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[ashersky]

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[ashersky]

faust: once the lynch is confirmed, would you do me a favor and go ahead and thank chairs for screwing up his own plan on behalf of your partners?

Also, no need to troll after the lynch is confirmed, you can just own up to being scum.

[iguanaiguana]

Okay, who screwed up!?

Obviously chairs, right? Which is too bad because he was on the track to being MVP. I'm tempted to say ash is town because of the way he pushed the ghoul plan.

Ashersky is too clever to not push the Ghoul plan. He's a solid scum player, and a huge risk taker. Don't assume he is town for only that reason.

Plus, it was not him that came up with the plan, but chairs. Of course after the plan was out, everyone realized that we had to do it.

Ash is right that he didn't claim to come up with Chairs' plan. I got that misunderstanding from this post, where Faust is not actually claiming that either. My bad.

[iguanaiguana]

faust: once the lynch is confirmed, would you do me a favor and go ahead and thank chairs for screwing up his own plan on behalf of your partners?

Also, no need to troll after the lynch is confirmed, you can just own up to being scum.

You're being ridiculous and petty. I haven't even voted yet. I'm just doing a reread. Of course I'm going to find you scummy, from my perspective you have 50% odds of being scum.

[ashersky]

If ash is town, then Faust would be conf!scum to him, and the best thing you can do is vote for conf!scum.

When he said that, that basically sealed my vote. It's pretty obvious Ashersky blew it at this point.

Have you such a low opinion of me as a player?  I have the equivalent of decades of experience on you as a Mafia player.

Pretty sure if you read my posts, you would understand my point.

There are many examples of times when voting for conf!scum may not be the best course of action.  Sometimes you pull a Jimmmm and try to root out partners, for example.

The duel mechanic forces players to vote for town or scum.  Only scum know with certainty which they are voting for.  We only care about the two scum not in the duel.  You need to leave as many slots available for the not duel players to vote.

For example, once I am lynched, you will see that I am town and Faust is scum.  Then you look at who decided to lynch me, and you will see a slot that could have been useful information taken up by Faust.  You will also see that I am screwing up your own chances at information by self-voting, but that's because I'm vindictive and petty when people misread me so badly.

There's also the fact that the setup actual rewards mislynches by giving all remaining town a chance to be converted to the scum team and win.  So it may seem to some of the town players that the best play is actually to mislynch every time and hope to get converted.

[ashersky]

faust: once the lynch is confirmed, would you do me a favor and go ahead and thank chairs for screwing up his own plan on behalf of your partners?

Also, no need to troll after the lynch is confirmed, you can just own up to being scum.

You're being ridiculous and petty. I haven't even voted yet. I'm just doing a reread. Of course I'm going to find you scummy, from my perspective you have 50% odds of being scum.

What did that post have to do with you?

You know that if I have a 50% chance of being scum, there's another player who also have a 50% chance of being scum?

I suck at math, so someone check that for me.

[iguanaiguana]

I may have to retract that townread on ash sadly... something just doesn't add up. He claims to have thought about this setup for a bit, yet he didn't know there are only 1-shot ghouls. If scum!ash had the town PM available, I could see him going for this kind of fake.

Meh.

It is more that I didn't realize there were only 1-shot ghouls in the setup.  Like, my QT clearly does NOT specify that my power is 1-shot, and that's my go to for all role information.  Open setup or not, role pm/qt needs to specify.

Scum team will complain but the Ghoul plan is basically gold.  Chairs gets huge town points for pointing it out -- I don't see him doing that as scum in the way he did.

Everyone should post something acknowledging the plan.

I will follow the Ghoul plan tonight, target the person on the list after me.

These concessions read towny. I can understand the source of Ash's misunderstandings now. It's harder to see scum!Ash make any concession when he could have just spread more confusion instead. However, he could have easily also made these concessions as scum because he sensed a lynch coming.

[gkrieg13]

I don't think the unvoting thing tells us anything. Faust has a good point that that slot would be taken up by the other player anyway because if Faust was at L-1, and you were town or scum and knew the other player was the opposite alignment, you would definitely hammer. But you would most certainly hammer as scum anyway.

[ashersky]

Also, apropos of nothing -- I think Faust is playing like scum!faust.  This is mostly of faust's own notes, given no one seems to see it.  This is the blessing and danger of playing many, many, many games and modding even more.  There are tics and things that give a player away.  It's like poker, I think.

[J Reggie]

The whole argument of ash being town because he would have died in the night as scum if the plan had gone correctly seems like exactly the type of thing ash would plan as scum. Also, I really don't understand the unvoting thing. If ash is town, then Faust would be conf!scum to him, and the best thing you can do is vote for conf!scum. So I think I'll vote: ashersky.

Who argued that I would have died at night?  What kind of argument is that, even?  I literally don't understand it. 

If the players which mafia chooses die before the start of the next day, then another player from the required alignment is randomized. However, mafia is allowed (and encouraged) to choose a backup player for each side, who will then be chosen if the first choice dies.

