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[iguanaiguana]

In my day, Scout was a thing that existed and it was the worst.

Seriously, what is happening? Where is the relevant thread or threads that explains this?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16338.0

In stores already!

Oh, Donald, ever the perfectionist!

Intrigue. Intrigue was fine. They can't all be the best versions of Dominion ever.

Yeah. I've had a few weeks to grow accustomed to it, and I'm still not 100% convinced Intrigue really needed the update (and I'm not just saying that because I love Coppersmith). Base most certainly did, but Intrigue? Scout sucked, everyone knew that, but the other cards were all somewhat usable, even Secret Chamber (as a poor man's Vault with a wacky Reaction).

Ah well.

The new cards are designed better than the old ones and the old ones are still 100% available to you if you ever want to play with them. Hard for me to think of that in any sort of negative terms.

[Deadlock39]

Exactly... If you love all the removed cards, and don't want to stop playing with them, then don't. Just get the update packs and pretend they are a new half expansion.

[Aleimon Thimble]

In my day, Scout was a thing that existed and it was the worst.

Seriously, what is happening? Where is the relevant thread or threads that explains this?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16338.0

In stores already!

Oh, Donald, ever the perfectionist!

Intrigue. Intrigue was fine. They can't all be the best versions of Dominion ever.

Yeah. I've had a few weeks to grow accustomed to it, and I'm still not 100% convinced Intrigue really needed the update (and I'm not just saying that because I love Coppersmith). Base most certainly did, but Intrigue? Scout sucked, everyone knew that, but the other cards were all somewhat usable, even Secret Chamber (as a poor man's Vault with a wacky Reaction).

Ah well.

The new cards are designed better than the old ones and the old ones are still 100% available to you if you ever want to play with them. Hard for me to think of that in any sort of negative terms.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing that Intrigue was updated, just that it didn't need it imo.

And they're not 100% available for online play anymore when ShIT takes over.

[Witherweaver]

Wait - there are new shuffle rules?? What?!?!

You can only riffle shuffle now.

[Chris is me]

In memory of  Adventurer, let me recount an odd situation where I bought it and I'm glad I did.

The game was Chapel, Witch, Market Square, and no Village. Started off with Chapel / MS, thinned a bit, gained 2-3 Golds, got a Witch, started attacking and buying a few more Market Squares. As the Curse pile started to run out, I decided to aggressively gain Golds to buy Provinces outright. Eventually I hit a turn where I stalled on 6, frustrated that my +2 Cards terminal draw kept tripping. But there's Adventurer! which guarantees 6 money per play! So I bought one, maybe even two! And combined with MS plays I had at least one Province + something else turn I would otherwise have been unable to do.

Anyhow, this happens so rarely I won't miss Adventurer at all, but RIP in peace and all that. I'm happy with every last change.

[Tables]

Wait - there are new shuffle rules?? What?!?!

Yes and no. There are new rules on how to shuffle, but they're functionally identical to the old rules, just a little easier to apply in practice. Barring one or two minor edge cases at least (Stash, but that's getting a rewording/errata for 1st edition IIRC)

In short: Instead of shuffling when you have no cards in deck and need to interact with the top of your deck, you now shuffle when something tells you to go further into your deck than you can, by shuffling your discard pile and placing it under your deck. So e.g. if you play Smithy with 2 cards in deck, instead of drawing 2, shuffling, forgetting how many you drew, then drawing one more, you shuffle your discard pile, put it under the 2 cards in your deck, then draw 3 cards. Same end result but easier to track.

[Limetime]

Wait - there are new shuffle rules?? What?!?!

Yes and no. There are new rules on how to shuffle, but they're functionally identical to the old rules, just a little easier to apply in practice. Barring one or two minor edge cases at least (Stash, but that's getting a rewording/errata for 1st edition IIRC)

In short: Instead of shuffling when you have no cards in deck and need to interact with the top of your deck, you now shuffle when something tells you to go further into your deck than you can, by shuffling your discard pile and placing it under your deck. So e.g. if you play Smithy with 2 cards in deck, instead of drawing 2, shuffling, forgetting how many you drew, then drawing one more, you shuffle your discard pile, put it under the 2 cards in your deck, then draw 3 cards. Same end result but easier to track.

