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Author Topic: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards  (Read 32445 times)

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tristan

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #50 on: September 07, 2016, 09:07:17 pm »
+1

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant,
This segment just isn't true.
Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not. And if nobody opens with it there is still a little bit of a waiting game going on (more so admittedly in a 3P game).
This is the kind of indirect interacttion I want Dominion cards to provide. Miser is in comparison just bland; it is a card which could have been in the base set instead of Moneylender.
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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2016, 09:41:59 pm »
0

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant,
This segment just isn't true.
Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not. And if nobody opens with it there is still a little bit of a waiting game going on (more so admittedly in a 3P game).
This is the kind of indirect interacttion I want Dominion cards to provide. Miser is in comparison just bland; it is a card which could have been in the base set instead of Moneylender.
If your opponent plays BM and There is a viable engine with villages then you might rek them.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #52 on: September 07, 2016, 10:15:13 pm »
+1

P Ship is awful almost 100% of the time. The payload is weak as it takes time to build up. Mandarin which is a crap card gives you $3 right away. You aren't getting any benefit the first few times you play P Ship. As a matter of fact, your opponent is actually benefiting, and usually immensely.

But, hey if you want to play P Ship against me, please be my guest.
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Seprix

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #53 on: September 07, 2016, 10:17:31 pm »
0

Wow, so much going on in this thread that I completely disagree with. I guess I will give my opinion, because damn it, it's America.



Bridge has little in common with Merchant Guild. Both supply +1 Coin and +1 Buy. That is all. Bridge giving a decrease in cost and taking coin tokens have nothing in common whatsoever. In fact, there's a bigger commonality between Goons and Merchant Guild! When you buy cards with both of them in play, you get stuff for each buy. How much more similar can you even get?
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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2016, 10:26:16 pm »
+2


Both get better the more of them you play in a given turn and make you want to buy lots of cards.
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Seprix

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2016, 10:28:43 pm »
0

It is the other way around, Pirate Ship is nearly always (unless there are ample of cards that provide virtual coins) relevant,
This segment just isn't true.
Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not. And if nobody opens with it there is still a little bit of a waiting game going on (more so admittedly in a 3P game).
This is the kind of indirect interacttion I want Dominion cards to provide. Miser is in comparison just bland; it is a card which could have been in the base set instead of Moneylender.

Let's look at this logically.

1. Pirate Ship trashes Treasures with each play.
2. Big Money needs Treasures to play effectively.
∴ Pirate Ship discourages Big Money.

1. Pirate Ship trashes Treasures with each play.
2. Engines do not necessarily need Treasures to play effectively.
∴ Pirate Ship does not necessarily discourage Engines.

We have all we need.

1. Engines are the big majority of strategies played.
2. Pirate Ship discourages Big Money play by virtue of being on the board.
∴ Pirate Ship incentivizes people to build Engines.

But is it Pirate Ship that is forcing this choice, or is it that it is a vastly superior engine, even without Pirate Ship?
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traces Around

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2016, 10:49:29 pm »
+1

Ignore the post above mine. Seprix privately told me that it was stupid before he posted it  ;).

Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not.
Dude. People literally have to design boards for Pirate Ship to disincentivize buying Treasures. Like, yeah, of course it comes up randomly because it can, but the fact that the boards have to be specifically designed to make this the case should tell you that it is not often.

I was really close to writing something about the Bridge/Merchant Guild/Goons comparison that was being made. That one is possibly even easier to explain why each of Bridge and Merchant Guild play more similarly to Goons than to each other, but like, play with the cards and it is easy to see why this is the case.
You can do all the theory you want based on effect but you will lose a lot of games without experience using a card if you try to build your deck around it - and that is even assuming that building your deck around that card is the right thing to do.

NolanA

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2016, 01:35:12 am »
+1

Ignore the post above mine. Seprix privately told me that it was stupid before he posted it  ;).

