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Author Topic: Black Market?  (Read 35792 times)

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drsteelhammer

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2016, 07:01:17 pm »
+1

Sometimes an Avanto is just an expensive Smithy.

Huh, I've never had that experience with avantoes...

Maybe it was never in your black market deck?
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Orange

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #76 on: November 27, 2016, 07:52:10 pm »
+2

- after every cycle it gets shuffled.

- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.

Why?  Both these feel arbitrary and opposed to any existing rules.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2016, 08:07:24 pm »
+1

- after every cycle it gets shuffled.

- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
Why aren't Treasure Map, Fool's Gold, and Farmer's Market on the exclude list?

EDIT: Farmer's Market would be just a ruined market if it's from the black market, right?
EDIT2: I don't see why Trade Route and Pirate ship are there. You can just hide their counters/mats until the card has been bought.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 11:15:26 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2016, 08:27:58 pm »
+2

- after every cycle it gets shuffled.

- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
Why aren't Treasure Map, Fool's Gold, and Farmer's Market on the exclude list?

EDIT: Farmer's Market would be just a ruined market if it's from the black market, right?
EDIT2: I don't see my Trade Route and Pirate ship are there. You can just hide their counters/mats until the card has been bought.

Because the former cards don't require a setup, unlike the latter ones?
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Donald X.

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2016, 11:12:39 pm »
+5

Why?  Both these feel arbitrary and opposed to any existing rules.
I personally recommended not having cards with setup in the Black Market deck.

You can build the Black Market deck however you want, so, no existing rules being opposed there.
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Orange

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2016, 11:15:34 pm »
+1

Why?  Both these feel arbitrary and opposed to any existing rules.
I personally recommended not having cards with setup in the Black Market deck.

You can build the Black Market deck however you want, so, no existing rules being opposed there.

So what about the shuffle after each cycle?
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Donald X.

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2016, 11:20:29 pm »
+7

So what about the shuffle after each cycle?
He asked if he could do that and I said yes. The argument is that it means you don't scroll back up through the log looking for what the order of the Black Market deck is.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2016, 07:19:35 am »
0

I think it's fine to ban cards with Potions/Ruins because you can buy them, but I think cards with non-supply piles needed should defienently be included, and you only get the pirate ship counter once you gain it.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2016, 07:59:48 am »
+1

For split piles, can either card appear in the Black Market, or only the top card?
If a split-pile (or knights or castles, I don't know if you call them split) is chosen, a random card from that pile is chosen.

Sometimes an Avanto is just an expensive Smithy.

And sometimes rocks are just rocks.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2016, 02:09:39 pm »
+12

I've said it elsewhere, but including Island but not including Pirate Ship seems super inconsistent. Island requires an extra mat, but only once you buy and play it, just like Pirate Ship does. They either both need to be removed or both included - any rationalization of just one is probably influenced by people liking Island more than Pirate Ship.

Just hide the PS counter until you buy it, the same way the Island mat is hidden. I don't see why there is a difference. I also don't see why people should have visible PS counters before they play the card for the first time even in regular games.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 02:12:07 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2016, 03:41:50 pm »
+4

I've said it elsewhere, but including Island but not including Pirate Ship seems super inconsistent. Island requires an extra mat, but only once you buy and play it, just like Pirate Ship does. They either both need to be removed or both included - any rationalization of just one is probably influenced by people liking Island more than Pirate Ship.

Just hide the PS counter until you buy it, the same way the Island mat is hidden. I don't see why there is a difference. I also don't see why people should have visible PS counters before they play the card for the first time even in regular games.

I concur.  Really, the big offenders for Black Market are obvious setup changers: Baker, Trade Route, Young Witch.  With those, you just look at the board for a bit and wonder, wait, why are these here?  As for the non-Supply users, I think you can hide the Prizes or Mercenary or Madman until someone actually buys the relevant card, and then just never put out the Traveller upgrades, since they're useless anyway.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #86 on: November 28, 2016, 04:38:00 pm »
+8

I've said it elsewhere, but including Island but not including Pirate Ship seems super inconsistent. Island requires an extra mat, but only once you buy and play it, just like Pirate Ship does. They either both need to be removed or both included - any rationalization of just one is probably influenced by people liking Island more than Pirate Ship.

Just hide the PS counter until you buy it, the same way the Island mat is hidden. I don't see why there is a difference. I also don't see why people should have visible PS counters before they play the card for the first time even in regular games.

