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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown  (Read 83182 times)

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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #175 on: May 16, 2016, 02:37:13 pm »
+4

I'm sad this back-and-forth is in the Crown-thread, because I think it's an awesome card; I love the boldness of finally making that coveted Action - Treasure. Hey you can even draw it with Adventurer and play it as an Action! Magpie can find it and you can use it on another Magpie! It's just great all around and most importantly... fun.
I don't want you to be sad, so I'll just split it off. And since we don't need it somewhere else either, I'll just delete it. Hope you had fun, Awaclus.

Edit: There was some collateral damage, sorry anyone who liked their post that's gone; but note that everyone got to keep their respect, hooray.

Well, I'm sad about this discussion, but I'm happy about the previews and in the end that's the emotion that prevails so overall I'm pretty happy. I quite enjoyed the thrill of F5-ing, thinking about timezones and when I could somewhat expect a new card. And I really like the direction we've gone into.

Each expansion added something wacky and new and that's great; it amazes me that it took Empires for people to actually complain about it. Or are people still ranting about Colony and Platinum? Do people still find it difficult to track their Durations? Maybe. Are Action - Victory cards still confusing people? And what about those Shelters, it kills Baron and, and... Scout. >:( Hovel is really weird, it's just a Reaction with no main card type, surely such an abomination may not exist, kill it with fire! And Jack needs to go back in the box. Events? Since when is it okay to buy something that's not a card? A Tavern mat? Is that the place to put your beer mug on? Travellers? What is this, Doctor Who?
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Mavy2k

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #176 on: May 16, 2016, 02:37:37 pm »
0

What I really do not understand is the sublimal hostility towards Donald and the smirk posts without providing anything useful to the discussion, just for the sake of arguing. Why, just why?
If this had been a few minutes earlier I would have just deleted it with the rest, but instead I edited it so you didn't wonder, wtf where is my post. So this is the part that wasn't part of The Continuing Story of Awaclus. It's uh. It's not exactly good times but you get to say it anyway. Which I guess is part of the explanation you're looking for too.

Thanks for the explanation. I was indeed very confused after my post ;-)
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dane-m

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #177 on: May 16, 2016, 02:43:26 pm »
+2

I'm sad this back-and-forth is in the Crown-thread, because I think it's an awesome card; I love the boldness of finally making that coveted Action - Treasure. Hey you can even draw it with Adventurer and play it as an Action! Magpie can find it and you can use it on another Magpie! It's just great all around and most importantly... fun.
I was surprised that Crown provoked negative reactions as I feel it's a very elegant card in the sense that the rules for it are very simple (it could quite happily have been in the base set), yet it has great potential for novel play features.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #178 on: May 16, 2016, 02:45:21 pm »
+9

As far as I can tell, Donald X. misunderstood my original post and then he has been arguing against his own misunderstanding, but he clearly doesn't like it when he has to defend his positions because he has stopped doing so, so I can't know for sure.
I don't believe so, and you are utterly incorrect about me. You can easily find as much evidence as you want of me defending positions endlessly against people who seemed like they were actually listening.

Also your post has vanished.

If necessary I will try to get theory to ban you.
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RevanFan

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #179 on: May 16, 2016, 03:02:54 pm »
0

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #180 on: May 16, 2016, 03:05:07 pm »
+12

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?

Yup.  First you put it in your hand, because it's a Treasure.  Then you gain a Magpie, because it's an Action.  That's... pretty fantastic, to be honest.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #181 on: May 16, 2016, 03:26:37 pm »
+2

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?

Yup.  First you put it in your hand, because it's a Treasure.  Then you gain a Magpie, because it's an Action.  That's... pretty fantastic, to be honest.

Yeah. basically the same as gaining one with Ironworks (except you need a cost-reducer first)... it will give you both +1 action and +$1. Oh, and if you Inherited them, then gaining one with Ironworks will give you a full Peddler effect.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #182 on: May 16, 2016, 04:01:41 pm »
0

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?

Yup.  First you put it in your hand, because it's a Treasure.  Then you gain a Magpie, because it's an Action.  That's... pretty fantastic, to be honest.

Yeah. basically the same as gaining one with Ironworks (except you need a cost-reducer first)... it will give you both +1 action and +$1. Oh, and if you Inherited them, then gaining one with Ironworks will give you a full Peddler effect.

?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #183 on: May 16, 2016, 04:03:18 pm »
+3

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?

Yup.  First you put it in your hand, because it's a Treasure.  Then you gain a Magpie, because it's an Action.  That's... pretty fantastic, to be honest.

Yeah. basically the same as gaining one with Ironworks (except you need a cost-reducer first)... it will give you both +1 action and +$1. Oh, and if you Inherited them, then gaining one with Ironworks will give you a full Peddler effect.

?

Inherited Crowns are Action-Treasure-Victory cards, so Ironworks will give you +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #184 on: May 16, 2016, 04:11:09 pm »
0

Inherited Crowns are Action-Treasure-Victory cards, so Ironworks will give you +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1.

