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Author Topic: VP Counters and Resignations  (Read 11481 times)

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LastFootnote

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VP Counters and Resignations
« on: June 01, 2016, 11:57:24 am »
+4

Although I have been an outspoken opponent of VP counters in the past, lately I have been playing with "Prefer ON" in order to be friendly to those who like to use them. And they're not bad! It's nice to be able to more easily read the flow of the game with confidence that you know where you stand.

But one thing I have noticed is that the number of my games that end in a resignation has risen dramatically lately, and I'm wondering if the VP counter is at least partially to blame. I think it discourages many players from finishing games, because they know (or think) that I have an insurmountable lead. And for somebody like me, who plays for fun rather than to make their rating number go up, it can be very frustrating.

It's possible that this is just a coincidence. I've been biasing my games toward Adventures cards since that set was released, and I do think Teacher and Champion are also strongly correlated with resignations. If you get yours significantly before your opponent, that can often be game over.

Anyway, what do you all think? Is there any connection? And bear in mind that I'm not arguing for the abolition of VP counters; I'm just trying to get a feel for whether they lead to more resignations, and whether the community even perceives widespread resignations as a problem.
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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2016, 12:02:36 pm »
+1

I've never thought of this correlation before. I might try more games with VP counters off. I totally agree with this:

And for somebody like me, who plays for fun rather than to make their rating number go up, it can be very frustrating.

It'll be interesting to see if that changes anything.

DG

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2016, 12:14:00 pm »
+4

It could be that there are more engine games since adventures came out, particularly 'locked down' engine games, and it's not much fun to see them continue to the end. The Goko interface can also create slow decision processes. All sorts of cards seems to have booby traps with bad clicks.
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E.Honda

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2016, 12:17:59 pm »
+2

As a side note, since this thread isnt about vp counters yes/no:
For me, vp counters are a a means to make better decisions, for example pulling out a 3pile where your last buy is an estate that gives you the +1 vp win. Of course this could be done without them by memorizing the difference between you and your opponent but im too lazy to do that every game so therefore, for me they add to my perceived fun playing the game rather than taking that away.

Apart from that, I dont think the use of vp counters leads me to resigning more often. When i do resign it is because i feel the strenght of my opponents deck has grown so large relative to mine that There's not enough time for me to catch up before they can end. This is more about deck potentials and vp counters aren't really important to asess this. It's like the Situation you described with teacher/Champion: its not about a (visible) vp lead but about the fact that if your opponent gets to those significantly earlier than you their deck just explodes and theres nothing you can do to catch up in time.

Of course, thats just me personally and for other people seeing their opponent have a big vp lead might be a factor making them resign.
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Rabid

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2016, 12:42:35 pm »
+8

My guess is that players most likely to resign a losing position also like VP counter on.
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DG

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2016, 02:06:03 pm »
+2

After replying to this thread I started a random game on Goko and found this pleasant kingdom.  No VP counter required.

Chapel, Guide, Masquerade, Armory, Rats, Artificer, Saboteur, Torturer, Treasure Trove, King's Court, Events: Scouting Party, Bonfire
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Infthitbox

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2016, 02:17:13 pm »
+1

It is a shame that the game logs don't indicate whether or not a point counter was used; that way we could attempt to correlate resignations (which are in the log) and VP counter use. Personally, I think there might be a very slight causal effect: I will almost always resign immediately if it becomes impossible to overtake my opponents point lead based on the game state, and I typically only know this because certain VP numbers on the counter lead me to check if that's true. I can't say for sure that I wouldn't be more militant about counting points and resigning surefire losses without the VP counter, but it does make it a lot easier.
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Kirian

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2016, 03:01:16 pm »
+3

I think it discourages many players from finishing games, because they know (or think) that I have an insurmountable lead.

I generally won't resign unless I know my opponent has an insurmountable lead.  44 points with no alt-VP, or counting what's left in the piles, is an end to the game.

Quote
And for somebody like me, who plays for fun rather than to make their rating number go up, it can be very frustrating.

I don't understand why finishing a game that you have already won would be fun.  You're just "winning more" now.  The only exception would be for something like achievements on old iso/CR.

