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Author Topic: Restricting cards in Black Market  (Read 2165 times)

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Accatitippi

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Restricting cards in Black Market
« on: May 23, 2016, 08:40:19 am »
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There should be a list of banned BM cards, because this is just silly.
I don't always play physical games with Black Market...

...but when I do, I make sure the Black Market doesn't contain

Cultist
Fairgrounds
Fool's Gold
Knights
Magpie
Page
Peasant
Peddler
Port
Rats
Tournament
Transmute
Treasure Map

(This list is probably not exhaustive and will probably increase tremendously with Empires. Also, it is meaningless until I actually get a Black Market.)

I'm moving this discussion here since it's probably more appropriate.

My thoughts about a possible ban list:

Tournament in the BM can be really annoying. 100% agree on banning.

I think that the some of the worst black market offenders are vp-token cards, since they create a virtually infinite pool of vp for only one player. So I think I'd ban Goons, Monument, and Bishop. But after Empires, vp tokens might become so common in games that this won't be a problem any more, assuming it's a problem now. ;)

Attacks are really annoying when in the BM, in particular junkers if they have no relatives on the board (Witch without other cursers, Cultist without Marauder). Trashers and hand attacks are ok I think.

There's a case for banning Tactician: Tactician-BM is fun and everything, but combos involving Black Market tend to happen often due to the size of the Black market, and banning Tac would not curb it, rather make the combo more rare and availlable to everybody when it happens.

Dud cards in the BM are fine, it's not like BM needs buffing anyway. So I'd keep all the little Pages, Peddlers, Fool's Golds, Magpies, Ports, and such. I see no reason at all to ban Peasant (except rule clarity issues), since its +Buy might be what you sorely need sometimes. We find that Treasure Map is hylarious when in the Black Market.

Rats is probably ok, since it's just a cheap Junk dealer. It becomes a very different card but not a radically broken one (like Tactician arguably does). Compare with Ratcatcher and Raze, who are not mandatory trashing and are cheaper.

My list tentatively includes:
Tournament
Tactician
Cultist
Goons
Monument
Bishop

(my list is also mostly meaningless, until I get my own physical copies of Cornucopia, Prosperity and Dark Ages - I do ban Tactician)
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Restricting cards in Black Market
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2016, 08:42:16 am »
+3

The point of Black Market is that people have different opportunities and you have to work around your opponent's advantages. Come on, guys. Why not ban Black Market if you don't like people having unique cards? 
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Accatitippi

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Re: Restricting cards in Black Market
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2016, 08:58:02 am »
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The point of Black Market is that people have different opportunities and you have to work around your opponent's advantages. Come on, guys. Why not ban Black Market if you don't like people having unique cards?

Because I love Black Market, but I find I enjoy it a bit more in games whithout "Bombs" in the Black Market.

No crusade here, sorry, just some friendly musings.
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singletee

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Re: Restricting cards in Black Market
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2016, 10:22:48 am »
+1

Why Cultist? I think its power level in the Black Market is quite reasonable.

And single Tactician / Black Market is not really a power combo, since you will only get to use it every second turn in the best case.

popsofctown

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Re: Restricting cards in Black Market
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2016, 02:39:13 pm »
+2

Online, I think Black Market would work better if it literally included every single card.  Part of the issue with inequally accessed elements of the Black Market is that when you buy one, you simultaneously gain an attribute not present in the kingdom piles and also remove one copy of that attribute from the Black Market deck for the other player.

Once you decide you're going to go full tilt in regards to that, you don't really need to ban anything.  Tournament doesn't really need to be banned from the Black Market in any sense different from how you might want to ban the card in general, really, to be honest, usually one player gets a monopoly off Province - Tournament collisions when Tournament is a normal supply pile element anyway.  The card is already Black Market-ified, and yeah there are pretty common complaints about it for sure but they're not unique to Black Market.


In real life, making a Black Market deck that big is hard times.  I would try to relieve myself of tedium entirely and build a 15 card BM deck with no junkers, trashers, or VP chips, in a casual IRL game. 
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Seprix

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Re: Restricting cards in Black Market
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2016, 02:44:40 pm »
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I am not in favor of restricting any cards in Black Market. The entire point of Black market is that the cards are Random, and that you have to work out a strategy based on what your opponent has or not. I've had so many games where I was sunk due to Black Market and then I got another card from Black Market that spun it all around and gave me a fighting chance.

Black Market is also an excellent source of extra gains if there are no other gainers/buys on the board, both in the sense of gainers in Black Market AND the fact that just buying a card from the Black Market is an extra gain.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Restricting cards in Black Market
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2016, 03:37:17 pm »
+1

The ones that I'm mainly interested in banning would be Page, Fool's Gold and Treasure Map, as they're essentially pointless. I don't really have a big problem with any other cards. Sometimes Chapel or Mountebank or whatever can be really good to get out of the Black Market deck, but I find that a single black market card being game-winning is actually extremely rare.
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