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[paulbaxter]

...trash their provinces with bishops?!?!? You'd have to be pretty confident in your engine to turn 6 VP's into 5. I've won a couple of games now because of my opponents doing this. You would think the math would be fairly obvious.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Because it provides $1 that they need this turn to buy a new Province or other card that they'd rather not miss out on buying this turn. Because it's one less dead card in their deck for a cost of only 1VP.

There's two reasons for you right there.

[theory]

For instance, the "Golden Deck" works because you get down to Bishop - Gold - Gold - Silver - Province as your deck, and then each turn you trash Province and buy Province.  You're "losing" VP, but think of it instead as gaining 5VP a turn while running down the Provinces.

[petrie911]

The same reason you trash Estates at the beginning of the game.  You lose 1 point, but you no longer have a card wasting space in your deck.

[michaeljb]

Because it's one less dead card in their deck for a cost of only 1 VP.

This.

When you consider this, you may realize Bishoping a Province has the same effect on your deck is trashing an Estate. And who doesn't like trashing Estates?

And if you buy a Province that same turn, it's like improving an Estate directly to a Province--you gained 5 points without changing the number of dead cards in your deck.

[tlloyd]

The same reason you trash Estates at the beginning of the game.  You lose 1 point, but you no longer have a card wasting space in your deck.

Actually you are a point up after Bishoping an estate, you break even with Duchy, lose a point with Province and lose four points with Colony. 

[DStu]

...trash their provinces with bishops?!?!? You'd have to be pretty confident in your engine to turn 6 VP's into 5. I've won a couple of games now because of my opponents doing this. You would think the math would be fairly obvious.

You have to be pretty confident in your engine not to. Running a engine with 2 Provinces in your deck is easy. Doing so with 6 is hard...

[ecq]

The same reason you trash Estates at the beginning of the game.  You lose 1 point, but you no longer have a card wasting space in your deck.

Actually you are a point up after Bishoping an estate, you break even with Duchy, lose a point with Province and lose four points with Colony.

Extending this, if you've trashed your initial 3 Estates and 3 Provinces, you've broken even on total VP but have a deck with 6 fewer dead cards.

It depends on where you're at in the game.  If you're far behind or it's close and the game is ending soon, it's probably a bad idea.  If you really need that $1 right now or it's the mid-game, trashing the Province is appealing, barring more obvious targets (Duchy, Estate, Border Village, etc).

[chogg]

I won a game today where my opponent Bishoped a Colony.  I'll sometimes Bishop a Province, but rarely if ever consider Colonies.

[HiveMindEmulator]

The same reason you trash Estates at the beginning of the game.  You lose 1 point, but you no longer have a card wasting space in your deck.

Actually you are a point up after Bishoping an estate, you break even with Duchy, lose a point with Province and lose four points with Colony.

I think he meant to compare it to just plain trashing estates, not with bishop. Say, with your opponents bishop. If you're still at the point in the game when you'd freely trash an estate, you should also be willing to bishop a province.

[jsh357]

I won a game today where my opponent Bishoped a Colony.  I'll sometimes Bishop a Province, but rarely if ever consider Colonies.

The only time I'd ever trash a Colony with Bishop is in a Golden Deck/variant.  If the OP had been confused about that, I could sympathize more.  I've seen people Bishop Colonies late in the game and been quite perplexed.

I do enjoy Apprentice/Colony just for the hilarious 11 card draw, but it's more out of novelty.

[Kuildeous]

I think he meant to compare it to just plain trashing estates, not with bishop. Say, with your opponents bishop. If you're still at the point in the game when you'd freely trash an estate, you should also be willing to bishop a province.

Ah yes. I remember the early days when I was the first one in our group to read about the importance of trashing Estates and having everyone look at me like I was crazy for getting rid of those Estates. "That's a victory point!" I shared the good word about deck density

I generally won't Bishop away a Province at the end of the game, but I won't think anything of it if it's still early. I never compared it to trashing an Estate for no benefit, but that is a perfect comparison.

Bishoping a Colony I won't do. I'd have to be really far ahead to consider taking a 5-point loss.

[rotundo]

Sometimes your hand is Gold, Gold, Bishop, Province, Copper. What other choice do you have?

[Axxle]

Sometimes your hand is Gold, Gold, Bishop, Province, Copper. What other choice do you have?