Quote
I've been biasing my games toward Adventures cards since that set was released, and I do think Teacher and Champion are also strongly correlated with resignations. If you get yours significantly before your opponent, that can often be game over.

I can't imagine resigning just because my opponent got to Teacher/Champion first.  Especially Teacher; it's a high skill card, it can only get used every second turn at best, there are plenty of ways to screw up its use.  I guess some people just can't handle even a 40% lose chance?  Well, that's a way to destroy your rating quickly.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2016, 03:08:24 pm »
+4

I have been resigning a lot more now. I used to not as much, usually playing games out that I would never win. The VP counter has nothing to do with me resigning though. My biggest reason is one, my opponent has clearly won. If you managed to get 8 Magpies and get Pathfinding, gg. If you got your Champion off two turns sooner and 5 Provinces are down, gg.

The second biggest reason that I've been resigning is that it is very hard to use chat. It sucks. I do chat though, but it is hard to do so and not all opponents even see the chat notification. So, that's another reason.
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LastFootnote

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2016, 03:13:34 pm »
+3

I don't understand why finishing a game that you have already won would be fun.  You're just "winning more" now.  The only exception would be for something like achievements on old iso/CR.

Well, two things. First, some people resign very early, like a third to halfway through the game. Man I had a plan that game. I wanted to see if it would work. Second, sometimes it's fun to play out your deck. You built this deck, but then the game is over before you get to use it.

Basically it boils down to: you don't get to see your plans come to fruition (or fall apart, or whatever). If winning is the only thing you find fun, then sure, why prolong the game? But I enjoy actually playing the game, and it's not much fun to be cut off, especially mid-turn.
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Awaclus

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2016, 03:16:40 pm »
+4

Basically it boils down to: you don't get to see your plans come to fruition (or fall apart, or whatever). If winning is the only thing you find fun, then sure, why prolong the game? But I enjoy actually playing the game, and it's not much fun to be cut off, especially mid-turn.

'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning.' Reiner Knizia
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2016, 03:17:28 pm »
+2

I just thought of the last game I resigned. There was no trashing. I lost the ruins split 7-3. And, then my opponent got Followers. I mean, I could have played that out, but it was obvious once he got Followers I had no chance. I mean, odds were once I lost the ruins split I was likely not going to come back.

So, yah, that game had a lot more turns left, but man, do I really want to play that game out. Anyway, the VP counter had nothing do with me resigning.
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LastFootnote

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2016, 03:28:06 pm »
0

Basically it boils down to: you don't get to see your plans come to fruition (or fall apart, or whatever). If winning is the only thing you find fun, then sure, why prolong the game? But I enjoy actually playing the game, and it's not much fun to be cut off, especially mid-turn.

'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning.' Reiner Knizia

"The goal is important" != "The goal is the only important thing"
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LastFootnote

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2016, 03:30:12 pm »
0

I just thought of the last game I resigned. There was no trashing. I lost the ruins split 7-3. And, then my opponent got Followers. I mean, I could have played that out, but it was obvious once he got Followers I had no chance. I mean, odds were once I lost the ruins split I was likely not going to come back.

So, yah, that game had a lot more turns left, but man, do I really want to play that game out. Anyway, the VP counter had nothing do with me resigning.

I am not trying to say that every game should be played to its conclusion. I resign sometimes too! But I've seen a big uptick in people resigning games on the last turn, or resigning games where there isn't an overwhelming lead.
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Awaclus

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2016, 03:50:22 pm »
+1

"The goal is important" != "The goal is the only important thing"

But it is pretty much the only important thing as far as the game is concerned. If you're not trying to win, you're not playing the game. It's fine to like things other than playing games, but I wouldn't be surprised when it turned out that a lot of people who like games actually like playing the games too.
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LastFootnote

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2016, 04:15:57 pm »
+1

"The goal is important" != "The goal is the only important thing"

But it is pretty much the only important thing as far as the game is concerned. If you're not trying to win, you're not playing the game. It's fine to like things other than playing games, but I wouldn't be surprised when it turned out that a lot of people who like games actually like playing the games too.

Nobody in this thread is talking about not trying to win.

