Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Cards that change other cards  (Read 4974 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ankenaut

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +124
    • View Profile
Cards that change other cards
« on: September 26, 2016, 09:16:59 am »
0

I've been mulling over ideas for cards that change other cards. Here's a simple variation on the idea (note that 1 is a numeral whereas "one" and "a" are not). Has this design space been explored here before?

Bookkeeper
Action - $2 cost
You may play an Action card from your hand as if all numerals on the card are increased by 1.

Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2016, 10:08:08 am »
0

I know I've seen this idea discussed before. I think the problem is that different cards use numerals in such different ways. Cellar has "+1 Card per card discarded". That's way different than a vanilla bonus of "+3 cards" or something. For many cards, Bookkeeping the card will be way stronger than Throning the card. For cards like Market, it's exactly the same. I don't see it as possible to balance because of this; it would have to cost at least as much as Throne Room I think, but then there's all sorts of Kingdoms where it does almost nothing.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Ankenaut

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +124
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2016, 10:57:14 am »
0

It would combo better with some cards than others for sure. What card doesn't? In most cases I think this is worse than Throne Room.

Cellar is pretty good with it if you play 1st edition rules.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2016, 11:55:40 am »
0

It would combo better with some cards than others for sure. What card doesn't? In most cases I think this is worse than Throne Room.

Cellar is pretty good with it if you play 1st edition rules.

What rule change would affect Cellar?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Ankenaut

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +124
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2016, 01:31:27 pm »
+1

It would combo better with some cards than others for sure. What card doesn't? In most cases I think this is worse than Throne Room.

Cellar is pretty good with it if you play 1st edition rules.

What rule change would affect Cellar?

Sorry, that was mostly meant as tongue-in-cheek. The 2nd edition Cellar reads

Quote
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw that many.

Note that it doesn't say +1 Card anymore, so it's not a numeral. Obviously it's not the only case (Storeroom... what else?). Do a couple cases like that make it unsalvageable?
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2016, 01:49:21 pm »
0

It would combo better with some cards than others for sure. What card doesn't? In most cases I think this is worse than Throne Room.

Cellar is pretty good with it if you play 1st edition rules.

What rule change would affect Cellar?

Sorry, that was mostly meant as tongue-in-cheek. The 2nd edition Cellar reads

Quote
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards, then draw that many.

Note that it doesn't say +1 Card anymore, so it's not a numeral. Obviously it's not the only case (Storeroom... what else?). Do a couple cases like that make it unsalvageable?

Woah, I hadn't seen/noticed that Cellar got new wording.

So I could be wrong, I'm now thinking that the last time this idea was discussed, it involved changing number words as well as numerals, so things like King's Court would be affected.

Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2016, 01:58:52 pm »
0

So I think Cellar might actually be a perfect example of why this type of card could be problematic... even though Cellar got a new wording, it behaves 100% identical in all its rules. But the old wording and new wording each act different with Bookkeeper. It feels weird that the card should behave differently if King's Court happened to use "3" instead of "three", or if Throne Room said "2 times" instead of "twice". Those are arbitrary grammar decisions that don't affect how the card works, yet they affect how Bookkeeper works.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Ankenaut

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +124
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2016, 02:04:05 pm »
+1

So I think Cellar might actually be a perfect example of why this type of card could be problematic... even though Cellar got a new wording, it behaves 100% identical in all its rules. But the old wording and new wording each act different with Bookkeeper. It feels weird that the card should behave differently if King's Court happened to use "3" instead of "three", or if Throne Room said "2 times" instead of "twice". Those are arbitrary grammar decisions that don't affect how the card works, yet they affect how Bookkeeper works.

I guess I thought that was part of its charm, but I can definitely understand people not liking it.
Logged

J Reggie

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 842
  • Shuffle iT Username: J Reggie
  • Respect: +1487
    • View Profile
    • Jeff Rosenthal Music
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2016, 02:07:43 pm »
0

I tried to do a card like this. The trick was to make it all non-zero numbers.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2016, 02:12:15 pm »
0

I tried to do a card like this. The trick was to make it all non-zero numbers.

Why? What 0 appears on cards other than the cost?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

J Reggie

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 842
  • Shuffle iT Username: J Reggie
  • Respect: +1487
    • View Profile
    • Jeff Rosenthal Music
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2016, 02:13:39 pm »
+2

I tried to do a card like this. The trick was to make it all non-zero numbers.

Why? What 0 appears on cards other than the cost?

"But not less than 0" gets weird.

Ankenaut

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +124
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2016, 03:44:26 pm »
0

I did think about that, and I think your fix is a good one. I figured it was ok to say "not less than x" (where x > 0) as long as you have a ruling on how to interpret it for cards that started with cost less than x.
Logged

Marcory

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 715
  • Respect: +1203
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2016, 11:20:33 pm »
+3

According to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOmdLmwZ_ww

Fortune Teller would become Fivetune Teller (and Fortune would be Fivetune); Forge would be Fivege; Forager would be Fiveager; Fortress would be Fivetress; Forum would be Fiveum; Bandit Fort would be Bandit Fivet; Estate would be Estnine; Sir Martin would be Sir Mareleven; Duplicate would be Triplicate; Mountain Pass would be Mouneleven Pass; and Tomb would be Threemb.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 11:37:28 pm by Marcory »
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2016, 12:16:41 am »
+1

There's an outtake along this line that increased values by 2, at a cost of $2P; Donald described it as "cool but not that good and always iffy". I feel like somewhere else he said that the death blow to this concept was that it couldn't be guaranteed to work the same way in foreign-language versions, but I might be mistaking that for a different outtake.
Logged

AdrianHealey

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2016, 12:24:48 am »
0

Patron, a fanmade card, does something like that. We olay with it and we like it.
Logged

spiralstaircase

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Respect: +453
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2016, 05:15:07 am »
0

I had a go at this too.  It wasn't massively loved or hated.
Logged

Ankenaut

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 123
  • Respect: +124
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2016, 10:18:19 am »
0

Patron, a fanmade card, does something like that. We olay with it and we like it.

Cool, do you have a link to it?
Logged

AdrianHealey

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2016, 10:35:39 am »
+1



Per usual, I have no idea who made it, but it wasn't me.
Logged

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5345
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2016, 04:16:53 pm »
0

Per usual, I have no idea who made it, but it wasn't me.

I remember the thread. It's worth looking for, because it has a lot of neat cards - sadly i couldn't find it immediately. I must admit, i'm not a fan of the concept. It seems gimmicky and buggy, and for most cases, you could just replace the Reaction with the simpler "When you would gain a card, you may discard this to gain a card costing $1 more, instead.".

This would include any +$X and any "gain a card costing up to $X". It would not affect things like Knights (Hooray, let's trash Provinces!), Pirate Ship (Hooray, wording implies doubling!) or cost reducers (well, still kind of) but that's for the better IMO. Many of the interactions are also plain weird. What happens if i use this on Apprentice's non-number coin icon? If i Process Catacombs, can i use this to raise Catacomb's price to $6? It the price such a symbol, even? It certainly looks similar. And how long does it stay that way? If i play Highways and let it say that cards may not cost "less than $1", does Copper actually increase in price?

Patron isn't the worst idea in this design space, but i think the design space itself is not a good one. Donald dropped the idea for a reason. And again, i think most of the time, it's just going to be the reaction i described above.
Logged

AdrianHealey

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2244
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: Cards that change other cards
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2016, 05:28:00 pm »
0

Patron has been used to work on itself, yes
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.047 seconds with 21 queries.