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[ratxt1]

Mandarin/Mandarin/(Mandarin?)/Apprentice is the only one I'd be likely to actually go for.

just tested this out even with out a 5/5 split this is really fast on a colony board. The strategy being on your first 5 dollar buy, get 3 or 4 mandarins and than an apprentice than go BM apprentice. you can get 4 colonies under 20 turns pretty easily without trashing colonies.

[WanderingWinder]

Mandarin/Mandarin/(Mandarin?)/Apprentice is the only one I'd be likely to actually go for.

just tested this out even with out a 5/5 split this is really fast on a colony board. The strategy being on your first 5 dollar buy, get 3 or 4 mandarins and than an apprentice than go BM apprentice. you can get 4 colonies under 20 turns pretty easily without trashing colonies.

Which is pretty good but not like super great. I'd probably want 3 Mandarins.

[ehunt]

M/m/inn on a board with a high power seven was mentioned above, but I think the math doesn't work - you get 6 if you draw the inn (handsize reduction means you can't play both mandarins and keep a copper) and 4 if you don't.

[ratxt1]

Which is pretty good but not like super great. I'd probably want 3 Mandarins.

yea it isn't super good but it was faster than i expected.

[Anon79]

M/m/inn on a board with a high power seven was mentioned above, but I think the math doesn't work - you get 6 if you draw the inn (handsize reduction means you can't play both mandarins and keep a copper) and 4 if you don't.

The 6 buys a Gold, I was not implying that you can purchase the Forge on the first reshuffle. It's just that Forge then has an easy time matching both 5+3 (Mandarin + Silvers) & 6+2 (Gold + Estates), and you can start greening immediately upon getting the Forge and maybe even before getting the Forge.

[rinkworks]

More generally, on a $5/$5 Mandarin opening, what combos would YOU think would work?

Not many...
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Mandarin

Maybe I would think about Mandarin/Potion->Familiar if I start 5/2.

Ouch!

I wonder though, if these stats are skewed by several factors.

First, I suspect, many decent players regard Mandarin as a liability so avoid it, while many weak or average players buy anything just to try out cards. That might well result in Mandarin being played with less skill.

I think you're right, and not only because Mandarin/Feast is listed as one of the better Mandarin openings.

[WanderingWinder]

More generally, on a $5/$5 Mandarin opening, what combos would YOU think would work?

Not many...
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Mandarin

Maybe I would think about Mandarin/Potion->Familiar if I start 5/2.

Ouch!

I wonder though, if these stats are skewed by several factors.

First, I suspect, many decent players regard Mandarin as a liability so avoid it, while many weak or average players buy anything just to try out cards. That might well result in Mandarin being played with less skill.

I think you're right, and not only because Mandarin/Feast is listed as one of the better Mandarin openings.

Ironically, Mandarin is actually a card which gives you a reason to buy a feast with $5. When you feast a mandarin, those coppers don't get stuffed back on your deck.

[Davio]

Just tried Mandarin/Festival/Pawn.

Worked out pretty well against a BMU-esque deck.

[ycz6]

Mandarin/tactician might open possibilities with the right kingdom.

Mandarin/Tactician/Secret Chamber, perhaps? With a village on the board this could set up double-Tactician crazy fast.

[Loschmidt]

Mandarin/tactician might open possibilities with the right kingdom.

Mandarin/Tactician/Secret Chamber, perhaps? With a village on the board this could set up double-Tactician crazy fast.

I got a 2/5 split in this game with Mandarin on the board and I thought about this thread:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/28/game-20120228-195006-3698861e.html

Mandarin, Market and Tactician were on the board. So I opened Mandarin/Mandarin/Tactician. First time I've ever tried to set up a Double Tactican deck but I managed to get it to work for a few turns running. As I was doing it I realised that Mandarin/Mandarin/Market would probably have been better, because you need at least 5 markets (it was the only action as money besides mandarin) to be able to buy a province  ever turn and still fit in the tactician (5xMarket+Mandarin+Tactician)

Anyway with better support on the board I think Mandarin/Tactician would be pretty super quick

[jomini]

I haven't actually tried any of these, having generally avoided mandarin, but how do the following sound?

