Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.  (Read 6281 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1855
    • View Profile
+5


This is in the "Dominion General Discussion" section and not the articles section because
1) I don't truly understand these cards yet,
2) there's no thesis. It's just a bunch of rants in no particular order. Back to remedial writing class.

First of all, complaints of Warrior being OP are greatly exaggerated. Yes, you probably lose if the opponent's Warrior hits your Warrior, but the odds of this are less than, for instance, missing 3P after opening potion for a Familiar, or even splitting 4-3 where your opponent splits 5-2 on a Mountebank board. It's just not a game-warping asymmetry and not something worth disliking a card over.

Second, the common criticism of this line is: why am I filling my deck with treasures when I have Champion around who seems to really, really, want me to play a hard engine. And the answer is: well, sometimes that's tough, the line "junks" your deck with a couple silvers and golds so that you can get to champion and idk trash them and play your goons a bunch and buy out the pearl divers or whatever, but the other answer is, omg Champion is good in big money-ish decks. Ever played big money/smithy? Remember that part where you can't decide if you want another smithy or just a silver because you're scared they'll collide? Obsolete! I bought 8 rangers the other day. Ranger isn't a very good card. 8 non-terminal rangers, by contrast, make a deck pretty good.

I mean, Champion... Champion is ridiculous. The attack immunity and especially extra actions completely warp your early decisions. Laboratory becomes strictly worse than Smithy with Champion in play. But a Page on the board is so, so far from a Champion in play, that you have to revaluate the cost of everything several times over the game in light of "how soon is it to Champion time, when we're playing a completely different Game?" Same with attacks: do you really want to build a torturer chain when eventually your villages will become a waste of a buy and your torturer will become a glorified smithy? But conversely do you want to risk getting smothered before you get to Champion? Who knows?

other cards in order:

Page: She doesn't do anything but power up the Warrior.

Treasure Hunter: I'm with AdamH here, like, silver, whatever, some decks don't want it but those decks have ways of dealing with it; for every other deck, you add a couple silvers and you're happy. But treasure hunter can also do something funny in the end game, where you can easily gain a ludicrous number of silvers. Haven't yet had the pleasure of a treasure hunter/Feodum game, which I imagine is something like a duchy dance with an exponential growth function.

Warrior: The 3-4 limitation really hurts this attack (not that this is a bad thing). Now, cost reduction + lots of pages + Warrior is probably a thing, but even that is a damn tricky thing since whenever Warrior is available, Champion is available to perma-moot it. Doesn't feel like a cheap way to win at all; I'd have mad respect for someone that pulled this off against me (it has yet to happen).

Hero: the funniest, but again, not much reason to keep this one around. Maybe worth turning a second page into a hero on a colony board just to workshop platina? Dunno, haven't tried it. Good Combo with Horn of Plenty (the whole line is, of course).
Logged

funkdoc

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 472
  • Respect: +414
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2016, 04:36:21 pm »
+1

don't forget that Page is a nice token target!  that's key on one of the campaign boards, for instance.

also yea, i am really not seeing the big deal with Warrior like, at all so far.  i just get 2 Pages whenever we both go for it because i read all the Warrior talk on this forum, and that hasn't failed me yet.  it would be a much bigger problem with the Peasant line since you typically want some Disciples to go along with your Teacher, but it seems pretty rare that you need more than 1 Page to level up.

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2016, 06:15:00 pm »
0

Yes. Getting yellow cards hurts more than Warrior.
Logged

Infthitbox

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
  • Respect: +440
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 08:15:11 pm »
0

The only time I've seen Warrior ruin the game was a 3p game. Between me and the second player, the third player's deck was utterly destroyed and he had no hope of ever playing. It hasn't played out like that in any 2p games I've played online.
Logged

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1728
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 08:26:31 pm »
0

Could someone do a simulation of how long, on average, does it take a Page to become a Champion, in the absence of any other cards?  So no thinning, sifting, draw, or anything that would otherwise speed up (or slow down) the exchanging.  That would be cool to know.  I wonder how it would compare to other straight-X strategies (Jack, Wharf, etc.).

