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[mail-mi]

diedre's critical lurking/actilurking just can't come from scum, not as bad as it is. Especially with Calamitas as his partner, who was pretty active throughout the game.

Calamitas is in his beginning of day 3 lynchpool, which also includes Gkreig (almost IC) and RR (who we lynched). I don't think he puts his partner in his narrow lynch pool like that without including me or SA, who were also on the lynch table.

Haha... LOL
He are against me and people think we are partners. That a partnership!

"He" is Calamitas, here. I can see a newbie!scum partnership with Calamitas, and diedre saying this because he actually is a partner with him. he also in 799 says "I am not a partner of mail-mi," in response to SA's "figuring out teams" post. They pair diedre with RR, Calamitas, and me, and he only comments on me, and then in the next post Calamitas. I don't quite know what to make of this, but it makes him scummier.

diedre is heavily OMGUSing for almost all of his scum reads. Would Calamitas have warned him against that in the scum QT? I think so. So slight town points.

"Can I just kill myself?!" Very much townie. I can't conceive of anyone as scum or with a PR being this frustrated and bored of the game. I can only think of a VT being like this.

So, from my reread, a lot of it is kind of "too scummy to be scum." Even Calamitas, a fellow newbie, would have educated him against this. Also I read his frustration as genuine, but that's only slightly more likely to be scummy than townie.

[mail-mi]

Time for some wagon analysis.

Final Day 1 Vote Count

Sooner or later, the day comes when you can’t hide from the things that you’ve done any more.

SpaceAnemone (1): Roadrunner
Seprix (1): SpaceAnemone
Calamitas (1): gkrieg
teamlyle (6): mail-mi, silverspawn, diedre, EFHW, iguana, chairs

Not Voting (3): Seprix, Calamitas, teamlyle

teamlyle has been lynched!  With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

Final Day 2 Vote Count

You'll forgive me, Madam President, if I don't wish to be executed based solely on your... gut feeling.

chairs (5): diedre, Calamitas, gkrieg, iguana, SA
SA (2): mail-mi, chairs
Calamitas (1): silver

Not Voting (1): RR

chairs has been lynched!  With 9 alive, it took 5 to lynch.

Final Day 3 Vote Count

I saw a star explode and send out the building blocks of the Universe. Other stars, other planets and eventually other life. A supernova! Creation itself! I was there. I wanted to see it and be part of the moment. And you know how I perceived one of the most glorious events in the universe? With these ridiculous gelatinous orbs in my skull!

SA (3): mail-mi, RR, diedre
RR (4): gkrieg, iguana, Calamitas, SA

Roadrunner7671 has been lynched!  With 7 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

The first two days' vote counts make SA look townier, because they and Calamitas didn't do the whole "one off one on" thing, which isn't a hard-and-fast rule, but it is usually good. The last day makes them look really bad, which isn't made up for by the first two. gkreig started the wagon on RR (and if he wasn't basically IC to me that would be pretty scummy), and Calamitas probably was more than happy to move his vote to the only other lynch candidate than partner!SA. I haven't actually reread the end of day 3, so I'm not sure that's how it actually happened, but it does not look good.

I actually don't know how diedre looks from these wagons. The first one makes him seem worse, but having him and Calamitas both the first two on the chairs wagon? Seems really risky to me, not one the newbie scum team would be willing to take. And then the last day is pretty null. So overall, this didn't tell me very much at all about diedre.

[SpaceAnemone]

I already said that trying to argue both at once is tiring! And I did in fact also point out in there that if Calamitas had been in a scum QT with me I'd have had a better communication channel in which to get to know him and stop him from making quite such a spectacular pronoun-fail.

uh where? i didn't see that in your post.

Last sentence of #895: "If I'd had a scum QT with Calamitas, you can bet I'd have sorted out the pronouns issue with him the moment it arose".

The male to female ratio is like 16 to 1 I think, and "he" is just my default pronoun.

I find this problematic on several levels :-(

[mail-mi]

I already said that trying to argue both at once is tiring! And I did in fact also point out in there that if Calamitas had been in a scum QT with me I'd have had a better communication channel in which to get to know him and stop him from making quite such a spectacular pronoun-fail.

uh where? i didn't see that in your post.

Last sentence of #895: "If I'd had a scum QT with Calamitas, you can bet I'd have sorted out the pronouns issue with him the moment it arose".