I concur.  Really, the big offenders for Black Market are obvious setup changers: Baker, Trade Route, Young Witch.  With those, you just look at the board for a bit and wonder, wait, why are these here?  As for the non-Supply users, I think you can hide the Prizes or Mercenary or Madman until someone actually buys the relevant card, and then just never put out the Traveller upgrades, since they're useless anyway.

I agree, though I could see also omitting Peasant and Page just so folks don't make the mistake of thinking they're going to upgrade.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #87 on: November 28, 2016, 04:53:41 pm »
+6

I like the idea of removing ones that are practically unplayable(t-map, travelers,FG,peddler,farmers market) and the ones that have set up conditions.
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Davio

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #88 on: November 29, 2016, 05:21:05 am »
0

I would just ban all cards that have the fact that there's more than one copy / an entire pile of them embedded into their design. The problem is that such a list grows pretty quickly.

You start with the obvious cards like Treasure Map, Fool's Gold, etc.
But you could add Rats where it could be an advantage that there's only one.
How about Magpie then?

And Knights, at least you should be able to get your own Knight to defend! But you can extend this reasoning to every attack card since it's pretty harsh if your opponent gets the only curser and there are no trashers in sight. Attack cards only work if both players can get them. So just ban all attack cards. Okay, without attack cards a lot of Reaction cards look pretty foolish, so let's ban them as well.

What are we left with now? Some harmless villages, but wait, what if your opponent gets a village and you don't? Ban the villages!

In the end, the Black Market deck will only contain Pearl Diver and Scout (if you play legacy mode).

I guess I would just ban all cards (aside from those messing with the setup) that have forced instructions that you know can never be fulfilled, such as "gain an X" or "return this card to the supply":
  • Treasure Map
  • Fool's Gold
  • Transmute
  • Page / Peasant
  • Rats
  • Magpie
  • Knights
  • Farmer's Market
  • Gladiator / Fortune
  • Bustling Village
  • Temple
  • Wild Hunt
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 05:33:01 am by Davio »
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #89 on: November 29, 2016, 06:52:43 am »
0

I like the idea of removing ones that are practically unplayable(t-map, travelers,FG,peddler,farmers market) and the ones that have set up conditions.

I agree about Travellers, Peddler and Farmers' M, but I'd remove them because they're sources of confusion, rather than for being useless. But I see the point in getting rid of them too.
I'm for keeping Pirates in business, but all in all I'm very satisfied with Stef's solution.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2016, 12:11:48 am »
0

Going back to the split piles/knights/castles question, I'm pretty sure you can do whatever you want with that, since as far as I know, the only include one from each was a suggestion, and not official errata for the card.
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Davio

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2016, 07:02:00 am »
+1

Going back to the split piles/knights/castles question, I'm pretty sure you can do whatever you want with that, since as far as I know, the only include one from each was a suggestion, and not official errata for the card.
Well, Black Market itself just says "a copy of each Kingdom card not in the supply"; this would include every Knight, every Castle, etc, but only one Patrician and one Emporium, etc.
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Davio

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2016, 10:19:06 am »
+4

Debt cards might work in a way you won't expect.

If you play a BM and reveal an Engineer the first time, you may (I think) "buy" it by taking 4 debt, however, you can't, during that phase, play $4 first to pay it off immediately. You will always get the debt and still have it during your buy phase at which point you can use the $4 played earlier to pay it off.

If you play another BM during that turn, you can't buy any cards, because you have a debt which must be payed off first.
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werothegreat

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2016, 11:44:19 am »
+4

Debt cards might work in a way you won't expect.

If you play a BM and reveal an Engineer the first time, you may (I think) "buy" it by taking 4 debt, however, you can't, during that phase, play $4 first to pay it off immediately. You will always get the debt and still have it during your buy phase at which point you can use the $4 played earlier to pay it off.

If you play another BM during that turn, you can't buy any cards, because you have a debt which must be payed off first.

Exactly.  You can only pay off during your Buy phase.  Similarly, you can't spend Coin tokens at the Black Market.  They only take Bitcoin.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2016, 03:50:25 am »
+1

I want to cast my vote for eventually getting an online Black Market where I can select how many and which cards go into the BM deck, including any that could ever be available in the supply (set up and all).  I realize that I may be in the minority here, but I prefer designed games where the cards in the BM deck interact with the main supply cards - for example, games where the only +2 Actions, +Buys, or trashers can only be found in the BM deck.  I played a game the other day using the Landmark, Keep, where the BM deck contained one of each type of new treasure from each expansion - I lost with a score of 121 - good times.  I think Black Market has lots of strategic potential when the BM deck can be designed. 
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Davio

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2016, 09:15:30 am »
+1

Debt cards might work in a way you won't expect.