It's probably still too early to tell, but my hypothesis is that Page is pretty weak when you have absolutely no other support to speed up the exchanging.
Logged

trivialknot

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 757
  • Respect: +1171
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2016, 08:31:27 pm »
0

Treasure Hunter is my favorite.  Not because it's good, but because it's bad.  Those silver really slow you down in getting Champion, particularly if Treasure Hunters get played for multiple turns in a row, or if you play more than one.  Truly, Treasure Hunter is what make the later travelers feel special, because you had to pay the toll to get them.
Logged

faust

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5142
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2016, 09:17:56 am »
0

Could someone do a simulation of how long, on average, does it take a Page to become a Champion, in the absence of any other cards?  So no thinning, sifting, draw, or anything that would otherwise speed up (or slow down) the exchanging.  That would be cool to know.  I wonder how it would compare to other straight-X strategies (Jack, Wharf, etc.).

It's probably still too early to tell, but my hypothesis is that Page is pretty weak when you have absolutely no other support to speed up the exchanging.
Page bm upgrading to hero/treasure hunter seems ok for bm.

I just doubt that there are many boards where Page is around and BM is still the best option.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

faust

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5142
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2016, 09:59:44 am »
+1

Could someone do a simulation of how long, on average, does it take a Page to become a Champion, in the absence of any other cards?  So no thinning, sifting, draw, or anything that would otherwise speed up (or slow down) the exchanging.  That would be cool to know.  I wonder how it would compare to other straight-X strategies (Jack, Wharf, etc.).

It's probably still too early to tell, but my hypothesis is that Page is pretty weak when you have absolutely no other support to speed up the exchanging.
Page bm upgrading to hero/treasure hunter seems ok for bm.

I just doubt that there are many boards where Page is around and BM is still the best option.
Any board without draw or trashing

If there's Page, there's draw.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

wachsmuth

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 266
  • Respect: +347
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2016, 10:04:58 am »
+5

Could someone do a simulation of how long, on average, does it take a Page to become a Champion, in the absence of any other cards?  So no thinning, sifting, draw, or anything that would otherwise speed up (or slow down) the exchanging.  That would be cool to know.  I wonder how it would compare to other straight-X strategies (Jack, Wharf, etc.).

It's probably still too early to tell, but my hypothesis is that Page is pretty weak when you have absolutely no other support to speed up the exchanging.
Page bm upgrading to hero/treasure hunter seems ok for bm.

I just doubt that there are many boards where Page is around and BM is still the best option.
Any board without draw or trashing

If there's Page, there's draw.

Warrior is a lab that causes you to gain at least one Silver when gaining it. It doesn't actually help you draw your deck.
Logged

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Respect: +604
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2016, 10:59:47 am »
0

Absent Chapel/Steward/Remake, using Plan on Page is pretty cool. Trash your starters, cycle more quickly, exchange Pages, re-buy them for even more trashing.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2016, 11:20:15 am »
0

If there's Page, there's draw.

Warrior is a lab that causes you to gain at least one Silver when gaining it. It doesn't actually help you draw your deck.

Well, usually. It's certainly possible to play Treasure Hunter and get zero Silvers, but it's rare.
Logged

faust

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +5142
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2016, 11:51:45 am »
0

Could someone do a simulation of how long, on average, does it take a Page to become a Champion, in the absence of any other cards?  So no thinning, sifting, draw, or anything that would otherwise speed up (or slow down) the exchanging.  That would be cool to know.  I wonder how it would compare to other straight-X strategies (Jack, Wharf, etc.).

It's probably still too early to tell, but my hypothesis is that Page is pretty weak when you have absolutely no other support to speed up the exchanging.
Page bm upgrading to hero/treasure hunter seems ok for bm.

I just doubt that there are many boards where Page is around and BM is still the best option.
Any board without draw or trashing

If there's Page, there's draw.

Warrior is a lab that causes you to gain at least one Silver when gaining it. It doesn't actually help you draw your deck.

Yes. I guess my point is that I think Warrior/Champion is usually a better deck than Treasure Hunter/Hero even if there's little other engine potential. And since you can incorporate any number of action cards into such a deck, I wouldn't really call it BM.
Logged
You say the ocean's rising, like I give a shit
You say the whole world's ending, honey it already did

Limetime

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1237
  • Shuffle iT Username: limetime
  • Respect: +1179
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 11:57:12 am »
+1

Could someone do a simulation of how long, on average, does it take a Page to become a Champion, in the absence of any other cards?  So no thinning, sifting, draw, or anything that would otherwise speed up (or slow down) the exchanging.  That would be cool to know.  I wonder how it would compare to other straight-X strategies (Jack, Wharf, etc.).

