1st edition and a few others. Cellar, Chancellor, Workshop, Woodcutter, Feast, Moneylender, Militia, Witch, Mine, Adventurer. No source for an engine, no source for +buy.

On a 4/3 split, opening Militia/Silver and Feast/Silver are both good options for this kingdom.  Moneylender/Silver is not.   Running a simulation between Militia and Feast, I get a 49% win rate for Feast/Silver and a 47% win rate for Militia/Silver, so roughly even.   I am assuming buy 1 Witch before Gold and up to 3 terminals.  I also bought a Cellar when helpful.

Quote
Edit: I can't find this exact game, but here's one where my opponent gets a 5/2 split, opens with Mine instead of Witch, and still whips my ass.

The key difference in this kingdom is the Moat. In general, I'd open Moat/Silver here (assuming 4/3), focus in getting Witches quickly, and maybe a Remodel after I have some Gold. However, considering that your opponent bought a Mine on first turn and was likely to skip Witches for some reason, then it would be better to do another Feast/Silver open and go for a Witch-BM type game with few additional terminals besides Witches. In the game, you purchased 4 Remodels and a Moneylender, in addition to Witches and a Moat.  This is too many terminals for no source of +actions.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 05:17:12 pm by NolanA »
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JThorne

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2016, 12:40:45 pm »
+1

Necroing my own thread here, but I just wanted to report: A lot of the advice here has been very helpful.

But also, I might be playing better than I was giving myself credit for. I'm traveling, and my normal playgroup can't get together in person as often, so I'm introducing them to Dominion Online one at a time (the new subscription feature is nice to unlock all the cards without shelling out $100, and I'm hosting games so they can play on a free account.)

I've been playing them one-on-one so far just to introduce them to the system, and absolutely destroying them repeatedly.

...won a Peddler split 7-3 on the back of Worker's Village and Candlestick Maker (Treasure, shmeasure. Also: Chapel! Yay! )

...buried an opponent under curses with Mountebank

...trashed an opponent's entire deck with KC/Knight. He almost recovered with a Knight-proof KC/Poor House strategy to take the lead single-Provincing, until I made him draw a bunch of Copper with Council Rooms and ultimately ended the game on double-Province (I had Necropolis and the +2 Actions Knight to go along with some village or other, so I had terminal space available to add the Council Rooms after his big money was gone.)

...thinned quickly with Masquerade/Spice Merchant/Forager into a whoooole bunch of IronMongers, then passed the redundant trashers with Masquerade while single-provincing forever, as IronMongers do (he resigned at 30-0)

...played a fun Marauder/Conterfeit/Young Witch deck, burying the opponent under ruins AND curses, counterfeiting Spoils for $7 for single-Provincing easily (no handsize-increasers, and the sifting of YW makes getting those key 3-card hands of Spoils/Counterfeit/Copper easier. Not exactly spectacular, but you gotta play the kingdom you get, not the kingdom you want.)

In IRL, we've been playing with a harsh blacklist and a veto round, so we almost never have strong attacks. (Actually, one guy would constently veto strong trashers, including Chapel, because he wasn't very good at building tightly-constructed decks, so we had to add a "reserve" round before the veto round where everyone picks a card that can't be vetoed. I'm starting to hate the blacklist and the veto round altogether; just learn to play Dominion already!)

No such capability in the online client, so I think they were surprised by the effectiveness of some of the attack cards. Setting up an engine to play a key attack payload reliably is awesome. And cruel. I may have to use the randomizer app and manually enter some cruelty-free kingdoms instead if this keeps up. But for now, I'm certainly enjoying myself. It's like I'm actually playing Dominion instead of Multi-Player Engine Party.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 12:42:08 pm by JThorne »
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ackmondual

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Re: Improving my game
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2017, 09:37:07 pm »
0

If you want to get good watch good people play.
Playing a couple thousand games also helps.
Play in tournaments where people actually need to be good to win (some are on the more casual side).  These include at your FLGS, perhaps your own game nights, and conventions.

Playing against AI shouldn't be your only source,, but it is a convenient way to try out strategies and ideas pin their own bubble.
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Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play
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