The male to female ratio is like 16 to 1 I think, and "he" is just my default pronoun.

I find this problematic on several levels :-(

Oh, I was asking that about the first sentence.

I never said it was a good thing.

[SpaceAnemone]

I already said that trying to argue both at once is tiring! And I did in fact also point out in there that if Calamitas had been in a scum QT with me I'd have had a better communication channel in which to get to know him and stop him from making quite such a spectacular pronoun-fail.

uh where? i didn't see that in your post.

Last sentence of #895: "If I'd had a scum QT with Calamitas, you can bet I'd have sorted out the pronouns issue with him the moment it arose".

Oh, I was asking that about the first sentence.

That would be the sentence right before the one I quoted, then: "I just don't have the time/mental energy to keep correcting people and to fight what feels like a losing battle for town at the same time without letting one thing derail the other."

[diedre91]

I also feel like his messing up by calling SA he over and over again is forced.

Gkrieg, this is just out of line. I have already said that I find the pronouns issue personally offensive, and you're implying that I might have been encouraging it for the sake of looking like a non-scum-partner? It's absolutely not okay for anyone to encourage others to act in a discriminatory or insensitive way about a minority just to win a game, and that's pretty much what your suggestion there amounts to.

I let one or two instances of misgendering on the part of non-native English speakers slide because their language usage backgrounds might be a little different... see the fact that I haven't even complained about deidre's post at #882 yet. I just don't have the time/mental energy to keep correcting people and to fight what feels like a losing battle for town at the same time without letting one thing derail the other. If I'd had a scum QT with Calamitas, you can bet I'd have sorted out the pronouns issue with him the moment it arose.

I am sorry. "They" it will be from now on (I hope remembering that)...

[gkrieg13]

Ok fine I'll do some rereading.  Although I think we should still no lynch after I give my 2 cents.

[diedre91]

Day 4 Start

As comms came back, the group once again realised that their numbers had been reduced during the period of static.  They'd come to expect the intermittent deaths, but each was acutely aware that as their numbers dwindled, not only did their chance of being next increase, but the chance of their mission's success gradually approached zero.

Conversations started once more, and they managed to determine that only four of them remained.  Once again, the static had claimed two lives.  Someone claimed to have seen the debris from one of the missing Raptors, and that in the twisted wreckage they had seen a body torn in half, and amongst the protruding bones a spinal cord of some strange metal that, as they watched, began to glow red.  A Cylon!  Or what remained. 

Was that ruined creature the only one left, or were there more murdering toasters among the four remaining ships?

iguanaiguana died during the night.  They were Karl Agathon, the Macho Tracker.

Calamitas died during the night. They were Leoben Conoy, the Cylon Goon.

Day 4 begins now and will end at 2pm forum time, 18th September.

Could you explain me why two people died during last night? Usually it should be one, right?

[mail-mi]

Scum killed one, and gkreig killed the other. Gkreig told is he was a 1-shot vig, but he's actually a non-consecutive-night vig.

[diedre91]

ok, thanks!

gkrieg, do you believe voting "no lynch" we really have more chances to hit scum at the next day?
If SA is really the scum left, I have to sacrifice myself for the greater good.
Certainly, they we kill me during the day (supposing that this scenario stays the same).

[diedre91]

Certainly, they we kill me during the day (supposing that this scenario stays the same).

I meant night.

[Haddock]

This comes rather too late, since I debated with myself whether I should get involved with this at all.

I am at this point making a formal announcement asking that all players do better with their pronoun usage.  The issue as it stands now seems to be under control and I will not be punishing anyone at this point.  However, consistent incorrect pronoun usage can be quite harmful to the player(s) in question, and is arguably a violation of the Golden Rule. 

From here on all players should be making every effort to use the correct pronouns for one another.  I do not wish to take any action at this late stage of the game, but I reserve the right to do so if the issue continues.

[gkrieg13]

Just for the record, I will make things clear, I don't believe that SA and Calamitas planned to incorrectly use pronouns as some sort of distancing tactic.  I believe that Calamitas might have thought how he would react if he didn't share a QT with SA, and acted accordingly.  To me it felt not genuine, as it seemed that Calamitas knew that "he" was not the correct pronoun for SA. 

