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[gkrieg13]

Other gkrieg stuff.

I don't really want to lynch Awaclus.  He seems townie here.  I'm not sure I'll actually get to a ced reread tonight.  I will try to do it in the next hour, but I might not be completely free.

Gkrieg said he thought Awaclus was town on day one. Sure, opinions can change, but gkrieg's case is a meta case. Why'd you think Awaclus was townie?

In the pregame I considered the applications of accountability for partner requests - e.g. claiming all requests at the start of the following day, or simply when run up to L-2 or whatever. It seems likely that the scum would have interest in manipulating the partnerships, and having an after-the-fact request claim doesn't seem like it'd hurt.

This post is actually a good idea.  It wouldn't hurt to say who we plan on requesting before the day is over.

I did not like this post first time around, and still don't. I suggested an after-the-fact claim and gkrieg suggests we do before-the-fact, but the way he frames it suggests that I asked for a before-the-fact claim. I almost voted for him on this when he originally posted it, but the one thing giving me pause is that there isn't an obvious gamebreaking element of the scum knowing pairs the night before that I could think of. Still, you'd think they'd like to know.

But also: gkrieg said some scummy stuff in our QT last night. The main thing is that he asked who I was requesting, which I found odd, but he also said something that I wouldn't exactly call a scumslip but seemed to imply he was speaking from a scum perspective. It's enough to make me want to vote: gkrieg

This is a follow-up to the pairs claim thing. ADK (confirmed town) reports on gkrieg's N1 words. Gkrieg apparently stuck to his guns on this request claim. Not sure he'd shown much suspicion of ADK the day before, though - so why ask him in particular? Really smells of fishing for info.
The "not quite a scumslip" thing is too hard to call without seeing the exact wording, which we unfortunately cannot get.

I'm fine with a Seprix, RR, or Joseph lynch at this point.  Would rather lynch Joseph, but Seprix would make me very happy as well.

I think we should go for Seprix/RR/Joseph, with RR>Seprix>Joseph, but those > signs are pretty small in my opinion.  I would be fine with lynching any of the three of them.

These are a couple of posts with the Seprix/RR/Joseph thing.

So gkreig is scum, pretty much confirmed now. He's been inconsistent, and hopping on wagons while looking indecisive so he won't be under the watchful eye of town when I do flip. In addition, gkreig has submitted very little in terms of actual content, mainly agreeing with people in wordy ways.

well I have been agreeing with certain people when they make sense.  I have been very decisive.  I said that I wanted to lynch RR, then you, then Joseph.  I think after your little interaction with Awaclus, that you are more likely to be scum than RR right now, so I voted for you.  With you voting for me, it doesn't matter all that much where my vote goes because it won't be a vote that counts anyway.

I haven't really gone from wagon to wagon.  I have voted for three different people today, all of which have been especially scummy.  Obviously I also think that we should lynch one of RR/Joseph as well today because there is some reason why scum didn't kill them last night.  I guess they are both easy mislynches, so it might be a good enough reason to keep them alive, but I really think that you go for the double kill as scum there.

You had a scummy end of day D1, and you are having a scummy end of day D2.

Gkrieg justifying his multiple lynches thing. I'd say that wanting to lynch three different people is the opposite of decisive, especially when that is a greater number than the remaining scum in the first place, but meh.
Interesting that he refers to RR/Joseph as "easy mislynches" yet still advocates killing them both. Perhaps it's just caution, but maybe it's a case of how he sees them (as mislynches).

I thought Awaclus was townie because he was sticking pretty close to his meta D1.  Obviously I don't think that is the case now.  And if your case on me is that I have reads that have changed, well that's just a crappy case.

I really remembered your post about claiming who we had requested as being you saying we should claim before the fact.  I still think that isn't a horrible idea because it ensures that people can't lie about who they requested.  I have no idea what the optimal play as scum would be in claiming and requesting.  I mean obviously they don't want to end up as partners, but I don't think that it matters that much as long as they aren't made lovers.

My talk with ADK was fishing for info, but I really don't think that that info could be used by scum in such a way to be bold enough to ask him for it.  I don't think the pros could outweigh the cons of him outing me that I asked.  I was honestly just bored, so I thought I would ask him, and got a weird response out of it.

By the end of the day, I didn't want to lynch Joseph, and really just wanted to lynch RR or Seprix.  I still think that lynching RR would be good, and I was obviously wrong on the Seprix lynch.  What swayed me was everyone else's opinion on him and his day went from being on the townier side, to being on the scummier side.

[Awaclus]

In other words: You're refusing to even try to play the game.

Oh, I am playing the game, it just looks like I'm playing a different game than you are. I'm playing a game of Mafia while you're playing a game of coin flip.