I liked the old way better.

[AdrianHealey]

We do the new way when it didn't matter, and the old way when it would (stash).

[Davio]

Wait - there are new shuffle rules?? What?!?!

Yes and no. There are new rules on how to shuffle, but they're functionally identical to the old rules, just a little easier to apply in practice. Barring one or two minor edge cases at least (Stash, but that's getting a rewording/errata for 1st edition IIRC)

In short: Instead of shuffling when you have no cards in deck and need to interact with the top of your deck, you now shuffle when something tells you to go further into your deck than you can, by shuffling your discard pile and placing it under your deck. So e.g. if you play Smithy with 2 cards in deck, instead of drawing 2, shuffling, forgetting how many you drew, then drawing one more, you shuffle your discard pile, put it under the 2 cards in your deck, then draw 3 cards. Same end result but easier to track.

I liked the old way better.

If both methods have the same end result in 99% of kingdoms, I would just allow every player to pick the variant they find easiest.

[Witherweaver]

Wait - there are new shuffle rules?? What?!?!

Yes and no. There are new rules on how to shuffle, but they're functionally identical to the old rules, just a little easier to apply in practice. Barring one or two minor edge cases at least (Stash, but that's getting a rewording/errata for 1st edition IIRC)

In short: Instead of shuffling when you have no cards in deck and need to interact with the top of your deck, you now shuffle when something tells you to go further into your deck than you can, by shuffling your discard pile and placing it under your deck. So e.g. if you play Smithy with 2 cards in deck, instead of drawing 2, shuffling, forgetting how many you drew, then drawing one more, you shuffle your discard pile, put it under the 2 cards in your deck, then draw 3 cards. Same end result but easier to track.

I liked the old way better.

If both methods have the same end result in 99% of kingdoms, I would just allow every player to pick the variant they find easiest.

What if it was only the same end result in 73.24% of kingdoms?

[GendoIkari]

Wait - there are new shuffle rules?? What?!?!

Yes and no. There are new rules on how to shuffle, but they're functionally identical to the old rules, just a little easier to apply in practice. Barring one or two minor edge cases at least (Stash, but that's getting a rewording/errata for 1st edition IIRC)

In short: Instead of shuffling when you have no cards in deck and need to interact with the top of your deck, you now shuffle when something tells you to go further into your deck than you can, by shuffling your discard pile and placing it under your deck. So e.g. if you play Smithy with 2 cards in deck, instead of drawing 2, shuffling, forgetting how many you drew, then drawing one more, you shuffle your discard pile, put it under the 2 cards in your deck, then draw 3 cards. Same end result but easier to track.

I liked the old way better.

If both methods have the same end result in 99% of kingdoms, I would just allow every player to pick the variant they find easiest.

What if it was only the same end result in 73.24% of kingdoms?

The new shuffling method is far more skippable than people think.

[cascadestyler]

Ta - I see how that's easier and exactly the same apart from with Stash. I wonder what you're supposed to do with Stash now.

Wait - there are new shuffle rules?? What?!?!

Yes and no. There are new rules on how to shuffle, but they're functionally identical to the old rules, just a little easier to apply in practice. Barring one or two minor edge cases at least (Stash, but that's getting a rewording/errata for 1st edition IIRC)

In short: Instead of shuffling when you have no cards in deck and need to interact with the top of your deck, you now shuffle when something tells you to go further into your deck than you can, by shuffling your discard pile and placing it under your deck. So e.g. if you play Smithy with 2 cards in deck, instead of drawing 2, shuffling, forgetting how many you drew, then drawing one more, you shuffle your discard pile, put it under the 2 cards in your deck, then draw 3 cards. Same end result but easier to track.