That was only one observation in the case.  And I don't think that if SA and Calamitas did share a QT that the problem would come up at all anyway.  You never reference your scum partner as he/she/they when you are only in a QT with them (which would be the case here).  You would always use "you" because you are talking directly with the person.  I don't think the use of "he" when referencing to SA has anything normally to do with being their partner, just that it felt strangely forced in the case of Calamitas referencing SA as "he".

Hopefully that is clear.

In rereading SA, they put Calamitas repeatedly as a town read and defend him each time a wagon is suggested. 

Relevant Quotes:

Okay, I need to get posting some thoughts!

First up, town: Calamitas and Silver both seem more solvy and helpful here than I've seen them elsewhere.

Nulls: RR, Iguana, diedre.

Slight scum: Mail-mi, because of the way the mislynch of teamlyle got started.

Scum: Chairs. I'm not sure whether pushing that wagon to L-2 is a great idea now that we have a precedent for invisible votes, though -- would people in general be comfortable with that?

Really not sure: Gkrieg. I mean, I want to believe he's solvy town, but there are a few tiny threads that don't quite sit right for me. The first is the exchange below with Silver, since I agree that Seprix's words as quoted look like a hedgey attack, rather than a defence.

Kinda defends silverspawn here:

On the other hand EFHW's and iguana's reactions to my posts just seem more natural for someone who's a lot more social than me. Silver's looking to exploit the opportunity

Yeah, SS's reads feel opportunistic to me as well. He plays that way though, but considering he's been scum pretty much every time lately, I would still present that as part of a potential case.

That is not a defense. That is an attack.

The second thing was that in post #252, he picked out Seprix's use of the word "trait" in post #237 ("Also, can double voting or hating be a town trait?"), and said "Not too much to go off of, but he was definitely dropping that he was a traitor like the whole game". That would be fine, but Seprix's words were mimicking Chair's language of post #230 ("I'd actually argue hated is more likely a Town trait, in this theme, but that's just me."), and given that he's also building a case on Chairs, something feels contradictory about his not mentioning that.

Last and possibly least, there was a comment quite early in D1 from Gkrieg about liking the new Mail-mi, but at that point I didn't think Mail-mi had said all that much, so I found it odd. I have no idea what Mail-mi was like previously, though, and haven't read any Mail-mi games, so it may just be such a marked difference that even with a handful of posts it was obvious.

I also don't feel like the Calamitas wagon is the right way to go either. He did some really towny stuff, and he's kind of being accused of scumminess for the same sorts of behaviour I'm being accused for, except he says he's been on vacation, and for me it's major work deadlines. Here's some towny stuff that some of you might be overlooking, though:

Post #249, pointing out Seprix's traitor breadcrumbing before anyone else had mentioned it. If he were scum, that just gives extra info to town without adding anything for scum, who'd already have been aware of the situation at flip time if not before.

This from post #275:

1. Town PR with NK has got the traitor hint. But they could have outed their doubts on Day 1. Of course, mafia could have killed Seprix and the PR efhw but I don't see any reason for a town PR to kill efhw. He wasn't really scummy at all.

The first assumption is off, because we know gkrieg only formed his suspicions in twilight after it was too late to do anything about it in the lynch. But if we trust gkrieg, then we know that it was EFHW who was the scum NK.. and if Calamitas is scum, would he be anywhere near as likely to misgender her, given that presumably these kills are discussed in faction chat? This only holds if his supposed scumbuddy is not diedre, but that covers a lot of cases, so I feel it's worth a mention.

Finally, post #405: he mentioned mafiascum.net in his case. I find that really townie, because he's not afraid to back up his source. Compare that to much of the other assumptions we have about how things in this game are working, many of which have simply been declared by gkrieg/Silver as they push us along.

If he was scum, he would know that not mafia only has one night kill.

Though it also looks like he knows there's only two scum, when we don't know that for sure...


So I guess they kind of cancel out. I'll go back to vote: SA

Wait, what? Can you re-word that to help me follow what your argument is even trying to say?

Also vote: mail-mi because now I really do start to see the whole opportunism argument made by Silver earlier.

My general feelings at the moment are:
Towns: Silver, Iguana, gkrieg, Calamitas
Nulls: diedre, RR (but I should give more scrutiny next time through)
Scummy: Mail-mi

how about we don't lynch chairs and lynch calamitas instead?

I don't know.  The fact that he has stayed this long at L-1 should say something.  What makes chairs so townie in your book?  Like what is the town motivation behind his game?