[gkrieg13]

Anyone?

[iguanaiguana]

Gkrieg seems towny today.

Vote: Awaclus

[iguanaiguana]

He seems scummy too

Vote: Gkrieg

I don't like these votes on Awaclus.

[Joseph2302]

He seems scummy too

Vote: Gkrieg

I don't like these votes on Awaclus.

Me neither really.
To me this is normal Awaclus, leaning towards town on him.

[Joseph2302]

If RR isn't happening, then the 2 lynches I'd like the most are Gkrieg and ss.

Don't feel like putting Gkrieg at L-1 right now though (as my vote would count).

So Vote: ss it is for now.

[gkrieg13]

He seems scummy too

Vote: Gkrieg

I don't like these votes on Awaclus.

I'm not sure I understand how I went from townie to scummy so quickly.

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't think the Awaclus wagon is scummy but the votes themselves might be.

[Joseph2302]

He seems scummy too

Vote: Gkrieg

I don't like these votes on Awaclus.

I'm not sure I understand how I went from townie to scummy so quickly.

When were you towny?

PPE: 1

[Joseph2302]

I don't think the Awaclus wagon is scummy but the votes themselves might be.

Once again, RR is disagreeing with me
I think Awaclus seems like an easy mislynch, because people seem kind of willing to do it. I'm leaning towards him being towny.
Ergo, scummy wagon.

[gkrieg13]

He seems scummy too

Vote: Gkrieg

I don't like these votes on Awaclus.

I'm not sure I understand how I went from townie to scummy so quickly.

When were you towny?

PPE: 1

Gkrieg seems towny today.

Vote: Awaclus

[gkrieg13]

I don't think the Awaclus wagon is scummy but the votes themselves might be.

Once again, RR is disagreeing with me
I think Awaclus seems like an easy mislynch, because people seem kind of willing to do it. I'm leaning towards him being towny.
Ergo, scummy wagon.

Isn't that the exact case for my wagon though?  I also look like a very easy mislynch because people seem willing to lynch me.

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't think the Awaclus wagon is scummy but the votes themselves might be.

Once again, RR is disagreeing with me
I think Awaclus seems like an easy mislynch, because people seem kind of willing to do it. I'm leaning towards him being towny.
Ergo, scummy wagon.

If you want to agree with me you can always change your opinions!

[Joseph2302]

I don't think the Awaclus wagon is scummy but the votes themselves might be.

Once again, RR is disagreeing with me
I think Awaclus seems like an easy mislynch, because people seem kind of willing to do it. I'm leaning towards him being towny.
Ergo, scummy wagon.

If you want to agree with me you can always change your opinions!

I don't want to agree with you, because you're scum.
But since no-one else thinks that yet, I'm going to focus on finding your buddy.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 3.3

Awaclus (2): gkrieg, silverspawn
gkrieg (1): ced, iguana
silverspawn(0): Joseph

Not voting (2): Awaclus, Roadrunner

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to majority lynch
Day ends Friday, July 1st at 5 p.m.

[Joseph2302]

Vote Count 3.3

Awaclus (2): gkrieg, silverspawn
gkrieg (1): ced, iguana
silverspawn(0): Joseph

Not voting (2): Awaclus, Roadrunner

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to majority lynch
Day ends Friday, July 1st at 5 p.m.

Interesting, I didn't think ii got an actual vote.

[Joseph2302]

Oh wait, he gets an actual vote, but because it needs 4 (an even number) to lynch, his actual vote can't affect the getting to 4.

So it doesn't matter for getting a majority lynch.

[Roadrunner7671]

I read the setup for once so I knew Iguanaiguana got a vote.

[Joseph2302]

I read the setup for once so I knew Iguanaiguana got a vote.

Yes he gets a vote, but no it doesn't matter since we need an even number of people to lynch.

[ced]

Forgot to type my response to this post.

I have been trying to be more proactive, because people said that they didn't like that I was being mainly reactive.  Trying to make cases and get people to go along with them.  My reads haven't been good this game at all, but I'm trying to get it moving after a fairly stagnant D2.

Also for those who want to know what was in the QT, I said this-> "Who are you requesting?"

To which ADK said that he didn't want to tell me, because he thought it might benefit scum to know, although he wasn't sure exactly how.

I then said->"I'm pretty sure it can't benefit me at all. It just helps me to get a better read on you. It's interesting that you don't want to answer. I don't know exactly what that means either."

ADK thought it was a scumslip because I said that I'm pretty sure it can't benefit me at all, which I didn't really get as a scum slip.  I was really just asking a question to someone I thought was townie and then he got all defensive about his choice, when I really didn't think that the claiming provides any information to scum.  The only upside to knowing who someone else is going to request is that you can be sure of one of their scum reads.