[Watno]

Wait - there are new shuffle rules?? What?!?!

Yes and no. There are new rules on how to shuffle, but they're functionally identical to the old rules, just a little easier lot harder to apply in practice.

FTFY

[GendoIkari]

Wait - there are new shuffle rules?? What?!?!

Yes and no. There are new rules on how to shuffle, but they're functionally identical to the old rules, just a little easier lot harder to apply in practice.

FTFY

I played a game IRL yesterday with lots of draw and no attacks; meaning that I was often pre-shuffling before my turn when I knew that I was going to have to shuffle on my turn. I noticed that in that situation, I naturally did the new shuffle rule.

[Watno]

In no way does the new rule allow you to shuffle when it's not your turn (unless you need cards from your deck outside your turn, obviously).

[Chris is me]

In no way does the new rule allow you to shuffle when it's not your turn (unless you need cards from your deck outside your turn, obviously).

It doesn't allow you to, but if you're not gaining anything between turns, there's no consequence to doing it that way.

The shuffle rule is really much ado about nothing. It's no big deal. People are getting worked up over nothing.

[JThorne]

It doesn't allow you to, but if you're not gaining anything between turns, there's no consequence to doing it that way.

Gaining between turns, or being forced to discard between turns, or discarding reactions, or being deck-inspected, or changing your mind about which card you were going to play first after seeing what opponents do and playing sift before draw.

Now there's an interesting puzzle: A complete list of every possible situation that can make it relevant whether you shuffle with a small or empty deck while other players are playing, or whether you have to wait for your turn to avoid corrupting the process. I'll enumerate what I can think of.

-- Gaining: Junkers (curses/ruins/coppers), gifters like Messenger/Embassy

-- Drawing: Council Room, Lost City

-- Topdecking: Ghost Ship, Haunted Castle

-- Inspecting: Spy/Oracle/Scrying Pool

-- Sifting: Oasis/Inn/Warehouse (If you change your mind about the order after watching what others do, Even playing Market/Oasis instead of Oasis/Market could change whether the shuffle triggers before or after you've discarded the card to Oasis.)

-- Reactions: Any reaction that gains, draws or discards can matter, even if played on your turn like self-trashing/Market Square, depending on the order you play them, and the decision about the order can follow what other players do.

-- Changing your mind: Having written two "changing your mind" items, I just had one of those "oh, no" moments. Shuffling is technically relevant at all times and should never be done outside of your turn. I'm going to have a hard time selling that to the playgroup, though. Scenario: Your hand is Smithy/C/C/C/E. You have 1 card left in your deck and it's not your turn. Your opponent draws some cards and plays treasure and you realize that you're light on economy. You decide NOT to play the Smithy and buy a Silver now so that it doesn't miss the shuffle. Therefore, shuffling before your turn would have changed the outcome.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to have a hard time selling that one, especially since early shuffling only hurts the shuffler. But let's flip it around. Shuffler has draw in hand, late in the game, but decides to buy VP after doing a mental point count. But they've already pre-shuffled. Now their newly purchased VP card misses the shuffle.

[Chris is me]

Not all of those necessarily make the shuffle trigger wrong; if you have 2 cards until the shuffle and you plan to draw 3, a Lost City buy doesnt ruin anything. Extra draw alone doesn't mess it up - it has to be something that adds to the discard pile in some way.

What I usually do is shuffle my discard pile and put it face down next to the draw pile. If something is added to it or interferes with the discard at all, I just shuffle again. Since I was already waiting for my turn it's not like the redundant shuffle was wasting play time.

[GendoIkari]

In no way does the new rule allow you to shuffle when it's not your turn (unless you need cards from your deck outside your turn, obviously).

Of course not. But I'm saying that I was pre-shuffling in anticipation of needing to shuffle after I played my first card of the turn; which while not allowed by the rules is a perfectly fine thing to do when the game doesn't include anything that would make it problematic  (which is why I mentioned that there were no attacks).