Just a query... would it be impolite for me to hammer, given that Mail-mi already posted intent? I'm not sure what the etiquette is there. Iguana seemed persuadable too, I think, though I'm phone-posting so it's complicated to go back and check right now :-P

I'd rather see Chairs lynched than Calamitas, but my gut would rather vote Mail-mi over either of them.

I tried to post this late last night (like 8pm forum time), but it wasn't working and I needed to sleep. I think it's still valid in spite of intervening posts,

Three mafia + a traitor makes more sense with my uber role than 2 mafia + a traitor. I'm going to assume we're at LyLo.

Wow, okay.

I'm pretty comfortable with a diedre lynch -- he's made so few posts in-game that are useful for alignment purposes, so re-reading him didn't take very long at all. If there are three scums left, we need to be really careful not to start an easy mislynch wagon for them to pile onto all of a sudden.

If Calamitas didn't target anyone, that just means he's not the one who made the NK, but could still be on the scum team, right? Though I've read him as quite towny for a while now.

Lastly, if we're at LyLo, would now be a good time to push RR for an explanation the weirdness around the mod info, and his sudden vote for diedre at the start of D2?

I really want a top two lynch pool from SA, diedre, and Calamitas.

Did you mean Mail-mi instead of Calamitas there? You had Mail-mi on your list above, and had said previously you wanted to take Calamitas off the table for today.

As it stands, if you think the whole scumteam is within that list, you're hypothesizing a fully newbie team. In my re-reads, I've been looking at interactions between pairs of people in my lynchpool (which is diedre, Mail-mi, Calamitas and RR, obviously), but I'm kind of down-weighting the prior on diedre-Calamitas because I feel like the mislynches have happened rather too well for a totally inexperienced scum team.

Hmmmmm.  I don't really like this wagon though...

Well, either diedre comes in and quickhammers me, in which case you've got a scum, or the pair you're looking for is RR and Mail-mi, who're already on my wagon. So at least I'm being more informative tonight :-/

Calamitas was evil?? I was really sure he was townie!! :-(

I'd assumed that the reason people took him off the table yesterday was that he was probably Iguana's backup, since otherwise town seemed too prone to be swingy, given the weakness of all the claimed town roles.

If I also trust your theory that both sums are newbies, then I guess a vote: diedre is in order.

PS: hi from some very antisocial phone posting in the middle of my cousin's wedding ceilidh :-P

[gkrieg13]

Sorry for not being that active as you are guys. Got pretty busy week.
I did not expect that much commitment from the players.
As I told already, it is also my first game. It is hard to follow the posts sometimes.
Here it goes what I think, how I see other players.

silverspawn: Scum. His comments sound pretty scummy. Also convinced by the others.
SpaceAnemone: Town. Not much to say.
gkrieg: Not sure. Very active. It could be that he is playing like this to fool us.
Roadrunner: Since the beggining I though he was town. That is why I told he was wrong about voting on me. I still believe he is town.
chairs: Scum. gkrieg and Calamitas convinced me.
iguana: Town. Few posts but seems trustworthy.
mail-mi: no idea. Pretty confused about him.
Calamitas: Town. Pretty sure about this one.

I am back! (after being prod and after forum downtime)
How I am supposed to post if the forum does not stay on? 

And people (me included) lynched a town again! We all suck!
With 7 players left and only one scum dead, I am hopeless.

My lynchpool now is: Gkrieg, RR and Calamitas.

These are really only the two relevant quotes for diedre with Calamitas. 

It also just kills me that SA chose to target diedre today.  I would love to hear a case from them.

[gkrieg13]

mail-mi's relevant quotes

That's pretty convincing.

Will vote for Calamitas if SA doesn't happen.

Here's a thought: chairs came in, posted a meme, and had an unproductive conversation with me.

Posting just to post and say "I'm here!" Without actually posting anything of substance. Scummy.

Oh, you think chairs is scum now? Good job Sherlock 

I have since the beginning of the day.

Current lynchpool, in order of preference:
SA
Chairs
Calamitas

SA (and silver for that matter), why do you think I'm being opportunistic? Again, I had like no scumreads D1 except teamlyle, and today my scum reads are currently you, chairs, and Calamitas to an extent.

Gkreig, I guess I kinda fall in between you and silver on Calamitas, null leaning on scummy.