I thought Awaclus was townie because he was sticking pretty close to his meta D1.  Obviously I don't think that is the case now.  And if your case on me is that I have reads that have changed, well that's just a crappy case.

I really remembered your post about claiming who we had requested as being you saying we should claim before the fact.  I still think that isn't a horrible idea because it ensures that people can't lie about who they requested.  I have no idea what the optimal play as scum would be in claiming and requesting.  I mean obviously they don't want to end up as partners, but I don't think that it matters that much as long as they aren't made lovers.

My talk with ADK was fishing for info, but I really don't think that that info could be used by scum in such a way to be bold enough to ask him for it.  I don't think the pros could outweigh the cons of him outing me that I asked.  I was honestly just bored, so I thought I would ask him, and got a weird response out of it.

By the end of the day, I didn't want to lynch Joseph, and really just wanted to lynch RR or Seprix.  I still think that lynching RR would be good, and I was obviously wrong on the Seprix lynch.  What swayed me was everyone else's opinion on him and his day went from being on the townier side, to being on the scummier side.

Well, you're conceding a fair few points here, that's what I first noticed. E.g. "my talk with ADK was fishing", "I remembered your post differently." Not sure how I feel about that - it can be indicative of honesty, but I've seen scum defend themselves like so too. This is an aside, really.

You suggest you thought that people would request their top scumreads, right? Then why, precisely, did you ask for a before-the-fact request claim? It's, like, actively damaging to have such a claim if you think we'd otherwise request the scummiest people, since the lynch flip might change peoples' opinions. Not to mention that the scum would be interested in hearing everyone's top scumread right before night.

Re: Awaclus, my point there isn't that you might have just changed your mind (and I said as much), it's that your case was a simple one where you counted out his posts and said "look at how few posts he's talking about others!" But I don't think there wasn't much difference between how you summarized things in 1224 and what you said "seems townie" earlier. I see you presented some more detailed meta arguments in 1249, though. I'll be sure to read those and see what I think.

"Didn't want to lynch Joseph", ehh. As far as I can see, he pops up on your lists in the early and mid day, but not for any discernable reason other than the lovers-with-RR thing. AFAICT he disappears from your list when it's clear it is between RR and Seprix for the lynch and Joseph isn't on the table. Any other reason you didn't want to lynch Joseph by the end of yesterday?

?? yes I did.

I meant that you didn't post between his scumclaim and your "guess I was wrong" post. So, where were you wrong?

Gkrieg seems towny today.

Vote: Awaclus

He seems scummy too

Vote: Gkrieg

Huh?

If RR isn't happening, then the 2 lynches I'd like the most are Gkrieg and ss.

Don't feel like putting Gkrieg at L-1 right now though (as my vote would count).

So Vote: ss it is for now.

I could go for a Silver lynch too but I think Gkrieg is scummier. Also, you'd need both Awaclus and RR to vote Gkrieg to lynch him if you place a vote, so it's not really L-1.

[gkrieg13]

Forgot to type my response to this post.

I have been trying to be more proactive, because people said that they didn't like that I was being mainly reactive.  Trying to make cases and get people to go along with them.  My reads haven't been good this game at all, but I'm trying to get it moving after a fairly stagnant D2.

Also for those who want to know what was in the QT, I said this-> "Who are you requesting?"

To which ADK said that he didn't want to tell me, because he thought it might benefit scum to know, although he wasn't sure exactly how.

I then said->"I'm pretty sure it can't benefit me at all. It just helps me to get a better read on you. It's interesting that you don't want to answer. I don't know exactly what that means either."

ADK thought it was a scumslip because I said that I'm pretty sure it can't benefit me at all, which I didn't really get as a scum slip.  I was really just asking a question to someone I thought was townie and then he got all defensive about his choice, when I really didn't think that the claiming provides any information to scum.  The only upside to knowing who someone else is going to request is that you can be sure of one of their scum reads.

I thought Awaclus was townie because he was sticking pretty close to his meta D1.  Obviously I don't think that is the case now.  And if your case on me is that I have reads that have changed, well that's just a crappy case.

I really remembered your post about claiming who we had requested as being you saying we should claim before the fact.  I still think that isn't a horrible idea because it ensures that people can't lie about who they requested.  I have no idea what the optimal play as scum would be in claiming and requesting.  I mean obviously they don't want to end up as partners, but I don't think that it matters that much as long as they aren't made lovers.

My talk with ADK was fishing for info, but I really don't think that that info could be used by scum in such a way to be bold enough to ask him for it.  I don't think the pros could outweigh the cons of him outing me that I asked.  I was honestly just bored, so I thought I would ask him, and got a weird response out of it.