It's probably still too early to tell, but my hypothesis is that Page is pretty weak when you have absolutely no other support to speed up the exchanging.
Page bm upgrading to hero/treasure hunter seems ok for bm.

I just doubt that there are many boards where Page is around and BM is still the best option.
Any board without draw or trashing

If there's Page, there's draw.

Warrior is a lab that causes you to gain at least one Silver when gaining it. It doesn't actually help you draw your deck.

Yes. I guess my point is that I think Warrior/Champion is usually a better deck than Treasure Hunter/Hero even if there's little other engine potential. And since you can incorporate any number of action cards into such a deck, I wouldn't really call it BM.
Champion warrior is pretty weak by itself.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2016, 12:00:14 pm »
+1

The only time I've seen Warrior ruin the game was a 3p game. Between me and the second player, the third player's deck was utterly destroyed and he had no hope of ever playing. It hasn't played out like that in any 2p games I've played online.

I played this game where that happened: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160513/log.0.1463176395758.txt
It was closer than it seemed, I think. If he had gone quickly to Champion instead of junking his deck with Silvers and then keeping the Treasure Hunter for the Silver gain, he might have had a chance.

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3846
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2437
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2016, 12:42:42 pm »
0

The Silvers gained from Treasure Hunter help defend against Warrior during the Champion climb, so it's not too much of a bummer to go through Treasure Hunter.

I noticed that Hero is perfect for getting a key Kingdom Treasure right before you are ready to supercharge your engine with Champion. Not having to buy a Relic, Horn of Plenty, Bank, or coming-soon Fortune is really convenient. Just getting an extra Gold is not too shabby either when you can just load up on terminal draw after Champion is played, especially if you have trash-for-benefit ready.
Logged

E.Honda

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 174
  • Shuffle iT Username: E.Honda
  • Respect: +226
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2016, 08:25:15 pm »
0

The Silvers gained from Treasure Hunter help defend against Warrior during the Champion climb, so it's not too much of a bummer to go through Treasure Hunter.

I noticed that Hero is perfect for getting a key Kingdom Treasure right before you are ready to supercharge your engine with Champion. Not having to buy a Relic, Horn of Plenty, Bank, or coming-soon Fortune is really convenient. Just getting an extra Gold is not too shabby either when you can just load up on terminal draw after Champion is played, especially if you have trash-for-benefit ready.

Yeah the hero treasure gaining is pretty nice sometimes, especially in combination with storyteller. i had a game with page, storyteller and bank on the board where i used two heroes after champion to gain banks drawing through my deck with storyteller+silver. the nice thing is that you just play the banks at the end, after drawing all your deck putting like 10 treasure cards in play so you dont have to care about losing so much buying power by drawing with storyteller. in general i think storyteller is really good with the page line
Logged

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • Respect: +604
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2016, 10:50:23 am »
0

Quote
Champion warrior is pretty weak by itself.

This is the real nugget of wisdom in this whole discussion.

If the kingdom doesn't have anything else to support it, trying to create an engine using just the Page line isn't going to work. It at least needs some trashing, and it probably needs some other drawing support. Also, cheap extra buys are helpful to grab pages quickly.

That said, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're looking at incorporating the Page line, you probably do want to grab some number of pages, upgrade one of them as quickly as possible to Champion, and upgrade all of the other ones to Warrior, as basically the "default" way to treat this line in an engine; it's just that that alone won't be enough, so have something else in mind as part of your plan. It's rare that you're going to want to keep Treasure Hunters or Heroes around without exchanging them, though buying/keeping Pages later might be really good if Training or Pathfinding is around.
Logged

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1728
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2016, 04:01:04 pm »
+1