You have to Ironworks the Estate for that, though, not the Crown. Which is maybe what you meant -- I'm not sure. (I'm going based on the wording in the Wiki, which calls them "Inherited Estates")
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Accatitippi

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #185 on: May 16, 2016, 04:32:09 pm »
+3

Penguins can't fly.

Buy more Catapults.

I love the way these posts were spared, and are now left as a monument to non-sequiturs and pastry.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #186 on: May 16, 2016, 04:42:56 pm »
+1

Inherited Crowns are Action-Treasure-Victory cards, so Ironworks will give you +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1.

You have to Ironworks the Estate for that, though, not the Crown. Which is maybe what you meant -- I'm not sure. (I'm going based on the wording in the Wiki, which calls them "Inherited Estates")

Yes, I was talking about Ironworking Estates after Inheriting Crown. But yeah, I wasn't clear about that in the way I said it.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #187 on: May 16, 2016, 05:25:02 pm »
+9

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?

Yup.  First you put it in your hand, because it's a Treasure.  Then you gain a Magpie, because it's an Action.  That's... pretty fantastic, to be honest.

Yeah. basically the same as gaining one with Ironworks (except you need a cost-reducer first)... it will give you both +1 action and +$1. Oh, and if you Inherited them, then gaining one with Ironworks will give you a full Peddler effect.

Also, Full Peddler Effect would be a great name for a band.

ConMan

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #188 on: May 16, 2016, 07:51:04 pm »
+2

I was surprised that Crown provoked negative reactions as I feel it's a very elegant card in the sense that the rules for it are very simple (it could quite happily have been in the base set), yet it has great potential for novel play features.
I made a comment, and I think I said it in one of the Crown preview threads, about how Empires was shaping up to be the most complex set. I didn't mean it to appear that negative, but I can understand it being read as such, and for that I'm sorry. I actually think that Crown is incredibly simple rules-wise, and I think that it is an excellent choice for an Action-Treasure card - in fact, I think it's one of those ones that seems obvious in hindsight since it's an effect that actively takes advantage of its dual nature for more than just "can't be drawn dead" (as I predicted it ought to). Its complexity comes from the emergent behaviour when you combine it with other cards, that results in things that, again, make sense, but go even further to press the boundaries of how we think a Dominion card "should" work.

So if it seemed like I was blaming or attacking Donald for something, I really wasn't. And I look forward to playing with Empires, hopefully some time after I finally get my head around Adventures properly.
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tristan

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #189 on: May 17, 2016, 02:23:56 am »
0

I'm sad this back-and-forth is in the Crown-thread, because I think it's an awesome card; I love the boldness of finally making that coveted Action - Treasure. Hey you can even draw it with Adventurer and play it as an Action! Magpie can find it and you can use it on another Magpie! It's just great all around and most importantly... fun.
I was surprised that Crown provoked negative reactions as I feel it's a very elegant card in the sense that the rules for it are very simple (it could quite happily have been in the base set), yet it has great potential for novel play features.
Totally agree. It is a simple and straightforward card. You could e.g. argue that KC is more complex than Crown, not in terms of design but in terms of execution and tracking.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #190 on: May 17, 2016, 02:53:59 am »
0

And let's face it, we mostly play online and then all of these tracking issues aren't really an issue anymore.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #191 on: May 17, 2016, 05:15:15 am »
+3

Overall, I'm pretty sure that Adventures is the most complex set and will remain that way.

Let's compare the two expansions.

Adventures
Tokens: Okay, this is a big one, but irl, it's easy to forget about token abilities
Reserves: It can be pretty easy to forget about these, especially irl.
Events: Adds more components/extra complexity. Also, easy to forget about irl. Though, Empires has Events, but this set introduced them which makes Adventures more complex since people are seeing them and getting used to them here.
Inheritance: Easy to forget irl that your estates are Inherited. See tokens.
Travellers: Easy to forget to upgrade, plus adds 5 cards per kingdom. Technically BM and Tournament do that as well, but it's a lot to keep track of, especially if both Travellers show up in a Kingdom.
Duration-Attacks: Potentially easy to forget an attack like Swamp Hag is in play. We've seen Enchantress, but again, introduced in this expansion.

So, yah, that's a lot of complexity, and I have not named everything.

Empires
Landmarks: I'm pretty sure these are easier than Events. You have to go in thinking more about strategy, but not an extra card to buy.
Debt: You can pay off a card later. Seems simple enough.
Split Piles: These seem the most complex thing of the expansion. You now have to be aware of an extra card underneath and think about whether it is worth digging to get to the card underneath.
Crown: Not really complex. I mentioned earlier this could have appeared in Intrigue, and it would have fit in well there. The effect is pretty straightforward and easy to grasp.
VP tokens: We've seen these in Prosperity. Most people buying this will have likely played with/own Prosperity.