If you play a BM and reveal an Engineer the first time, you may (I think) "buy" it by taking 4 debt, however, you can't, during that phase, play $4 first to pay it off immediately. You will always get the debt and still have it during your buy phase at which point you can use the $4 played earlier to pay it off.

If you play another BM during that turn, you can't buy any cards, because you have a debt which must be payed off first.

Exactly.  You can only pay off during your Buy phase.  Similarly, you can't spend Coin tokens at the Black Market.  They only take Bitcoin.
This also means that if you start your turn with Debt, you can not buy any Black Market cards that turn.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2016, 11:19:07 am »
+4

I think that the current implementation of black market is great!

It captures all of the excitement of fishing for new and unknown cards while minimizing the complications and confusion that comes with such an interesting card.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2016, 06:41:27 pm »
+2

I want to cast my vote for eventually getting an online Black Market where I can select how many and which cards go into the BM deck, including any that could ever be available in the supply (set up and all).  I realize that I may be in the minority here, but I prefer designed games where the cards in the BM deck interact with the main supply cards - for example, games where the only +2 Actions, +Buys, or trashers can only be found in the BM deck.  I played a game the other day using the Landmark, Keep, where the BM deck contained one of each type of new treasure from each expansion - I lost with a score of 121 - good times.  I think Black Market has lots of strategic potential when the BM deck can be designed. 

I like the idea of a designed black market deck, but I don't like the fact that this style practically requires that one always go for BM. Once in a while, it might be fun, but do it too often, and it would probably lose its novelty. It seems to me that it would become, "Oh, there's that black market again. Guess I better buy it now."
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2016, 01:53:41 pm »
0

I want to cast my vote for eventually getting an online Black Market where I can select how many and which cards go into the BM deck, including any that could ever be available in the supply (set up and all).  I realize that I may be in the minority here, but I prefer designed games where the cards in the BM deck interact with the main supply cards - for example, games where the only +2 Actions, +Buys, or trashers can only be found in the BM deck.  I played a game the other day using the Landmark, Keep, where the BM deck contained one of each type of new treasure from each expansion - I lost with a score of 121 - good times.  I think Black Market has lots of strategic potential when the BM deck can be designed. 

I like the idea of a designed black market deck, but I don't like the fact that this style practically requires that one always go for BM. Once in a while, it might be fun, but do it too often, and it would probably lose its novelty. It seems to me that it would become, "Oh, there's that black market again. Guess I better buy it now."

In designed Black Market games where the BM deck has cards representing a valuable mechanic (like extra Actions), I see Black Market as basically a meta card.  It wouldn't mean that you always have to buy it or always have to buy from the BM deck - more like, using extra Actions as an example, you buy from the BM deck under similar considerations as whether or not to buy from the Village pile.  Don't want any more +2 Action cards? - play Black Market for +2 Coin on your Buy phase or trash it.

There are lots of other possibilities.  A game with Mountebank, Jack of all Trades (or Hermit), and, say, Beggar in the supply where the BM deck contains all the Treasure trashers/discarders.  A BM deck with +Coin cards superior to Black Market's +2.  A game with attacks where all the Reactions are in the BM deck.  A game with Palace in play where the BM deck contains all of the cards that can automatically gain silver or gold - there very well may be a winning strategy for that set that eschews obtaining Black Market, but trying your luck with the BM deck would obviously be tempting. 

For me, those types of Black Market games are way more fun than most sets where the BM deck is a complete crapshoot - the total randomness is entertaining every once in awhile but not usually.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #99 on: December 03, 2016, 09:27:04 am »
0

I want to cast my vote for eventually getting an online Black Market where I can select how many and which cards go into the BM deck, including any that could ever be available in the supply (set up and all).  I realize that I may be in the minority here, but I prefer designed games where the cards in the BM deck interact with the main supply cards - for example, games where the only +2 Actions, +Buys, or trashers can only be found in the BM deck.  I played a game the other day using the Landmark, Keep, where the BM deck contained one of each type of new treasure from each expansion - I lost with a score of 121 - good times.  I think Black Market has lots of strategic potential when the BM deck can be designed. 

I like the idea of a designed black market deck, but I don't like the fact that this style practically requires that one always go for BM. Once in a while, it might be fun, but do it too often, and it would probably lose its novelty. It seems to me that it would become, "Oh, there's that black market again. Guess I better buy it now."

Can't you substitute 'black market' with 'potion' and 'well designed potion cards' (not transmute) and basically have the same argument? With that difference that black market is actually, on the margin, more fun.
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