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Author Topic: Black Market?  (Read 35795 times)

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faust

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2016, 04:12:29 pm »
+1

I would support having all cards in the Black Market deck and ignoring the setup text on the cards in the black market.

I like this idea, and it seems like it could easily fit within the current rules with a clarification from DXV. If the card wasn't visible during setup, you don't do the things it says to do during setup. It's a little similar to other cards like Knights or Ruins where you only actually interact with the one card you can see.

It might break a few cards (Marauder), but that seems okay for a promo. The Black Market already drastically changes some cards (Page, Rats, etc). And you probably won't even see most cards in the deck anyway. Is there anything that would be truly game-breaking?

I don't really like this... what about mats? You won't have any mats since you didn't take them out during setup. Native Village puts cards... where? Can Pirate Ship still earn coins when they can't go on a mat? Is Island a 2VP Action that does nothing? Not to mention that it completely breaks all Reserves.

Now you maybe say "it doesn't say to take out mats during setup". Well it doesn't say to take out Madmen during setup on Hermit, so that should be fine. Really things just get confusing and unclear whatever ruling you decide on.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2016, 04:28:09 pm »
+1

Maybe I'm not being pedantic enough, but I'd say if you need a mat, you get one. That's basically how I play IRL. We only pass out mats for a specific card when a person buys that card.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2016, 04:32:34 pm »
+1

What about this as an option: Only perform "setup" for cards in the Black Market deck if someone purchases them.

So you don't show the Madman pile unless someone buys Hermit. Baker would be a little weird because everyone would get a coin token in the middle of the game. Young Witch would be the really weird one with having to add an entire normal supply pile in the middle of the game. Maybe just no bane in that case?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2016, 05:00:20 pm »
+6

Adding a bane in the middle of the game would be hilarious
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faust

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2016, 05:05:04 pm »
+1

Adding a bane in the middle of the game would be hilarious

And there come new rules issues with it; can the bane be a card that has previously been revealed from the BM deck? What about bought?
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faust

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2016, 05:06:53 pm »
+2

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2016, 05:08:24 pm »
+5

Maybe I'm not being pedantic enough

You're still young to the forum.  You'll learn.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2016, 05:38:14 pm »
0

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.

That's an entirely different promo. It's actually a promo event that's a black market with all the events not used in this game.
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SCSN

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2016, 05:47:39 pm »
+11

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.

I envision a Quantum Market filled with Landmarks that start acting only once they are observed.
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faust

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2016, 06:48:59 pm »
0

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.

I envision a Quantum Market filled with Landmarks that start acting only once they are observed.

Shoulnd't they rather stop acting once they are observed? That fits more closely to what little I know of quantum physics.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2016, 07:23:51 pm »
0

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.

Seeing how once Empires id out, seeing any event will be rare, I'm all for this.
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sudgy

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2016, 07:28:30 pm »
0

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.

I envision a Quantum Market filled with Landmarks that start acting only once they are observed.

Shoulnd't they rather stop acting once they are observed? That fits more closely to what little I know of quantum physics.

It's more "You don't know what something is until you observe it".  Having unknown landmarks that get activated when observed is a pretty good analogy in my opinion.


Anyway, for what it's worth, here's how I play with Black Market in real life:

1. Make the Black Market deck out of the unused randomizers (kind of broken now with Events and Landmarks, but you can just skip those if you need to)
2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box
3. All setup that can affect the game instantly is set up from the beginning (Baker token, Ruins, Potions, Young Witch bane, Trade Route tokens, maybe others I can't remember)
4. Any setup otherwise comes out when you need it (Madmen and such, Spoils, Mats, Tokens, etc.)

Just to be ridiculous, my first BM game I played we decided to do all setup.  I am never doing that again.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

faust

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2016, 02:12:13 am »
0

2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box

How do you handle Knights and split piles?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2016, 07:44:03 am »
+8

Am I really the only person who thought the 25 card deck that didn't get shuffled was kind of novel and tactical? I didn't think it was hated so much. A lot of this stuff seems to be changes that would make Black Market less interactive and more completely random.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2016, 08:35:09 am »
0

I would go for a 25 card black market, cards unknown at start of game, shuffle when exhausted. I'd give the software designers free license to choose which cards are included or not.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2016, 09:26:13 am »
+2

I'd prefer a full Black Market. It's how I enjoy it IRL, with all setups on buy (Baker too, and Trade Route does fun things) except Potion.
I don't own Young Witch, but I honestly yhink that it would be hylarious. Just think of the good times if Menagerie is the Bane. But saying goodbye to on-setup cards sounds like a fine alternative.