Nope. You disavow that the mere presence of Pirate Ship often disincentivizes you from buying Treasure cards, independent of whether somebody will actually open with Pirate Ship or not.
Dude. People literally have to design boards for Pirate Ship to disincentivize buying Treasures. Like, yeah, of course it comes up randomly because it can, but the fact that the boards have to be specifically designed to make this the case should tell you that it is not often.

There is a difference between one person designing a kingdom to have a quasi-golden deck Pirate Ship pin that eliminates every one of the opponent's treasure cards from having to design kingdoms for Pirate Ship to be effective.  In some kingdoms, all Pirate Ship needs to do is grab 4+ coins quickly in the early game and have a way to likely be played 2+ times per turn in mid game.   It won't be an unescapable pin, like the above link, but it can get provinces quickly enough to winm in the right kingdom.   I agree that Pirate Ship is not going to be relevant in most 2 player games and shouldn't have much impact on your strategy, including buying treasures, in most kingdoms.  However, it can be the better strategy in enough games that it should not be ignored.  If you know your opponent is playing a Pirate Ship strategy, it also can influence the best strategy to counter, such as favoring good sources of virtual coins or trashers more than you would in non-PS games .

For example, suppose you are playing a 2 player game in a kingdom that includes Pirate Ship, Fishing Village, Merchant Ship, and Smithy.   Pirate Ship + Fishing Village destroys Smithy - Big Money.   Smithy - Big Money wins against Merchant Ship + Fishing village.  And Merchant Ship + Fishing Village wins against Pirate Ship + Fishing Village (if MS strategy almost entirely uses virtual coins instead of treasure).  The best strategy isn't obvious to me because it depends on what my opponent is doing.  However, if one of the remaining kingdom cards is a powerful attack, like Witch or Ghost Ship, then the best strategy no longer is particularly relevant to Pirate Ship or if my opponent is doing something Pirate Ship related since Fishing Village + powerful attack + ... thoroughly beats all of the above. Instead it more becomes a question of how the other kingdom cards can enhance or build an engine around Fishing Village + powerful attack.  In short, it depends on the kingdom, like nearly every other card.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 02:00:16 am by NolanA »
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traces Around

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2016, 02:15:31 am »
0

Quote of me + 340 words
Shoot, man. I'm not even arguing against your particular point, even if I do somewhat disagree with it.

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2016, 02:48:22 am »
+4

Similarities between Goons and Merchant Guild:

- They are best used when you can play multiples of them, because the extra +Buys give you more tokens exponentially.

quadratically
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2016, 03:30:40 am »
0

7. Miser

Before I get to Miser, let me tell you something about Pirate Ship. When I spent countless hours browsing the Wiki, I slowly but surely learned about all the cards that existed. Pirate Ship was the final card I learned about. I had seen it a couple of times already, but I was always like ‘wall of text, people say it’s weak, never mind already’. Of course, in the end I learned what its gimmick was all about. I thought it was pretty cool, if a bit convoluted and weak in the same way Thief is. Well what do you know, Miser has a similar gimmick but it actually helps yourself instead of your opponent. Not a power card, but definitely one of the cooler ones. Yay Miser!
Ehm, you never played with these cards? OK. ^^

About Miser, I think it is wrose than Pirate Ship. Not in terms of strength, it is probably better on average, and not in terms of being too different (both are slow build-up cards) but in terms of creating interaction and shaping the game. The very presence of Pirate Ship significantly influences the game and makes these Kingdoms often fun to play.

That's rather presumptuous of you, to assume I've never played with Miser or Pirate Ship just because I have a different opinion than you. (although tbh I do like that there's some discussion on said opinions)

Edit: Oh wait, never mind, I see what you're talking about. Yes, I have played with those cards, in the case of Pirate Ship only online. When I started browsing the Wiki a year and a half ago, though, I had never played with most of the cards and I slowly learned about every card in the Dominion universe. Pirate Ship was the last card I learned about, after a couple of months of browsing.

