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Author Topic: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?  (Read 4730 times)

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catsclaw

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What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« on: January 31, 2012, 11:54:19 am »
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I just got slaughtered in a game where I tried to use Jack of all Trades to protect against Mountebank.  I thought Jack of all Trades was a good defense against cursers.  Is that not true?
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Jack Rudd

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2012, 11:55:47 am »
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I just got slaughtered in a game where I tried to use Jack of all Trades to protect against Mountebank.  I thought Jack of all Trades was a good defense against cursers.  Is that not true?
It is, but it's not so great at protecting you against copperspamming.
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DrHades

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2012, 12:00:41 pm »
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1. Mountebank gives you a lots of coppers, which is a big problem with JoaT (you will have lots of Coppers, lots of Silvers and therefore lots of problems to get to 8$).

2. The fact that JoaT is a great counter against cursing attacks doesn't mean that DoubleJack will defeat an engine that uses cursing attack or even pure Curser-BM: DoubleWitch crushes DoubleJack 60-38...

3. It is a bit better when you add link to the game so we can see the exact situation  ;)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 12:03:45 pm »
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With these two cards, and nothing else on the board, you want both.

DG

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 12:04:00 pm »
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Jack then mountebank is stronger than just using just jacks or just mountebanks. This holds true for a number of attacks.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 12:13:56 pm »
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Jack then mountebank is stronger than just using just jacks or just mountebanks. This holds true for a number of attacks.

Are you saying that opening on 5/2, you should open Jack over mountebank? Or am I reading way too much into the word 'then'?

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2012, 12:23:37 pm »
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Jack then mountebank is stronger than just using just jacks or just mountebanks. This holds true for a number of attacks.

Are you saying that opening on 5/2, you should open Jack over mountebank? Or am I reading way too much into the word 'then'?
You're probably reading too much into the word "then". Or maybe he's saying jack/silver (on 4/3) > mountebank/nothing (on 5/2). But certainly jack/nothing is bad. You'll have a hard time getting a mountebank before the second shuffle if you open jack/nothing.
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Kuildeous

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 01:12:58 pm »
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Keep in mind what the win rates and simulation results mean. One thing they don't mean is that one strategy will always win over another. They just indicate how strong the strategy is normally. Even if strategy A beats or ties strategy B 83% of the time, that means that there is about a 17% chance that strategy B wins. That seems like a low number, but that's roughly the probability of rolling a 6 on a fair die. Even if the win rate is 97%, that leaves 3%, which is roughly the probability of rolling boxcars on two fair dice.

Maybe you played your Jack perfectly. That still won't help if the shuffles do not favor you.

Jack is a pretty decent defense, but it's not invulnerable. 
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DG

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 01:17:39 pm »
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Simulator says on 5/2 take mountebanks (or witch), 4/3 take jack then mountebanks. For some other attacks you should go jack/rabble, say, even on 5/2.

In general the jack is a good defence in the early turns and gets a little weaker as the deck expands. If you can create an engine that will attack every turn (maybe goons, ambassador, or ghost ship) then the jack can only limit the damage occasionally.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 01:21:36 pm by DG »
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Anon79

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 08:44:11 pm »
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How does Jack fare against Jester? All those Silvers & Coppers for Jester to hit.
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Loschmidt

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 09:07:22 pm »
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Yeah, Jack would do pretty terribly against Jester.

Jack is probably best against handsize reduction attacks. Although its pretty awesome against Sea Hag, you can pick up that curse and then trash it.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 03:38:55 am »
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How does Jack fare against Jester? All those Silvers & Coppers for Jester to hit.
Jester is a tricky kind of attack to think about. To me, the main thing Jester does is gain cards, with the attack being a side-benefit unless you can throne or king it to really throw a lot of junk at your opponents. The "attack" part is hitting coppers or estates to give you junk. Since you trash your estates fast, you're unlikely to actually take any curses, and you can just use Jack to trash them. And coppers? Meh. Off of a Jack opening, you're going for a money deck anyway, so coppers aren't that bad, and you can do a little sifting on them. The biggest impact of the interaction, I think, is that in a deck with a Jack or 2, you're going to have a lot of silver, so his Jester is just going to be gaining him silver for the most part, which is no better than what you're doing with your Jack.
So while it doesn't directly "counter" the "attack" of Jester, I think Jack fares just fine against it. Do you ever really try to "counter" the Jester attack anyway?
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jomini

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 09:30:35 am »
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Another attack that can be hard on jack is ambassador. The estates can get crunched, but they still take up a card slot and the coppers can slow down how fast you can make it to 8 coin.

Another one is noble brigand. You ignore ignore the coppers (unlike thief) or give the jack coppers which is also good and you can steal gold & silver which can slow jack way down. This is normally not enough on its own, but if you can hit it fast & often it can beat jack pretty well.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 01:24:54 am by jomini »
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Loschmidt

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Re: What is Jack of all Trades a bad defense for?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 05:48:04 pm »
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Do you ever really try to "counter" the Jester attack anyway?

Kinda, I'd avoid buying Harems/Nobles etc if my opponent was going Jester

Hey, I just thought about Tunnel vs Jester. If your opponent Jesters and hits a Tunnel you gain a Curse and a Gold. I'd never considered that before.
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