I play somewhat competitively, but I mostly play for the fun times, and Black Market is more fun when it's whole.
The excitement of turning three completely unknown cards is priceless. If you always know what you can expect the experience is somewhat spoiled (compare "Border Village! Cool!" to "And here's Border Village, Scout and Transmute. Shit none of the draw cards yet.")
I've found that it also helps in the seldom situation that somebody pulls a real Bomb(TM) out of the BM. If the BM is finite (and 25 cards is very finite), it really feels bad for you that didn't get it, but when the BM is an infinite mine of wonders you'll be a bit less screwed, as you might pull your own diamond out of the tunnels. You might still lose, but it does feel better (I've tried both).

To conclude, I must say that I've felt compelled to "fix" the second shuffle of the IsoGoko Black Market a couple of times before, and it was an unfun chore, so whatever you go for, I strongly support taking that part away.  :)
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2016, 09:36:09 am »
+2

Am I really the only person who thought the 25 card deck that didn't get shuffled was kind of novel and tactical? I didn't think it was hated so much. A lot of this stuff seems to be changes that would make Black Market less interactive and more completely random.

Why are you trying to regulate the black market?  Communist!
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Davio

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2016, 10:14:00 am »
+4

Here's what you do:

  • Put all cards into the BM deck
  • Remove utterly useless cards that depend on their own number of copies: Treasure Map, for instance; maybe Fool's Gold (although you could Crown it for $5)
  • Don't perform setup specified on cards (no bane for YW, no Trade Route tokens, no Baker's coin)
  • Do perform setup for cards with a generic setup (add Potion)
  • Only show a needed extra pile when a certain card is bought. For instance, add spoils when Marauder is bought, add Madman when Hermit is bought; just hide any "this is not in the supply" pile until needed
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2016, 01:52:17 pm »
0

Here's what you do:

Remove utterly useless cards that depend on their own number of copies: Treasure Map, for instance; maybe Fool's Gold (although you could Crown it for $5)

Play by the rules otherwise.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2016, 03:18:47 pm »
0

Here's what you do:

Remove utterly useless cards that depend on their own number of copies: Treasure Map, for instance; maybe Fool's Gold (although you could Crown it for $5)

Play by the rules otherwise.

The problem with this is that it implies his #1 point also. That's what the rules say ("every card not in this game"). And that means that every single game that includes Black Market would also include every single extra pile. I can't remember how many that is, but isn't it something ridiculous like 40 total piles at this point?
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sudgy

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2016, 03:37:50 pm »
0

2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box

How do you handle Knights and split piles?

I've never come up to them, but I would probably just get the right card out when the randomizer is flipped over.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ConMan

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2016, 07:12:53 pm »
+1

Another option, because why not?

For randomly built kingdoms, 25 cards selected from all possible cards (regardless of whether players normally have access to those cards), contents known to the players, all relevant setup is done for cards in the BM. When the BM deck is depleted and you need new cards for the BM, shuffle it (i.e. same rule as for player decks). For cases where the piles contain multiple different cards, put the randomiser in the BM and reveal one card from the pile randomly when it comes up - if the card is not bought, then the randomiser can be a different card from the pile the next time it shows up.

For custom-built kingdoms, players can either select for a random BM (in which case it selects 25 - where possible - cards from the player's collection) or custom build one, same behaviour during the game as above.
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Davio

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2016, 06:25:42 am »
0

2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box

How do you handle Knights and split piles?

I've never come up to them, but I would probably just get the right card out when the randomizer is flipped over.
Well, if you go by the "rules" you would have to include every Knight and split pile card separately, because you need a copy of each kingdom card not in the supply.

So 10 Knights, 8 Castles, 2 of each of the split piles, etc.
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sudgy

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2016, 01:33:53 pm »
0

2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box

How do you handle Knights and split piles?

I've never come up to them, but I would probably just get the right card out when the randomizer is flipped over.
Well, if you go by the "rules" you would have to include every Knight and split pile card separately, because you need a copy of each kingdom card not in the supply.

So 10 Knights, 8 Castles, 2 of each of the split piles, etc.

I seem to remember a ruling somewhere that you're only supposed to include one of each of them.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2016, 02:21:44 pm »
0

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.
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