I do agree that Pirate Ship can be a fun card, because its presence can influence the way you build your deck even if you never actually buy it. However, it's a bit wordy and awkward and on the weak side even in the best case scenario, which are factors diminishing its fun factor to me. Miser, on the other hand, is a slow but potentially powerful payload card that involves interesting decisions at every corner. Once you get 3 or 4 Coppers on the Tavern Mat, you really start to wonder, do I want to put another Copper there or should I cash in already? I don't think it's bland at all.

Similarities between Goons and Merchant Guild:

- They are best used when you can play multiples of them, because the extra +Buys give you more tokens exponentially.

quadratically

Yeah, quadratically. Thanks for fixing that :)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 03:34:08 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2016, 03:39:10 am »
0

Wow, so much going on in this thread that I completely disagree with. I guess I will give my opinion, because damn it, it's America.



Bridge has little in common with Merchant Guild. Both supply +1 Coin and +1 Buy. That is all. Bridge giving a decrease in cost and taking coin tokens have nothing in common whatsoever. In fact, there's a bigger commonality between Goons and Merchant Guild! When you buy cards with both of them in play, you get stuff for each buy. How much more similar can you even get?

I'm not from America but I also give my opinions!

Goons and Merchant Guild are more similar than Bridge and Merchant Guild, that's a given. What they all have in common is that they're potentially powerful terminal, non-drawing payload cards that work best in strong engines.
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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2016, 08:52:43 am »
+2

Quote
grab 4+ coins quickly in the early game and have a way to likely be played 2+ times per turn in mid game.

Just want to point out that the seventh shuffle (the bare minimum four attacks + 2 payload plays could take with one PS) is very rarely the "mid game"; it is at best what, Turn 15? You've already lost by then.

PS is just too slow to work without +Buy and some other method of lengthening the game, and it is just not good enough in 2P. Miser is literally a *pirate ship that attacks yourself* and it's widely considered to be the better card.
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tristan

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2016, 09:03:59 am »
0

7. Miser

Before I get to Miser, let me tell you something about Pirate Ship. When I spent countless hours browsing the Wiki, I slowly but surely learned about all the cards that existed. Pirate Ship was the final card I learned about. I had seen it a couple of times already, but I was always like ‘wall of text, people say it’s weak, never mind already’. Of course, in the end I learned what its gimmick was all about. I thought it was pretty cool, if a bit convoluted and weak in the same way Thief is. Well what do you know, Miser has a similar gimmick but it actually helps yourself instead of your opponent. Not a power card, but definitely one of the cooler ones. Yay Miser!
Ehm, you never played with these cards? OK. ^^

About Miser, I think it is wrose than Pirate Ship. Not in terms of strength, it is probably better on average, and not in terms of being too different (both are slow build-up cards) but in terms of creating interaction and shaping the game. The very presence of Pirate Ship significantly influences the game and makes these Kingdoms often fun to play.

That's rather presumptuous of you, to assume I've never played with Miser or Pirate Ship just because I have a different opinion than you.
Presuming? You said yourself that you read about the card on the Wiki. ^^
Nice that you clarified your background though and that your opinion concerning pirate ship is informed by play and not by reading alone.


You can do all the theory you want based on effect but you will lose a lot of games without experience using a card if you try to build your deck around it - and that is even assuming that building your deck around that card is the right thing to do.
I never sad that Pirate Ship is a good card (you are the one with the extreme opinion that Pirate Ship is always bad without taking account that player count and Kingdom can very well make Pirate Ship a decent card) or that it should make you NOT buy Treasure at all.
What I said is that the presence of Pirate Ship always DISINCENTIVIZES you (of course not totally) from buying Treasure (just like the e.g. presence of a junker makes trashers even more valuable or just like the presence of Knights makes buying 2s a tiny bit better). Even if the guy who buy Pirate Ship loses he might trash some Silvers and Gold of yours.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2016, 09:12:47 am »
0

Presuming? You said yourself that you read about the card on the Wiki. ^^
Nice that you clarified your background though and that your opinion concerning pirate ship is informed by play and not by reading alone.

Hence my later addition to that post. ;)

---

Time for the penultimate write-up!