Bishop the Gold, buy a duchy 

(if it's late enough in the game)

[Jorbles]

For instance, the "Golden Deck" works because you get down to Bishop - Gold - Gold - Silver - Province as your deck, and then each turn you trash Province and buy Province.  You're "losing" VP, but think of it instead as gaining 5VP a turn while running down the Provinces.

Out of curiosity, why is this considered the standard "Golden Deck"? Isn't it easier to get to Bishop - Gold - Silver - Silver - Province? Unless it's just because there's less Gold in the easier to achieve version.

[DrHades]

For instance, the "Golden Deck" works because you get down to Bishop - Gold - Gold - Silver - Province as your deck, and then each turn you trash Province and buy Province.  You're "losing" VP, but think of it instead as gaining 5VP a turn while running down the Provinces.

Out of curiosity, why is this considered the standard "Golden Deck"? Isn't it easier to get to Bishop - Gold - Silver - Silver - Province? Unless it's just because there's less Gold in the easier to achieve version.

Beeing able to buy a new Province without trashing the old one is sometimes very handy...

Sometimes your hand is Gold, Gold, Bishop, Province, Copper. What other choice do you have?

Trash a Copper buy a Gold. You prepare yourself to buy the new Province and not trashing the old one and also you are able to trash a Gold and buy a Gold in your next turn.

[WanderingWinder]

...make sure that point counter is used, then end the game with themselves behind, with no variable victory cards, and in games they're still very much in.

[ratxt1]

...make sure that point counter is used, then end the game with themselves behind, with no variable victory cards, and in games they're still very much in.

I see what you did there.

[Glooble]

I do enjoy Apprentice/Colony just for the hilarious 11 card draw, but it's more out of novelty.

Oh c'mon. If you're going to trash a Colony for the novelty, use Traders and run out the Silver pile...

[jsh357]

I do enjoy Apprentice/Colony just for the hilarious 11 card draw, but it's more out of novelty.

Oh c'mon. If you're going to trash a Colony for the novelty, use Traders and run out the Silver pile...

I remember when Trader was first put on Isotropic, my group spent 3 games intentionally running out Silvers with it.  Good times.

[michaeljb]

I won a Gardens game involving Trader where I finished with 30 Silvers in my deck. The funny thing was, my opponent's whole deck was 30 cards.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120105-192459-843995b1.html

[ecq]

It's more entertaining running out the Gold pile http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120116-200442-d34bbb90.html

[Kirian]

I won a game today where my opponent Bishoped a Colony.  I'll sometimes Bishop a Province, but rarely if ever consider Colonies.

The only time I'd ever trash a Colony with Bishop is in a Golden Deck/variant.  If the OP had been confused about that, I could sympathize more.  I've seen people Bishop Colonies late in the game and been quite perplexed.

I do enjoy Apprentice/Colony just for the hilarious 11 card draw, but it's more out of novelty.

Novelty?  I've won games by doing just that.  I've also had the very lucky Possession-Apprentice-Colony play.  Eeeevil.

[Dubdubdubdub]

I do enjoy Apprentice/Colony just for the hilarious 11 card draw, but it's more out of novelty.

Oh c'mon. If you're going to trash a Colony for the novelty, use Traders and run out the Silver pile...

A friend of mine was feeling Jolly and did this, even though there were only six more silvers in the supply. I'm pretty sure he'd stopped caring about winning a couple turns before and was just trolling us 'serious' players.

[chogg]

It's more entertaining running out the Gold pile http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120116-200442-d34bbb90.html

28 Golds?  You beat my record!
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111130-181516-71d0a7c5.html
Though you're still quite a ways from my single-turn record.

Still would love to see somebody get a PileDriver on Gold.

[kevinb9n]

I never compared it to trashing an Estate for no benefit, but that is a perfect comparison.

Well, it's not quite *perfect.*  Usually, your main alternative to bishoping that province was to bishop something else, like a copper, that would have got you 1 point anyway.  When that's the case, you really sacrificed *two* points for this move.

[Asklepios]

I never compared it to trashing an Estate for no benefit, but that is a perfect comparison.

Well, it's not quite *perfect.*  Usually, your main alternative to bishoping that province was to bishop something else, like a copper, that would have got you 1 point anyway.  When that's the case, you really sacrificed *two* points for this move.

That's why the +$1 difference is important. Plus, of course, if you trash the copper instead of the province, then later on you might draw the province instead of the copper, which is another -$1.