I'll pretty much just sheep iguana here. He and gkreig are definitely off the lynch table, and I'm willing to take Calamitas off the table too.


Yeah maybe a massclaim would be good.

Okay the lynchpool is bigger than I thought. SA, Mail Mi, Calamitas and diedre.

You're in the lynchpool, and I am at least taking Calamitas out for today, because of the tracker result.

he's definitely not an IC but i think he's good to take out today.

I didn't get it either really, since I've never actually seen a town redirector.

I'm actually inclined to believe everyone. Iguana and you are obvious, and Calamitas seems genuine.

Well, let's take silver off the lynch table for today.

Silver, why the sudden Calamitas scum read? I thought his response to iguana was pretty null, only a little bit scummy if anything. Do you have a case?

I do consider swearing about the game to be overreacting.

F#$K this game, being an IC is boring. I'm used to having at the very least 3 votes on me all game long.

Unvote

I dunno know who to vote for. Probably I'll sheep silver after he does his case.

vote: iguana for overreacting!

vote: SA

I guess I could be convinced on Calamitas, though I'd prefer SA or chairs, maybe diedre.

[gkrieg13]

So from these, diedre is 100% not scum.  I just can't see it in a million years.

Calamitas had an opportunity to jump on the SA wagon and hammer, but didn't, which if SA is town, I just don't get why you don't hammer there.  Maybe he was saving SA for a mislynch today?

[gkrieg13]

Some relevant posts from Calamitas.  Although the biggest is that he doesn't vote for anyone all D3 and then puts RR at L-1 without even rereading him at all.  I mean SA just has to be scum.  Why would someone do that and not just hammer the easy town that is a consensus scum read at that point.  I just don't understand it.

Good to see silver is back at a level where I don't understand his actions at all. He is too experienced to unintentionally be that flip-floppy but I cannot see which kind of reactions he wants to provoke. Space's post might be actually kind of a scumslip but I think carelessness is the likelier option here. I cannot speak for others but I find I still don't like chairs post about the traitor. The double-voting part of the case about him is almost neglicable, but the traitor part might be an actual scumslip. The option he is neglecting by assumption is even the standard version at mafiascum.net (don't know if it is handled differnetly here). Therefore, confirm vote: chairs . I don't like diedres inactivity either but I am not sure if it is scummy inactivity or just lack of time. Pretty much nullread on the rest, have to re-read them and will write about them when I get some time later.

Anyway, I'm very interested in iguanas announced statement about silver.

My top two lynch pool by now is {roadrunner, mail-mi}.
Roadrunner is mainly there because I don't remember anything helpful this game, however I haven't reread him yet. Mail-mi is there mainly due to PoE, for it's own he is a nullread (though I haven't reread him as well yet), but the second best choice right now IMO. Both, diedre and Space seem more towny than him by now.

My lynch preference list looks therefore like that:
 - Roadrunner
 - Mail
 - Diedre
 - Space

Not sure what to think of mail-mi's case on SA. On the one hand some actions presented are definitely scummy on its own, even though I kind of believe most of SA's explanations (e.g. #315) the overall scum-rating is probably too high to deny. Especially the unvote in #422 is just scummy, sheeping is absolutely inconsistent to his other behavior (e.g. criticizes multiple wagons).
Therefore unvote my vote on diedre, don't think anymore lynching him is the right way to go. SAs is probably still not my favorite choice, but I could live with it.

Too many willing to Lynch Space and Deidre, not enough want to Lynch Roadrunner. His play is similar to Olympics and his defense is pretty bad.

Don't have the time to compare those two games right now, but I agree with the bad defense part. Probably he is the best option by now. vote: RR L-1

[mail-mi]

And I reread SA yesterday. And with what gkreig is bringing up, I think they are the last scum. I mean, it could be diedre, but it's just so much more likely SA.

vote: SA

[gkrieg13]

And I reread SA yesterday. And with what gkreig is bringing up, I think they are the last scum. I mean, it could be diedre, but it's just so much more likely SA.

vote: SA

What reasons do you have for it being SA?

unvote

I want some good reasons from both you and diedre please

[mail-mi]

And I reread SA yesterday. And with what gkreig is bringing up, I think they are the last scum. I mean, it could be diedre, but it's just so much more likely SA.

vote: SA

What reasons do you have for it being SA?

unvote

I want some good reasons from both you and diedre please

Read my reread that I posted on day 3. All of those things still apply.