1. Mandarin/upgrade on a goons board. The idea being to either get mandarin with the upgrade for an early goons or to use the mandarin to buy upgrades & goons.
2. Mandarin/library/hamlet, basically setting up a disappearing cash & cards library deck on the quick. Possibly this might work better with two mandarins and then a library.
3. Mandarin/Mandarin/Hamlet on a menage board. The idea being to set up a quick menage engine from selective discarding & top decking with some disappearing coin.
4. Mandarin/Governor on a forge or KC board. The idea being to either remodel the mandarin into the 7 coin power card or to use a 7 card hand with the mandarin to buy the big card.

[Asklepios]

Nice thoughts.

Actually I'm thinking Mandarin (x1 to x3) followed by an Upgrade could be pretty decent, as even if you can't immediately upgrade the Mandarins you're thinning the deck to get closer into doing so. A quick gold can be pretty valuable.

Mandarin, then Upgrade, then Big Money seems pretty solid to me, perhaps even avoiding buying silvers at any time. Andif you hit $5 again you could even buy later Mandarins, safe in the knowledge that you have means to dispose of them.

[Fabian]

I'm open to the possibility that I'm dead wrong and my hatred for Mandarin openings just shows how little I understand about this game, but opening Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Upgrade and then upgrading a Mandarin into a Gold (best case scenario) on turn 5 isn't a "quick gold". In my mind, in nearly all these scenarios you're losing a turn to put a card in your deck you don't want.

1. Upgrade/nothing seems a lot better to me the times your opening buys don't immediately collide, which is pretty often.
2. I guess there's something brilliant in putting terrible cards back on the deck so you can draw them again. I'd suggest Library/Hamlet is better so you can keep playing (hopefully good) action cards after the Library, though. And, not draw that Estate twice and stuff.
3. If there's no better $5 cards around, I guess this could beat BM on some boards? Or better $4 cards. Or just Silver maybe. Again there's something brilliant in going through lots of trouble setting up sweet Menagerie draws so you can draw those Estates again.
4. Governor/nothing seems good here. Forge is probably a joke on a Governor board, KC is probably too slow a fair amount of the time unless (again) your openers happen to collide immediately, and if they don't, you've wasted a turn and have a bad card in your deck.

I mean, like with nearly everything, I'm sure there's corner cases where these cards come up, and no other card in the kingdom makes anything else viable, and it might actually be good. But it seems to me that this would be pretty rare. Or, I'm just dead wrong about Mandarin of course. Anyway, rereading this it might come off as harsh, I didn't mean it like that and I hope you don't take it like that.

[kn1tt3r]

I'm open to the possibility that I'm dead wrong and my hatred for Mandarin openings just shows how little I understand about this game, but opening Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Upgrade and then upgrading a Mandarin into a Gold (best case scenario) on turn 5 isn't a "quick gold". In my mind, in nearly all these scenarios you're losing a turn to put a card in your deck you don't want.

I tend to agree. Opening Silver/Silver you also got a decent chance of such an early Gold, AND you still have your opening buys, which you sacrifice (= waste) completely with this Mandarin thing.

[RisingJaguar]

I don't know if this has ever been talked about, but theoretically mandarin + Mint/FG can't be that bad.  I suppose you're setting yourself up for 6/4 loss, but I think it works quite nicely with FG. 

1. It provides the $3 for two FG collision totaling to $8 easier as opposed to waiting for 3 FG to collide. 
2. Has the courtyard properties to set up FG together.  This allows mandarin and 1 FG hand to move the FG to next hand.  If there's mandarin and 3FG, you can move a FG to next turn. 
3. The opening isn't so luck base, you can gain FG more consistently (mandarin and moving Mint/FG early to be together). 
4. It's probably not bad as a late buy either (off-topic). 

With all of this said, you waste a turn, and that turn is HUGE.  This is also a very corner case, but I am curious.

[DG]

Simulator says delay the mandarin purchase until you want to return two fool's gold to the draw deck mid game. It goes wrong by playing the mandarin with a hand of mint/fool's gold/mandarin but that's bad for mandarin regardless.