[GendoIkari]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to have a hard time selling that one, especially since early shuffling only hurts the shuffler. But let's flip it around. Shuffler has draw in hand, late in the game, but decides to buy VP after doing a mental point count. But they've already pre-shuffled. Now their newly purchased VP card misses the shuffle.

Huh? How can you buy a VP card when it isn't your turn?

[tripwire]

What I usually do is shuffle my discard pile and put it face down next to the draw pile. If something is added to it or interferes with the discard at all, I just shuffle again. Since I was already waiting for my turn it's not like the redundant shuffle was wasting play time.

I think this is a great way to "pre-shuffle" that allows you to easily account for anything weird happening before your next turn.

Furthermore, I personally am much more bothered by people that don't shuffle before their turn when they know they'll have to, than by people getting a small advantage because of pre-shuffling. IRL play for me is just about everybody having fun, and slow play and intense monitoring of others hurts that more than somebody unknowingly cheating.

[Deadlock39]

Pre-shuffling is something I do as often as possible. I do this even when my opponent might play a Witch, or Militia, or any of the other possible situations. It is always worth saving some if possible. No one wants to sit and watch people shuffle all night... we want to play Dominion.

Worst case scenario, something happens that changes your discard, and... Oh No!... you have to shuffle some more. The only thing you lost was some time when you could have been sitting there watching your opponents turn while not shuffling.

Sure, you need to be careful with inexperienced players, and make sure they know what the proper timing of shuffles are so they don't inadvertently break the rules, but when everyone knows what they are doing, you might as well speed things along.

There is an argument in here somewhere that your opponent should have vision of the top card of your discard or something, but I am willing to sacrifice that piece of information to speed things along a bit.

[Doom_Shark]

What I usually do is shuffle my discard pile and put it face down next to the draw pile. If something is added to it or interferes with the discard at all, I just shuffle again. Since I was already waiting for my turn it's not like the redundant shuffle was wasting play time.

I think this is a great way to "pre-shuffle" that allows you to easily account for anything weird happening before your next turn.

Furthermore, I personally am much more bothered by people that don't shuffle before their turn when they know they'll have to, than by people getting a small advantage because of pre-shuffling. IRL play for me is just about everybody having fun, and slow play and intense monitoring of others hurts that more than somebody unknowingly cheating.

Pre-shuffling is something I do as often as possible. I do this even when my opponent might play a Witch, or Militia, or any of the other possible situations. It is always worth saving some if possible. No one wants to sit and watch people shuffle all night... we want to play Dominion.

Worst case scenario, something happens that changes your discard, and... Oh No!... you have to shuffle some more. The only thing you lost was some time when you could have been sitting there watching your opponents turn while not shuffling.

Sure, you need to be careful with inexperienced players, and make sure they know what the proper timing of shuffles are so they don't inadvertently break the rules, but when everyone knows what they are doing, you might as well speed things along.

There is an argument in here somewhere that your opponent should have vision of the top card of your discard or something, but I am willing to sacrifice that piece of information to speed things along a bit.

While this is all well and good, the easiest thing to do is ask the others for permission. It isn't going to change the outcome. Knowing that they have, say, a militia isn't going to change the fact that you don't have a (useful) reaction in your hand.

[Watno]

In no way does the new rule allow you to shuffle when it's not your turn (unless you need cards from your deck outside your turn, obviously).

Of course not. But I'm saying that I was pre-shuffling in anticipation of needing to shuffle after I played my first card of the turn; which while not allowed by the rules is a perfectly fine thing to do when the game doesn't include anything that would make it problematic  (which is why I mentioned that there were no attacks).

If you're not following the rules as written anyway, but only something functionally equivant, nothing changes with the new rules.

[pingpongsam]

Pre-shuffling is something I do as often as possible. I do this even when my opponent might play a Witch,

So, you would shuffle your deck minus curses gained this turn before starting your next turn? I would call foul. My hope would be curses I gave you this turn get shuffled into your next turn.