[gkrieg13]

vote: SA

If it really was mail-mi/Calamitas, gg wp.

[SpaceAnemone]

In rereading SA, they put Calamitas repeatedly as a town read and defend him each time a wagon is suggested. 

Yeah, that's because I thought he was acting townie :-( He was being accused of similar "scummy" stuff to me, and is also a newbie, though he lasted a whole lot longer than I did in our first game. The piece of evidence I have that you don't is that I'm definitely a VT here, so when I felt like he and I were in the same boat, I inferred incorrectly that he was also innocent.

Then when roles started coming out, the reason I continued to read him as un-scummy was that he said his role was equivalent to VT, and the only one I could find in a list of popular roles over at mafiascum was a backup sort of role, which suddenly clicked with the fact that all the town roles except for iguana's seemed really weak, so I figured that the thing you and Mail-mi would have concluded was that he's a backup for Iguana. Of course, I didn't know you were lying about the one-shot thing at the time, though I understand why that was a good idea... it just didn't occur to me when I was thinking things through that people would be lying about stuff like that -- the vast majority of real-life werewolf games I've played had entirely open set-ups where we knew exactly what roles there were to start with (but we didn't get any "flip" info when people died). Anyway, it added up to a bit of confirmation bias where I got more sure he was innocent because I thought you and Mail-mi were leaning that way too.

So yeah, I'm guilty of reading badly, and of being taken in by scum playing a good game, but absolutely not guilty of being scum.

[SpaceAnemone]

It also just kills me that SA chose to target diedre today.  I would love to hear a case from them.

You're essentially an IC as far as anyone is willing to argue, and you're the one who said it has to be a newbie scum team, and what other newbies am I left voting for? I have so little information to go on, so I'm left having to trust stuff you've said. In contrast, you've got a PR, which you lied about, meaning my reasoning based on it was screwy, because I wasn't experienced enough to have noticed that it was a possibility. You've also just got lots more experience in forum mafia than I have, and you've shown you're better at reads by shooting Calamitas and Seprix in the night.

In addition to that stuff, diedre is just being such a derp-newbie that I find it forced and unbelievable. I just find it easier to believe that someone's faking it than to believe he's really not sure about half of the stuff he asks such obvious questions about. The latest example is the NK last night, though that's after I put my vote on him. Anyway, I put the vote there because I'm suspicious of him, and also because I wanted to be first on a scummy person, rather than hammering a townie person, and I'd hoped things might progress while I was stuck unable to post for the next day.

Also, as for me and hammering, when I first had the opportunity to hammer chairs (which you were strongly encouraging), you scumread me for backing out when I said I wasn't really sure and didn't want to take the decision when I was just on a short break in the middle of a business meeting and couldn't consider things properly. So then I did finally hammer him and he was town after all, and that was bad :-( With RR, too, you were asking for someone to hammer, and it looked like it had to be him or me, so I followed you. And then that was bad too. I agree that record doesn't look good, but you've seen the lengths I've gone to to tabulate interactions and look for scum tells, and all that stuff just isn't working out for me, so having a town person to trust was appealing.

[gkrieg13]

SA I just want you to put together a case on mail-mi or diedre that shows they are scummier than you. The largest thing that makes you scummy is that Calamitas had the chance to hammer you for a long time and didn't, but jumped on RR very quickly

[SpaceAnemone]

SA I just want you to put together a case on mail-mi or diedre that shows they are scummier than you. The largest thing that makes you scummy is that Calamitas had the chance to hammer you for a long time and didn't, but jumped on RR very quickly

Presumably he kept me alive because I was townreading him and he (and possibly his scumbuddy) are capitalizing on that. I feel like things might have worked out better for town if I'd been lynched instead of RR, which seems really sad, but my inconvenient self-preservation kicked in... I mean, I still struggle to see how it's good for town to have a townie dead, but you guys have been so focused on how scummy I look that you're missing one of the real scums entirely.

That feels more like I should be putting together a case on Mail-mi, since diedre hardly says anything. You've also said you don't believe the scum is diedre.. is that definitely true? I can do a Mail-mi case, but it will take a while, and it's almost 1am here so I have to get to bed right now. Would you care to take me off L-1 for tonight so I can do a re-read tomorrow?