[AJD]

Mandarin/Mint opening with Venture on the board also has possibilities.

[jomini]

I'm open to the possibility that I'm dead wrong and my hatred for Mandarin openings just shows how little I understand about this game, but opening Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Upgrade and then upgrading a Mandarin into a Gold (best case scenario) on turn 5 isn't a "quick gold". In my mind, in nearly all these scenarios you're losing a turn to put a card in your deck you don't want.

1. Upgrade/nothing seems a lot better to me the times your opening buys don't immediately collide, which is pretty often.
2. I guess there's something brilliant in putting terrible cards back on the deck so you can draw them again. I'd suggest Library/Hamlet is better so you can keep playing (hopefully good) action cards after the Library, though. And, not draw that Estate twice and stuff.
3. If there's no better $5 cards around, I guess this could beat BM on some boards? Or better $4 cards. Or just Silver maybe. Again there's something brilliant in going through lots of trouble setting up sweet Menagerie draws so you can draw those Estates again.
4. Governor/nothing seems good here. Forge is probably a joke on a Governor board, KC is probably too slow a fair amount of the time unless (again) your openers happen to collide immediately, and if they don't, you've wasted a turn and have a bad card in your deck.

I mean, like with nearly everything, I'm sure there's corner cases where these cards come up, and no other card in the kingdom makes anything else viable, and it might actually be good. But it seems to me that this would be pretty rare. Or, I'm just dead wrong about Mandarin of course. Anyway, rereading this it might come off as harsh, I didn't mean it like that and I hope you don't take it like that.

I don't think upgrade/nothing works out as well as Mandarin/Upgrade/nothing. Here's why.

Upgrade/null has a 4% chance of getting a second upgrade on T3 and less than an 8% chance of picking it up on T4. The only way to get a second upgrade is to draw exactly 5 coppers. Otherwise, you out of luck and buying silver unless you have another good card at 3 or 4. Until T5, there is a 0% chance of getting a goons.

Mandarin/Upgrade/Null has many ways to get high power cards on T4:
1. It can also hit 5 coppers - which unlike Upgrade/null means next turn you likely will be able to get something good (maybe even a third upgrade).
2. It can hit 2c/mandarin/whatever - a very statistically likely hand that gets you an upgrade.
3. It can hit mandarin/upgrade and get a killer early goons.
4. It can hit 3c/Mandarin/whatever and get a goons

I could be wrong on this, but I think Mandarin/Upgrade would lose tempo early to upgrade/nothing, but gain it back later through the purchase of additional upgrades or by upgrading the mandarin to a killer six coin card (i.e. goons).

For Mandarin/Library vs hamlet/library, yes you draw a "crappy" card again, but you have gotten 3 coin for the privilege. Hamlet/Library needs some a strong source of cash and playing Mandarin eats an action, lets you draw one additional card (to replace the mandarin), and takes an action. So if you have the actions, then Mandarin's next effect in library/hamlet engine is -1 action, +3 coins, +1 card. That is not bad. It is no worse than any other terminal silver you'd spam in a library/hamlet engine to keep the draw coming and argueably better if there is any trashing (e.g. forge or spice merchant) as you can double dip on cards to put back (e.g. play hamlet, mandarin, library, hamlet, mandarin and place the same estate back twice). Forge in particular would tempt me mandarin/lib/hamlet as I can quickly forge to a gold and toss all but a few coppers in one go.

3. So you draw the estate (more likely copper) again? Who cares? You now have +3 coin and +2 more cards. Yeah it isn't as good as festival, but playing you'd move through your deck more quickly, and get up to 8 without buying golds (though I'd likely get one).

4. Governor/KC is blindingly amazing. It's almost as good as hitting a TM (yeah I know the other players get silvers, the golds go into your discard, etc. - it still is almost that good). As an added bonus late game, anyone looking to remodel their gold into a province has to worry that you will remodel a KC into a province as well. KC/Mandarin is an assured province or plat; and you can get cards out of your hand and still play it. My only real question is, will governor/nothing be faster than the Mandarin. Like with upgrade you lose a turn, like with upgrade you have many more options on T4 to hit KC. Forge and governor work quite well togethor; the only real trouble is the opportunity cost of forge. Your opponents will likely increase your size, send you silver etc. and you can then forge silver + governor into a province or silver + estate into more governors.