6. Counting House

Oh man. I really did my best for you, dear Counting House. I really tried to prove that you’re strong, I really tried to find arguments for that. But you’re forgettable more often than not and that’s sad, because you’re pretty damn cool. I tried a Counting House cage match against Lord Bottington and lost more often than I’m proud to acknowledge. Still, at the risk of sounding like Roadrunner and his Scout idolatry, I feel it shouldn’t be dead last in the Qvist rankings. There should be at least a handful of $5 cards that are worse. Pretty please? Help me fight for its redemption in the next installment!

5. Throne Room

Simple but sweet. By far the coolest card from the Base set, because it powers up so many of the cooler earlier cards, without becoming a bit broken in the process (I’m looking at you, KC). From Mine to Bridge to Coppersmith, fistfuls of cards really enjoy a Throne Room boost to bring out their full potential. Throne Room is kind of like the perfect support act for your favorite band. You went to see Nightwish and then got blown off your feet from a stunning performance by Amorphis. Something like that. I’m not sure which card is Nightwish in this simile to be honest, just use your imagination, people!

4. Feodum

I’m pretty sure I’ve claimed a couple of times before that Feodum is my favorite card. I change my mind sometimes, okay? There are several very awesome cards. Feodum is combolicious though. On some boards it’s gonna be a mostly dead card, but any Silver gainer and you suddenly need a very strong engine to compete with a simple Feodum/Silver gainer strategy. I can’t even count the times on one hand where an opponent underestimated this very simple idea and got slaughtered. Good times.
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Seprix

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2016, 09:38:37 am »
0

Counting House can be really nice in a Scrying Pool deck with discard for benefit, such as Hamlet, Oasis, and Storeroom. I did that once, to great success.
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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2016, 09:54:09 am »
0

Counting House can be really nice in a Scrying Pool deck with discard for benefit, such as Hamlet, Oasis, and Storeroom. I did that once, to great success.

Counting House has a couple of really, really cool niches. The Travelling Fair combo is bonkers, of course, and good sifting or discard-for-benefit can help Counting House work in an engine. Slogs on Colony boards also work, for example as a counter to Mountebank. It's too bad that it's only usable on like 10% of all the boards. But if it's usable, it's often the star of the show. I guess that's why I like it so much.
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NolanA

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2016, 01:51:12 pm »
+1

Quote
grab 4+ coins quickly in the early game and have a way to likely be played 2+ times per turn in mid game.
Just want to point out that the seventh shuffle (the bare minimum four attacks + 2 payload plays could take with one PS) is very rarely the "mid game"; it is at best what, Turn 15? You've already lost by then.

PS is just too slow to work without +Buy and some other method of lengthening the game, and it is just not good enough in 2P. Miser is literally a *pirate ship that attacks yourself* and it's widely considered to be the better card.

In my earlier posts, I've emphasized a way to play Pirate Ship multiple times per turn, such as combining with a strong village, which does much better than above in kingdoms where you'd want to play PS. To confirm, I wrote a sim for this case.  The sim found that Pirate Ship + Fishing Village vs a decent strategy that emphasizes money typically reached 4+ coins around turn 8.  Sims had an average game length of ~16 turns (assuming no opponent attacks or trashing), with Pirate Ship usually buying 4+ Provinces by the turn 15 "mid game" you listed.   Pirate Ship soundly won in all such simulations of kingdoms/opponents that meet these criteria. 