So, overall, I'm pretty sure that Adventures is more complex than Empires by a pretty huge margin. Nonetheless, Empires is still a pretty complex expansion, at least for Dominion.
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junkers

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #192 on: May 17, 2016, 05:44:56 am »
0

Landmarks: I'm pretty sure these are easier than Events. You have to go in thinking more about strategy, but not an extra card to buy.

On the face of it, they look less complex because you're only dealing with them/calculating them at the end of the game. But you could argue that because you have to cross-check whether a certain card is worth picking up because of the potential benefit it grants you from landmarks, they're actually just as complex as a regular kingdom card.
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #193 on: May 17, 2016, 05:58:46 am »
+2

It's very clear that different people see complexity in different places.

For me, one issue is the cognitive load while playing - not just in terms of all the rules I have to think about, but also strategic considerations and what the other players are up to.

Another is how well I can form a consistent mental model of what's going on, and therefore internalise it.

So for me, the oddity that debt behaves like potions when considering card costs but is altogether novel when actually buying is an irregularity, and therefore a complexity. Crown meaning cards played in the action phase can be Treasures in play and vice-versa disrupts my existing mental model of how Dominion works, and is therefore a complexity.

Gathering and Castles (and, to a lesser extent, split piles) look like they will necessitate closer consideration of what opponents are doing and when. That's complexity. It's also complexity down a completely different axis, meaning you have to be thinking about more kinds of thing during a game.

Landmarks are, in some senses, permanent reactions: things you have to think about all the time rather than just when you play/buy/gain/trash/whatever that specific thing. To me, that's the same kind of complexity as having a Watchtower in hand or Duchess in the supply, only a bit more so.


In Adventures, needing to keep track of where tokens are is, indeed, a complexity. But Events, I found 100% straightforward - no more complex than adding a couple more kingdom piles would be. Reserves are, if anything, simpler than Durations (no risk of losing track of which ones you played this turn and which ones last). What I mainly found complex in Adventures was all the gnarly detail around the interaction of tokens with Band of Misfits and Inheritance, whether or not you could upgrade an Inherited-Page, the precise implications of Storyteller, etc.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 11:44:51 am by crj »
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #194 on: May 17, 2016, 06:27:24 am »
+2

Here are some more interesting interactions:
  • You can Mine a Silver into a Crown and get a TR in hand that way
  • Thief gets a small boost
  • Herbalist becomes a Scheme!
  • Mint can copy it!
  • It counts towards Bank, even if you play it during the Action phase
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Asper

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #195 on: May 17, 2016, 07:11:17 am »
+12

Yeah, i guess i took personal offense at some of the cards. Why that is, i don't want to explain, because that's not what this thread's about, but it is my own problem entirely, and i shouldn't have made it anyone else's problem. It was obviously really rude and inappropriate, and i'd like to apologize for that again. I mean, it's really that typical fan behaviour where you cn't accept your idol is doing something you don't like. Suddenly he's the bad guy who let you down, how dare he? Ugh. I don't know what got into me.

Before i already apologized for my behaviour, but i wanted to make a point by explaining how i saw that my premise itself, that debt could have been done better, was invalid. I wasn't trying to start a discussion on that topic again, just clear up doubt and maybe say something positive, but, well, it probably came out pretty awkward. I guess there's a few lessons to learn here. Sorry.
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junkers

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #196 on: May 17, 2016, 08:34:48 am »
0

    • You can Mine a Silver into a Crown and get a TR in hand that way
    • It counts towards Bank, even if you play it during the Action phase
    These two subtle things in particular make me very glad that Crown exists. It's not just another TR variant, slightly more expensive or slightly less powerful - it's a TR variant that effects other cards and enters ours decks in ways that run contrary to what we've been playing with thus far.
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    werothegreat

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #197 on: May 17, 2016, 09:35:35 am »
    +1

    Herbalist becomes a Scheme!

    Due to the difference in Herbalist's and Scheme's wording, Herbalist can topdeck a Crown doubling a Duration, whereas a Scheme cannot.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #198 on: May 17, 2016, 10:05:41 am »
    +1



    What seems to me like the most complex thing in Empires is the introduction of the mechanic of things that do different things based on which phase you're in. It's not complex in the same way that you're talking about (easy to forget), but things like Villa and Crown do bring up a lot of rules questions based on their interactions with other cards. The casual Dominion player has less of an intuitive sense of what the different phases are in general. This is not to say that Empires is too complicated, but it's something that's easy to overlook.

    Davio

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #199 on: May 17, 2016, 02:13:29 pm »
    0

    Herbalist becomes a Scheme!

    Due to the difference in Herbalist's and Scheme's wording, Herbalist can topdeck a Crown doubling a Duration, whereas a Scheme cannot.
    Luckily we already accepted that a Duration could still be doubled without the doubled card having to be attached to it.

    In fact, I think it would have probably been easier from the get-go to just use little tokens to remind you that you TR-ed or KC-ed a Duration instead of leaving them attached.
    « Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 02:14:37 pm by Davio »
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