[PerdHapley]

What I'm most curious about with Mandarin opens is $5 treasures, specifically Royal Seal and IGG. As far as IGG goes, in a 5/2 split I would think it could be a pretty awesome choice of opening terminal while still handing the opponent a curse before the first reshuffle, but I've never seen a set where this was actually a possibility. Has anyone tried this in practice?

And for Royal Seal, it seems right to me that in situations where you would already want to open RS then going Mandarin first would be practically automatic. For some reason I feel like I've seen this one a number of times and go for it without even thinking. The only sample game I could find is this one (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120229-225011-b96bde07.html), where there are about a million other things going on and Mandarin is only a real force in the endgame. It certainly didn't hurt though, and I was happy to already have it when we got to that point. Related side note: this card can be an absolute beast in King's Court games if you set it up properly.

And, just throwing it out there, TFB stuff like remake and apprentice has been brought up a bunch already, but what about as a supplement to Chapel? Say, in the absence of cursing and with something like Festival/Bazaar/etc..

[^_^_^_^]

I wonder how often Mandarin was played in Donald X.'s testing, and how was it used?

[PerdHapley]

I wonder how often Mandarin was played in Donald X.'s testing, and how was it used?

A ton, I am sure. Play-testing for this game is pretty extensive, and Mandarin was one of the first cards Donald himself highlighted when previewing the set. It's one of the things that makes Hinterlands such an interesting set overall: many of the cards in it gave drastically different first impressions. Go look at the initial discussion of JoaT and IGG if you want a nice laugh. The community did pretty quickly figure those cards out, but Mandarin, along with, in my opinion, Develop, another underrated and frequently misused card, is still far from being well understood by even the top players. And the set came out MONTHS ago. I'm sure Donald's team had really good reasons for keeping it around, and they probably spent much more time collectively figuring out its uses than we have.

Seriously, it makes me wonder if Donald browses threads like this one and laughs at all of us. I hope that when Iso is gone and every expansion has been released he starts showing up on the official app and thoroughly crushing everyone.

[Fabian]

Perd,

Looking forward to you crushing everyone with any sweet Mandarin/x/x/x/x/x opening in the near future! Also Develop.

To be clear, if I had to put money on Donald+team being sort of decentish players vs super mega gods, I'd put my money on the former.

[PerdHapley]

Perd,

Looking forward to you crushing everyone with any sweet Mandarin/x/x/x/x/x opening in the near future! Also Develop.

To be clear, if I had to put money on Donald+team being sort of decentish players vs super mega gods, I'd put my money on the former.

Fair enough. I think you may be slightly exaggerating things though - the less wordy version of my point is that there is still possibly a lot of potential in these oddball cards and that the game's creator is probably more aware of that than we are. Whatever the rest of his team is like, I would bet that Donald, at least, is an excellent player.

It's not like I'm saying Mandarin/Develop are secretly incredible cards, just maybe not quite as bad as their reputations.

And whatever totally dominant Mandarin/x/x/x/x strategies there are out there, don't get your hopes up that I'll do something stupid next time we play  .... or at least, not on purpose

[jonts26]

Since Donald already had a good deal of the cards created before the base set was even released, you also need to keep cards in mind from future expansions which can potentially improve their effectiveness. Many cards have jumped or fallen in general effectiveness with the release of new expansions.

Maybe mandarin and develop have super combos with cards from Dark Ages.

[Fabian]

Perd,

I would agree there's still possibly a lot of potential in those oddball cards. I would disagree Donald probably knows more about it than the top players on this forum (baseless speculation is fun!)

As for my own opinion, I think both Mandarin and Develop certainly have their uses (and maybe more potential!), but both are generally very bad openers, and very much deserving of their reputations as such, Mandarin especially so. I would very much enjoy if you and/or Donald proved me wrong.