Scum could have chosen a backup, therefore faust could have been the sacrifice target.

But why choose a backup?  The absolute most sensible thing to do as scum is to assume town plays well enough to follow the simplest plan on the planet and just work around it.

There are no absolute guarantees here, but I'm basing my analysis on known information and most likely decisions.  Scum plans for the plan and does what they need to to get what they think is most beneficial to them.

This is what made me think that. Maybe I'm understanding it wrong.

[ashersky]

I don't think the unvoting thing tells us anything. Faust has a good point that that slot would be taken up by the other player anyway because if Faust was at L-1, and you were town or scum and knew the other player was the opposite alignment, you would definitely hammer. But you would most certainly hammer as scum anyway.

Well, my point was that we both promise not to vote at all.  Yes, scum would break that promise if town was at L-1, because they both die anyway, but it still forces the rest of the players to take stands earlier, I think.

Would town!me be tempted to break the promise to hammer scum?  Sure.  But I wouldn't -- because why would anyone trust me after that?

But it's more the dismissive tone Faust used to completely skirt the idea -- that's a scum!faust trait every single time.  Town!faust is helpful and thoughtful.  Scum!faust is haughty and bossy.

[gkrieg13]

Also, apropos of nothing -- I think Faust is playing like scum!faust.  This is mostly of faust's own notes, given no one seems to see it.  This is the blessing and danger of playing many, many, many games and modding even more.  There are tics and things that give a player away.  It's like poker, I think.

Ya but you seem like you are playing one of your scum games as well. You would also love a Faust/you matchup. You live for that kind of thing.

Obviously scum want to take Faust out early too. Although the counter argument to that is that Faust seems scummier the longer he lives so he would volunteer himself to be the duke person.

You would also totally do the QT wording gambit at the beginning of the game as scum.

Honestly it seems like you have been grabbing for town points and it seems weird to me that you don't really try to build a case on Faust with real reasons, you instead choose to go based on setup things like where the person who died came from in the lineup and that Faust won't unvote.

[ashersky]

The whole argument of ash being town because he would have died in the night as scum if the plan had gone correctly seems like exactly the type of thing ash would plan as scum. Also, I really don't understand the unvoting thing. If ash is town, then Faust would be conf!scum to him, and the best thing you can do is vote for conf!scum. So I think I'll vote: ashersky.

Who argued that I would have died at night?  What kind of argument is that, even?  I literally don't understand it. 

If the players which mafia chooses die before the start of the next day, then another player from the required alignment is randomized. However, mafia is allowed (and encouraged) to choose a backup player for each side, who will then be chosen if the first choice dies.

Scum could have chosen a backup, therefore faust could have been the sacrifice target.

But why choose a backup?  The absolute most sensible thing to do as scum is to assume town plays well enough to follow the simplest plan on the planet and just work around it.

There are no absolute guarantees here, but I'm basing my analysis on known information and most likely decisions.  Scum plans for the plan and does what they need to to get what they think is most beneficial to them.

This is what made me think that. Maybe I'm understanding it wrong.

My argument is:

1) Scum knew the town plan.
2) Scum assumed it would be followed successfully.
3) Scum chose their duel targets with that in mind and chose duel targets that would absolutely NOT die.
4) Scum chose their NK target to ensure that the ghoul plan would result in scum other than Faust dying.

If you think I'm the scum, just switch the names.  Faust points out that if I'm scum and wanted to ensure an ashersky v. Faust duel -- Jimmmm has to be scum, otherwise I'd have died if both chairs and Jimmmm used ghoul correctly.

I'd say that makes me more likely to be town, unless you think Jimmmm is in fact scum.  Because with Faust as scum, the actually scum who would die could be anyone from chairs all the way around the list until you get back to Faust.

[ashersky]

Also, apropos of nothing -- I think Faust is playing like scum!faust.  This is mostly of faust's own notes, given no one seems to see it.  This is the blessing and danger of playing many, many, many games and modding even more.  There are tics and things that give a player away.  It's like poker, I think.

Ya but you seem like you are playing one of your scum games as well. You would also love a Faust/you matchup. You live for that kind of thing.

Obviously scum want to take Faust out early too. Although the counter argument to that is that Faust seems scummier the longer he lives so he would volunteer himself to be the duke person.

You would also totally do the QT wording gambit at the beginning of the game as scum.

Honestly it seems like you have been grabbing for town points and it seems weird to me that you don't really try to build a case on Faust with real reasons, you instead choose to go based on setup things like where the person who died came from in the lineup and that Faust won't unvote.

I've said multiple times there's no case on Faust.  I actually think it was a bad decision on scum's part to put him in the first duel.  I would have chosen the weakest player, or the scummiest player.  Even though he gets replaced, you know it's a downgrade no matter who you get.  Seems bad.

People seem to be making a "case" on me, although I disagree with the points I can understand.  If someone comes up with a case on Faust, great.  I don't see it happening, though.  There's:

1) He was fairly inactive and mostly useless on D1 (from a leadership / theory / scum hunting perspective).
2) He has his scum persona turned on.
3) He's sitting back here on D2 letting everyone else do the work for him.