The game length increased in other kingdoms with opponent attacks, trashing, or emphasizing VC.  For example, Pirate Ship + Fishing Village vs Smithy/Salvager + Fishing Village was an interesting case.  If the Smithy/Salvager plays with a strategy that emphasizes virtual coins by only purchasing 1 Gold in treasure (no silvers unless FV runs out) and waits for $13 in deck for the first buy, then the game lasts an average ~20 turns and Pirate Ship had a 71% win rate.  However, if the Smithy/Salvager player tries to speed up the game by buying provinces any time he has 8+ coins, then the game lasted an average of ~17 turns and Smithy/Salvager had a 54% win rate.  If Pirate Ship modifies usual strategy to compensate for the modified fast game opponent strategy, then Pirate Ship wins the majority again.  Smithy/Salvager could further modify... and so on... it can lead to some interesting strategy decisions.  The games where Pirate Ship + strong village failed in my sims are the ones where you'd expect, which usually involved  kingdoms with some combination of the following:

1.  A strong attack, particularly cursing or hand size
2.  A strong source of at least +2 virtual coins (played multiple times, with the village)
3.  Possibility of a draw full deck type engine that includes multiple buys
4.  Fast early game treasure trashing

« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 02:52:23 pm by NolanA »
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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2016, 02:53:32 pm »
0

Pirate Ship usually buying 4+ Provinces by the turn 15 "mid game" you listed.

Smithy/BM is faster than that and Smithy/BM is still super bad. It's also noteworthy that Smithy/BM doesn't help your opponent by removing bad cards from their deck.
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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2016, 02:58:43 pm »
0

Pirate Ship usually buying 4+ Provinces by the turn 15 "mid game" you listed.

Smithy/BM is faster than that and Smithy/BM is still super bad. It's also noteworthy that Smithy/BM doesn't help your opponent by removing bad cards from their deck.

Smithy/BM is not faster than that when playing against a Pirate Ship opponent who is stealing his treasure (Pirate Ship does not help Smithy/BM opponent).   In my earlier sim, Pirate Ship + FV had a ~80% win rate over Smithy/BM.    The same is true for numerous other strategies that emphasize treasure.  Also note that 4+ Provinces can include more than 4.    I'm not saying Pirate Ship is a strong card, just that that it can be important with the right kingdom/opponent, and this situation comes up often enough that it should not be ignored.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 03:03:08 pm by NolanA »
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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2016, 03:01:53 pm »
0

Pirate Ship usually buying 4+ Provinces by the turn 15 "mid game" you listed.

Smithy/BM is faster than that and Smithy/BM is still super bad. It's also noteworthy that Smithy/BM doesn't help your opponent by removing bad cards from their deck.

Smithy/BM is not faster than that when playing against a Pirate Ship opponent who is stealing his treasure (Pirate Ship does not help Smithy/BM opponent).   In my earlier sim, Pirate Ship + FV had a ~80% win rate over Smithy/BM.    The same is true for numerous other strategies that emphasize treasure.  Also note that 4+ Provinces can include more than 4.

It doesn't matter what its win rate is over Smithy/BM because nobody plays Smithy/BM.
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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2016, 03:06:53 pm »
+3

It doesn't matter what its win rate is over Smithy/BM because nobody plays Smithy/BM.

You compared it to Smithy/BM, so my reply also compared it to Smithy/BM.  If "nobody plays Smithy/BM", then why bother including it in the reply?  That said, plenty do play Smithy/BM in games with fewer expansions, which are the games where Smithy has the highest frequency of appearing as a kingdom card.  In the base game, Smithy/BM (or variants) are played and are a desirable strategy in a good portion of games.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 03:08:31 pm by NolanA »
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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2016, 03:09:47 pm »
+1

You compared it to Smithy/BM, so my reply also compared it to Smithy/BM.  If "nobody plays Smithy/BM", then why bother including it in the reply?

Because that's the point. A strategy that nobody plays is still a better strategy than Pirate Ship.
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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2016, 04:50:47 pm »
0

Because that's the point. A strategy that nobody plays is still a better strategy than Pirate Ship.

"Better than Pirate Ship", yet it only has a 14% win rate against Pirate Ship + FV in my earlier example.  It's not a simple better than or worse than relationship.  It depends on both the kingdom and opponent's strategy.  There is a time and place for both strategies.
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McGarnacle

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Re: Aleimon Thimble's top 30 favorite cards
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2016, 05:16:22 pm »
+1

We all know in our heart of hearts how great Counting House is. #JusticeforCountingHouse
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