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Author Topic: Black Market?  (Read 35803 times)

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Chris is me

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2016, 02:27:14 pm »
0

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.

Lots of things work better when there's more than one. I don't think we should exclude everything from that pile for that reason; only the things that don't work at all alone, if that. So, just Treasure Map really. If you want to pick one Castle for the pile, pick the discard for benefit one, that might sometimes do something. Several of the split pile cards are decent alone, in either half; sure they get a bit worse but that's just Black Market Weirdness for you.

Some cards like Rats actually become cool and useful and just fine if you don't gain any more.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2016, 02:33:12 pm »
0

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.

Split piles are generally designed such that the top cards can be useful even if you never get to the bottom cards. So I personally would use the top card of each split pile in the Black Market deck. But there's no hard and fast rule about it.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2016, 02:34:47 pm »
0

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.

Every card is designed around being a pile, banning some of them just ends up in a slippery slope you can't get out of. For example, is fools golds reaction part sufficient? What about Peddler? or Transmute/Rats?
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Marcory

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2016, 05:12:11 pm »
0

Having a lone Knight from the BM isn't really any worse than having the lone Swindler or Curser or Giant, is it?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2016, 08:01:15 pm »
+2

Man, and we wonder why so many people hate Black Market.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2016, 12:26:57 am »
0

2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box

How do you handle Knights and split piles?

I've never come up to them, but I would probably just get the right card out when the randomizer is flipped over.
Well, if you go by the "rules" you would have to include every Knight and split pile card separately, because you need a copy of each kingdom card not in the supply.

So 10 Knights, 8 Castles, 2 of each of the split piles, etc.

I seem to remember a ruling somewhere that you're only supposed to include one of each of them.

IIRC that was just a recommendation, but that's how Goko handles it.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2016, 02:17:30 am »
+1

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.

Every card is designed around being a pile, banning some of them just ends up in a slippery slope you can't get out of. For example, is fools golds reaction part sufficient? What about Peddler? or Transmute/Rats?
It's true. You could just ban BM altogether because it goes against the spirit of the game: the fact that you can get the same cards as your opponent. But Tournament already ruined that.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2016, 09:10:51 am »
0

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.

Every card is designed around being a pile, banning some of them just ends up in a slippery slope you can't get out of. For example, is fools golds reaction part sufficient? What about Peddler? or Transmute/Rats?
It's true. You could just ban BM altogether because it goes against the spirit of the game: the fact that you can get the same cards as your opponent. But Tournament already ruined that.

Tournament was when Dominion jumped the shark!
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Davio

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2016, 01:00:07 pm »
+3

I once googled where that reference came from, was not disappointed.
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Destry

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2016, 06:33:42 pm »
+1

Personally I prefer the way Goko does it. (I think... it's been a while.) 25 random cards from the expansions owned. If there are any additional setups, then they are added at initial setup and not mid-game. After cards are revealed, player determines order placed on the bottom.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2016, 08:19:38 am »
+6

If you want to take out Treasure Map, why not take out Scout as well?
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ConMan

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2016, 07:31:04 pm »
+2

If you want to take out Treasure Map, why not take out Scout as well?
Alternatively, why not just make the Black Market all-Scout, all the time?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2016, 02:50:48 am »
+10

If the removed cards from 1st edition are not available Online, I think it would be a neat Easter Egg to have them in the Black Market deck.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2016, 05:24:24 am »
0

I'm a big fan of not doing setup for BM cards.  We also skip Potion cards (draw the next card) if Potions weren't otherwise out - hasn't actually come up for Ruins but I guess we'd skip those too.  Drawing the Treasure Map is fine.
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Chris is me

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2016, 09:55:00 am »
+2

Hey, since we're tweaking the wording and rules for official cards even slightly, I think it stands to reason that it would be okay to change the wording for Black Market to whatever the developers and Donald X decide to do, at least in the online version. Even now it kind of bugs me that the card's stated description for setup doesn't match what happens online.
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Destry

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2016, 12:40:52 pm »
0

Theoretically, since it is an online implementation, you could have the players choose how they want the Black Market deck to be set up. Have a panel for each player to choose if they want the cards to come from which expansions, whether players can look through the deck, add setup items at the beginning or as cards are revealed. Could even be set up as a preference, so you don't have to go through it each time Black Market comes up. If there's a difference, you could indicate if you care and how much, and negotiate from there.