By the end of the day, I didn't want to lynch Joseph, and really just wanted to lynch RR or Seprix.  I still think that lynching RR would be good, and I was obviously wrong on the Seprix lynch.  What swayed me was everyone else's opinion on him and his day went from being on the townier side, to being on the scummier side.

Well, you're conceding a fair few points here, that's what I first noticed. E.g. "my talk with ADK was fishing", "I remembered your post differently." Not sure how I feel about that - it can be indicative of honesty, but I've seen scum defend themselves like so too. This is an aside, really.

I mean I really did remember your post differently.

You suggest you thought that people would request their top scumreads, right? Then why, precisely, did you ask for a before-the-fact request claim? It's, like, actively damaging to have such a claim if you think we'd otherwise request the scummiest people, since the lynch flip might change peoples' opinions. Not to mention that the scum would be interested in hearing everyone's top scumread right before night.

I didn't think that it would expose the top scum read of everyone right before we go into the night.  I don't actually think that helps scum out that much in this setup anyway.  I don't think many people would've said that faust was their towniest read, in fact I think people would've said that they were going to request him.  I really don't think it would've been very damaging, but I agree that there isn't really anything to be gained by claiming before the fact.  I'm not very good at theory stuff.

Re: Awaclus, my point there isn't that you might have just changed your mind (and I said as much), it's that your case was a simple one where you counted out his posts and said "look at how few posts he's talking about others!" But I don't think there wasn't much difference between how you summarized things in 1224 and what you said "seems townie" earlier. I see you presented some more detailed meta arguments in 1249, though. I'll be sure to read those and see what I think.

Ok so I started my reread on Awaclus trying to build a case.  The case was hard to build at first because he doesn't have very many posts about the actual game or about his reads.  Mainly it is about theory of mafia, or things that aren't related to the game.  So then I just started counting the posts, because I was surprised at how little content there actually was.  Like it is really hard to build a case for him being townie or scummy because there really just isn't that much there.

You really should reread him before you talk about my case like this.  I agree that my first case wasn't the best, and I did it while watching tv, so I went back and made the other case when I could really concentrate a little bit more.

"Didn't want to lynch Joseph", ehh. As far as I can see, he pops up on your lists in the early and mid day, but not for any discernable reason other than the lovers-with-RR thing. AFAICT he disappears from your list when it's clear it is between RR and Seprix for the lynch and Joseph isn't on the table. Any other reason you didn't want to lynch Joseph by the end of yesterday?

Well I didn't think that Joseph and RR could possibly be the scum team, so I felt like (and still feel like) RR was a lot scummier.  If you look at the way that he handled the Jimmmmm lynch, I still think that he is one of the scummier people from that day.  I mean he says that he would be really happy with a Jimmmmm lynch and then after more people vote for him, he says that he would rather no lynch than lynch Jimmmm.  That is a huge flip-flop on someone who flipped scum.  So the fact that I reread the day and found that RR was scummier made me not want to lynch Joseph.  Joseph is actually fairly townie throughout D1, but I hadn't been following along that closely because I had been busy with other things.

?? yes I did.

I meant that you didn't post between his scumclaim and your "guess I was wrong" post. So, where were you wrong?

Gkrieg seems towny today.

Vote: Awaclus

He seems scummy too

Vote: Gkrieg

Huh?

If RR isn't happening, then the 2 lynches I'd like the most are Gkrieg and ss.

Don't feel like putting Gkrieg at L-1 right now though (as my vote would count).

So Vote: ss it is for now.

I could go for a Silver lynch too but I think Gkrieg is scummier. Also, you'd need both Awaclus and RR to vote Gkrieg to lynch him if you place a vote, so it's not really L-1.

My responses are in bold

[silverspawn]

I meant that you didn't post between his scumclaim and your "guess I was wrong" post. So, where were you wrong?

I was wrong that Seprix is town - I thought. Turns out I was right after all.

[iguanaiguana]

Gkrieg's prompting us all seemed towny for a minute.

Then I thought about wagon positioning and how scum are more likely to vote early and/or vote with their partner on a fellow town and realized that two early votes that count on Awaclus should be town indicative for him and scum indicative for those who cast the votes. Gkrieg seemed a little scummier than silver and here we are.

[gkrieg13]

Gkrieg's prompting us all seemed towny for a minute.

Then I thought about wagon positioning and how scum are more likely to vote early and/or vote with their partner on a fellow town and realized that two early votes that count on Awaclus should be town indicative for him and scum indicative for those who cast the votes. Gkrieg seemed a little scummier than silver and here we are.

I don't think scum is more likely to vote early here.  I'm dead in all other games so I'm actually giving this game a lot of time.  So I had done some rereading and wanted to put a vote down to get things moving