I think its almost always worth trashing the lowest value green card in hand with Bishop, at least until you're down to the last shuffle of the game.

It'd be interesting to see if simulators bear this out though.

Back to OPs, on the "why on earth..." topic, I'd like to know why on earth people waste their embargoes on embargoing the curse pile.

[theory]

Back to OPs, on the "why on earth..." topic, I'd like to know why on earth people waste their embargoes on embargoing the curse pile.

It's not uncommon to spend $2 on a one-time Silver, without any intention or desire of Embargoing anything.

[popsofctown]

Embargoing the cursers gives you the option of emptying the stack easily for a 3 pile win.

[Asklepios]

Embargoing the cursers gives you the option of emptying the stack easily for a 3 pile win.

I'd believe that if it happened late game with an opponent in the lead, but more often its done in the early turns of the game.

[WanderingWinder]

Embargoing the cursers gives you the option of emptying the stack easily for a 3 pile win.

I'd believe that if it happened late game with an opponent in the lead, but more often its done in the early turns of the game.

Eh, you can set it up early on sometimes. But most often, it's a sub-optimal play to embargo the curses, because people can't bear to block a card that they might want to buy, even if the opponent wants it more.

[Kuildeous]

Embargoing the cursers gives you the option of emptying the stack easily for a 3 pile win.

I'd believe that if it happened late game with an opponent in the lead, but more often its done in the early turns of the game.

Eh, you can set it up early on sometimes. But most often, it's a sub-optimal play to embargo the curses, because people can't bear to block a card that they might want to buy, even if the opponent wants it more.

I think this is the reason. In our games, we've had that happen before. Placing an embargo token should be a strategic move. The problem is that if you place the token on something you want, then you have just crapped where you eat. If you place the token on something else, then the other players are more likely to consider following your strategy now. And if there is a strategy change, then you end up looking at the card you just embargoed.

I do like placing the token on something that I already own (like if I own the only Torturer). That doesn't always happen, and I'll get the card and wonder where to put it. It has happened before that we put the token on Curse or Copper.

Also, some people don't like playing Curse games and don't want to ruin the other player's fun so they throw away that token. Suboptimal, true, but the player gets a kudo for caring enough about the other player to not ruin his fun. I personally would rather have the opponent choose the nastiest route for me to overcome, but you know.

[ecq]

I've embargoed the Curse pile early on very rare occasions.  There are two situations where this comes up:

1) I draw a $2 hand early and Embargo is the only decent card.  It becomes clear that I'm in a mirror match, but no one is in the lead.  I draw, say, $4 + Embargo.  My choice is to buy a Silver and save the Embargo or play the Embargo, buying a Gold or key $5 card.  Embargoing anything my opponent wants would hurt me just as much and slow down the game.

2) I'm playing someone who has a clearly sub-optimal strategy.  I don't want to Embargo cards he wants because I want him to continue digging his ditch.

[Asklepios]

I've embargoed the Curse pile early on very rare occasions.  There are two situations where this comes up:

1) I draw a $2 hand early and Embargo is the only decent card.  It becomes clear that I'm in a mirror match, but no one is in the lead.  I draw, say, $4 + Embargo.  My choice is to buy a Silver and save the Embargo or play the Embargo, buying a Gold or key $5 card.  Embargoing anything my opponent wants would hurt me just as much and slow down the game.

2) I'm playing someone who has a clearly sub-optimal strategy.  I don't want to Embargo cards he wants because I want him to continue digging his ditch.

In the first scenario, I'd suggest embargoing silver, as you're about to get a gold early in the game. Of course, if its not early game, and you're buying golds, then that wouldn't apply. As for not embargoing stuff your opponent wants... well, I'd do it anyway, so long as you have more copies of that card than your opponent. The disruption value of embargo is just too great to waste.

As for the second scenario... that's a tougher one. In that scenario, I'd normally embargo gold, as a suboptimal strategy is normally one that is slower to get to gold, so you'll likely have a gold lead. This would then encourage the opponent to stay in the suboptimal rut.

[chwhite]

If there's nothing you want embargoed... then embargo the Embargoes themselves. 

[Mean Mr Mustard]

I like to Embargo Provinces in lieu of anything else just to create psychological paralysis, sometimes causing weaker players to do all kinds of silly things.