That's about it.

[iguanaiguana]

faust: once the lynch is confirmed, would you do me a favor and go ahead and thank chairs for screwing up his own plan on behalf of your partners?

Also, no need to troll after the lynch is confirmed, you can just own up to being scum.

You're being ridiculous and petty. I haven't even voted yet. I'm just doing a reread. Of course I'm going to find you scummy, from my perspective you have 50% odds of being scum.

What did that post have to do with you?

You know that if I have a 50% chance of being scum, there's another player who also have a 50% chance of being scum?

I suck at math, so someone check that for me.

Yes, I was doing your reread first.

[iguanaiguana]

Town on ash and Jimmmmm. Need to look again for scum reads.

Faust puts early townreads on these folks. Also doesn't say much at all about what's happened so far.

[silverspawn]

Vote Count 2.1

ashersky (5): gkrieg13, Seprix, faust, J Reggie, ashersky {L-1}
faust (1): Jimmmmm

Not Voting (5): Haddock, e, Joseph2302, iguanaiguana, Egork

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends at Aug 3, 23:00 forum time. That is in 8 days and 12+ hours.

Looks like I miscalculated when I tried to count 9 days forward. Subsequent game days are one real life day shorter than the first, down to seven. Real ending is August 3, not 4.

[iguanaiguana]

I don't know. This game is weird. Do people seriously believe that it's good to not give reads? Because that is bullshit.

I'm going to reread Jimmmmm. Because his post count stands out.

This sort of misrepresents Ash, who said not to give readslist. Though, he may be talking about other players who had actually extended Ash's original statement into thinking we shouldn't give any reads. But did anyone actually say that?

[ashersky]

I just re-read the setup rules to see if there was something we missed that could have been exploited by scum.  I really think it just means chairs dropped the ball on his own plan, right?

A targets B targets C...targets scum.  Scum can't redirect, scum dies.  Unless it is recursive back to town on accident, or someone doesn't ghoul, it was perfect.

Argh.

[J Reggie]

The whole argument of ash being town because he would have died in the night as scum if the plan had gone correctly seems like exactly the type of thing ash would plan as scum. Also, I really don't understand the unvoting thing. If ash is town, then Faust would be conf!scum to him, and the best thing you can do is vote for conf!scum. So I think I'll vote: ashersky.

Who argued that I would have died at night?  What kind of argument is that, even?  I literally don't understand it. 

If the players which mafia chooses die before the start of the next day, then another player from the required alignment is randomized. However, mafia is allowed (and encouraged) to choose a backup player for each side, who will then be chosen if the first choice dies.

Scum could have chosen a backup, therefore faust could have been the sacrifice target.

But why choose a backup?  The absolute most sensible thing to do as scum is to assume town plays well enough to follow the simplest plan on the planet and just work around it.

There are no absolute guarantees here, but I'm basing my analysis on known information and most likely decisions.  Scum plans for the plan and does what they need to to get what they think is most beneficial to them.

This is what made me think that. Maybe I'm understanding it wrong.

My argument is:

1) Scum knew the town plan.
2) Scum assumed it would be followed successfully.
3) Scum chose their duel targets with that in mind and chose duel targets that would absolutely NOT die.
4) Scum chose their NK target to ensure that the ghoul plan would result in scum other than Faust dying.

If you think I'm the scum, just switch the names.  Faust points out that if I'm scum and wanted to ensure an ashersky v. Faust duel -- Jimmmm has to be scum, otherwise I'd have died if both chairs and Jimmmm used ghoul correctly.

I'd say that makes me more likely to be town, unless you think Jimmmm is in fact scum.  Because with Faust as scum, the actually scum who would die could be anyone from chairs all the way around the list until you get back to Faust.

Ok, I guess you didn't understand what I was saying. Since there is a possibility of having a backup duel, it makes sense that scum would try this unlikely gamble because if it pays off, they have this argument that ash is making now. The fact that he was so quick to make that argument proves that point further.

[iguanaiguana]

This also had me read the teamlyle stuff more carefully. Ugh. Hur dur. It is weird. I don't get it. I didn't get it at the time and chose to ignore it. But there is something in there too valuable to ignore. My gut says scum.

Very vague in response to his reasons for voting Teamlyle.

[ashersky]

Odds a scum that hasn't voted yet would just quick hammer me?

[ashersky]

Ok, I guess you didn't understand what I was saying. Since there is a possibility of having a backup duel, it makes sense that scum would try this unlikely gamble because if it pays off, they have this argument that ash is making now. The fact that he was so quick to make that argument proves that point further.

I still don't understand what you are saying.  Are you saying that scum would purposefully choose a backup duel and let the first person they choose die?

That makes no sense, because we, as town, wouldn't know that happened.  For all we know, chairs was the chosen duel and I was the backup.

What gamble are you referencing?  What did they do?

[iguanaiguana]

Ash, you should really unvote yourself.

[ashersky]

unvote

Why though?