I say theoretically since it would be a silly amount of work for practically no benefit.
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werothegreat

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2016, 01:04:12 pm »
0

Theoretically, since it is an online implementation, you could have the players choose how they want the Black Market deck to be set up. Have a panel for each player to choose if they want the cards to come from which expansions, whether players can look through the deck, add setup items at the beginning or as cards are revealed. Could even be set up as a preference, so you don't have to go through it each time Black Market comes up. If there's a difference, you could indicate if you care and how much, and negotiate from there.

I say theoretically since it would be a silly amount of work for practically no benefit.

I'm sorry, I have nothing to add to this conversation, I'm just supremely amused that Sir Destry has spent most of his forum time posting in the Fan Cards subforum.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2016, 02:27:19 pm »
+2

Theoretically, since it is an online implementation, you could have the players choose how they want the Black Market deck to be set up. Have a panel for each player to choose if they want the cards to come from which expansions, whether players can look through the deck, add setup items at the beginning or as cards are revealed. Could even be set up as a preference, so you don't have to go through it each time Black Market comes up. If there's a difference, you could indicate if you care and how much, and negotiate from there.

I say theoretically since it would be a silly amount of work for practically no benefit.

I'm sorry, I have nothing to add to this conversation, I'm just supremely amused that Sir Destry has spent most of his forum time posting in the Fan Cards subforum.

It's where all the cool kids hang out.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2016, 08:25:58 am »
+18

Thanks for all your input.

These are the rules for the Black Market deck we'll use on January 1st:
- the deck has 60 random cards you own.
- after every cycle it gets shuffled.
- the decks contents are unknown at the start of the game
- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
   -> Cards that require extra mats (island, native village) are allowed in the deck.

Maybe, just maybe, on some future date you will be able to configure these rules yourself or specify the deck completely. But for now, that is too much work for not enough gain.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2016, 08:56:59 am »
+5

Thanks for all your input.

These are the rules for the Black Market deck we'll use on January 1st:
- the deck has 60 random cards you own.
- after every cycle it gets shuffled.
- the decks contents are unknown at the start of the game
- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
   -> Cards that require extra mats (island, native village) are allowed in the deck.

Maybe, just maybe, on some future date you will be able to configure these rules yourself or specify the deck completely. But for now, that is too much work for not enough gain.

Oh my god , all the best cards are gone!
At least we can still buy Fool's Gold and Treasure Map

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2016, 10:06:39 am »
+5

   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.

I don't think you should ever find Potions, Spoils or Ruins in the Black Market deck.
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Holger

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2016, 11:27:59 am »
0

Thanks for all your input.

These are the rules for the Black Market deck we'll use on January 1st:
- the deck has 60 random cards you own.
- after every cycle it gets shuffled.
- the decks contents are unknown at the start of the game
- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
   -> Cards that require extra mats (island, native village) are allowed in the deck.

Why isn't Pirate Ship allowed if Island and Native Village are? Neither needs a setup, except for the mat.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 11:32:32 am by Holger »
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2016, 11:42:13 am »
+4

For split piles, can either card appear in the Black Market, or only the top card?
If a split-pile (or knights or castles, I don't know if you call them split) is chosen, a random card from that pile is chosen.


Why isn't Pirate Ship allowed if Island and Native Village are? Neither needs a setup, except for the mat.
IRL you're right, but in our implementation Pirate Ship is represented with a dedicated counter and not a mat (same as MF).
Island and Native Village indeed need a mat, but that mat is invisible until any cards are put on it anyway.

The whole idea is that no confusing things show up on the screen which you can only understand by realizing some specific card is in the BM deck.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2016, 02:49:54 pm »
+1

For split piles, can either card appear in the Black Market, or only the top card?
If a split-pile (or knights or castles, I don't know if you call them split) is chosen, a random card from that pile is chosen.

Sometimes an Avanto is just an expensive Smithy.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2016, 02:54:28 pm »
+1

Sometimes an Avanto is just an expensive Smithy.

Huh, I've never had that experience with avantoes...
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