Just played a game where there was Page and Gear.  I didn't see a ton of support for the Page line -- weak thinning, weak +buy, weak sifting, etc.  I mostly saw Gear-BM, which I've come to learn is super powerful, and I thought I could pile-drive enough Provinces before my opponent could even get a Champion.  And there was also Save, which I thought would smoothen out buys between turns even more than just the Gears alone.  I did get 3 early Provinces.  However, my opponent eventually crushed my Gear-BM with pretty much just the Page line, and a Hermit to help pick up more Pages.  By the end of the game, they had 4 Warriors, the last of which had me reveal 11 cards, and 5 Pages on deck for more Warriors if need be.  Even if I had started to settle with Duchies/Nobles, their Warriors would have inevitably been able to hit them (in addition to all of my Gears).  Maybe I should have gotten a 4th early Gear?  Maybe I started greening 1 or 2 turns too early?  Maybe him Warrioring one of my Gears early (T9) was big?

Regardless, I think there is something to straight-Page-line (with a small amount of additional support, such as Page-gainers, good draw, etc.).
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 04:08:50 pm by Dingan »
Logged

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1709
  • Respect: +4329
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2016, 04:19:09 pm »
+3

Even if I had started to settle with Duchies/Nobles, their Warriors would have inevitably been able to hit them (in addition to all of my Gears).  Maybe I should have gotten a 4th early Gear?  Maybe I started greening 1 or 2 turns too early?  Maybe him Warrioring one of my Gears early (T9) was big?

Warrior can only hit $3-4 cards. So I think here you need to transition from the starting Gears into something Warrior proof in the middle (Golds, Nobles or Merchant Ships). Trying to replace the destroyed Gears seems like a losing move to me, but if you're going to attempt that I would guess that you should be using Ball as well.

I can't say I agree with the conclusion that this board only has a small amount of Page line support, there's so much terminal draw, alt-VP and really great gaining from HoP. To me, terminal draw + longer game + big finish are the main Champion indicators.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 04:24:16 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
Logged

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1154
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1728
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2016, 04:57:03 pm »
0

Even if I had started to settle with Duchies/Nobles, their Warriors would have inevitably been able to hit them (in addition to all of my Gears).  Maybe I should have gotten a 4th early Gear?  Maybe I started greening 1 or 2 turns too early?  Maybe him Warrioring one of my Gears early (T9) was big?

Warrior can only hit $3-4 cards. So I think here you need to transition from the starting Gears into something Warrior proof in the middle (Golds, Nobles or Merchant Ships). Trying to replace the destroyed Gears seems like a losing move to me, but if you're going to attempt that I would guess that you should be using Ball as well.

I can't say I agree with the conclusion that this board only has a small amount of Page line support, there's so much terminal draw, alt-VP and really great gaining from HoP. To me, terminal draw + longer game + big finish are the main Champion indicators.

Oh right, forgot for a minute Warriors only hit $3-$4.  I see all your points; I guess I was just thinking I could snatch up like 6 Provinces really quickly, before they could line up everything you said, especially HoP's.
Logged

singletee

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 915
  • Shuffle iT Username: singletee
  • Gold, Silver, Copper, Let's Jam!
  • Respect: +1606
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2016, 05:09:13 pm »
+3

Even if I had started to settle with Duchies/Nobles, their Warriors would have inevitably been able to hit them (in addition to all of my Gears).  Maybe I should have gotten a 4th early Gear?  Maybe I started greening 1 or 2 turns too early?  Maybe him Warrioring one of my Gears early (T9) was big?

Warrior can only hit $3-4 cards. So I think here you need to transition from the starting Gears into something Warrior proof in the middle (Golds, Nobles or Merchant Ships). Trying to replace the destroyed Gears seems like a losing move to me, but if you're going to attempt that I would guess that you should be using Ball as well.

I can't say I agree with the conclusion that this board only has a small amount of Page line support, there's so much terminal draw, alt-VP and really great gaining from HoP. To me, terminal draw + longer game + big finish are the main Champion indicators.

Nobles is particularly good with the Page line as it can help give Actions before you get Champion, and then afterwards you can use it as draw every time. It also gives you a bit more available VP that you can use to catch up.

Trashing also helps Page and friends a lot. Plan on Page is fun times!

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: The page line: spoiler alert, it's fun and awesome and I love it.
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2016, 05:34:46 pm »
+1

That board has everything needed to make a crazy HoP Champion engine
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.223 seconds with 21 queries.