EDIT: Except you.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 04:19:26 pm by LastFootnote »
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Awaclus

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2016, 04:19:34 pm »
0

"The goal is important" != "The goal is the only important thing"

But it is pretty much the only important thing as far as the game is concerned. If you're not trying to win, you're not playing the game. It's fine to like things other than playing games, but I wouldn't be surprised when it turned out that a lot of people who like games actually like playing the games too.

Nobody in this thread is talking about not trying to win.

You're not trying to win when the outcome of the game has been decided already.
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LastFootnote

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2016, 04:44:34 pm »
+3

You're not trying to win when the outcome of the game has been decided already.

I'm totally OK with someone resigning if it's mathematically impossible for them to win (in a 2-player game), with the exception that it's rude to resign in the middle of your opponent's last turn (though I admit I have done so).

You could argue that it's not rude all day long, but I don't think I'd agree with you.
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mameluke

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2016, 04:48:01 pm »
+3

Controversial opinion: Dominion is not very fun when you are losing by a lot (tempo, points, key engine components, whatever). This happens a lot more in Adventures with deck explosions.
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wachsmuth

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2016, 04:48:47 pm »
+3

I don't think resignations are unfun at all. Really premature resignations (e.g. turn 4) are a bit silly, but otherwise,  I find resignations every now and then from my opponent is much more fun than no resignations at all. Playing out that 1-province-per-turn Scrying Pool engine for 5 turns isn't that interesting.
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LastFootnote

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2016, 04:54:32 pm »
0

Controversial opinion: Dominion is not very fun when you are losing by a lot (tempo, points, key engine components, whatever). This happens a lot more in Adventures with deck explosions.

I agree with this. And it might be that Adventures has a much larger impact on the number of resignations than the VP counter. It might be that the VP counter actually has no such impact and it's just my perception.

I don't think resignations are unfun at all. Really premature resignations (e.g. turn 4) are a bit silly, but otherwise,  I find resignations every now and then from my opponent is much more fun than no resignations at all. Playing out that 1-province-per-turn Scrying Pool engine for 5 turns isn't that interesting.

Yes, Scrying Pool is awful!

Occasional resignations would not have prompted me to make this thread. It feels to me that more than half of my recent games have ended in a resignation. I should record a sample.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2016, 04:56:16 pm »
+2

What's interesting is that there are players who prefer the opponent to resign and then there are players who hate it when someone resigns. I was playing an irl game. My opponent got their engine up and running much faster than me. I knew I had no chance of winning. They could have played it out, and that would have been fun for them but being brutally beaten was not fun for me, especially since there was no way for me to come back. Anyway, I asked if i could concede and they let me, and I way very grateful for that.

Anyway, I guess the point im trying to make is that it can be fun to play a crazy engine and win in an awesome way. However, for the other player, they might not be having as much fun.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 04:59:41 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2016, 05:19:23 pm »
+3

FWIW, i had my first ever turn 1 resignation a couple days ago.  opened mountebank

i'm inclined to believe it's more of an adventures thing, yes.  i also do not enjoy dominion when i'm horribly behind!

amoffett11

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2016, 05:33:05 pm »
+3

I've never been able to understand this idea that someone else owes you their time. 

There's one more Province, and it will decide the game.  I can see that your engine has kicked off, and you're going to win the game.  Sometimes these turns can take awhile, and sometimes they don't, but exactly why should I now have to sit here and wait for it to finish?  Because it would be rude?  Or if we're halfway through the game, and I can tell I'm far behind, maybe I made the wrong decision, going for some stupid Alt VP strategy when clearly the HoP megaturn was the right call.  I understand that it would be fun for you to play this game to its conclusion so you can actually pull off that turn.  But do I now owe you the next five minutes of my life because you're better at Dominion than me?  No, I'm resigning the game and moving on.  I will at least say "good game" before moving on, but that's as much as you should reasonably expect.  If you want to always play games that actually finish, play against bots, but if you're playing online get used to people moving on to the next game. 

On a different note, I don't think it's an issue with point counters.  Maybe it would be nice if you could finish the game against a Bot.  Something to possibly look forward to in Dominion 2017. 
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Donald X.

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Re: VP Counters and Resignations
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2016, 05:44:02 pm »
+12

I can enjoy watching a movie even though I know how it ends.

Obv. ideally you have the option of continuing a won-by-resignation game vs. AI.
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