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[eHalcyon]

And could he really not make Debt without introducing a third currency?

I don't want to get into too much Secret History stuff, but Debt went through a lot of different versions and this was in fact the one that worked the best.

Debt seems simple enough to me in general.  I mean, it doesn't seem any more complex to me than Seasons.  Also, I don't think it should be thought of as a third currency other than for cost comparisons.

[Donald X.]

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

[Seprix]

Dominion is naturally going to get more complicated as more cards are added. It's just logical that it will happen. There's only so much you can do with certain things before you'd have to move on and try something else. Debt is an interesting mechanic, so are piles with different cards. Tons you can do with those.

I want to see a new set like Dark Ages, with tons of trashing mechanics. Man, that would be fun. Still my favorite set.

[pacovf]

And could he really not make Debt without introducing a third currency?

I don't want to get into too much Secret History stuff, but Debt went through a lot of different versions and this was in fact the one that worked the best.

Debt seems simple enough to me in general.  I mean, it doesn't seem any more complex to me than Seasons.  Also, I don't think it should be thought of as a third currency other than for cost comparisons.

You are misunderstanding Asper's complaint, I think. He is not saying that Debt is a complex concept, but that he feels like Donald in the past managed to implement new concepts (from a gameplay perspective) without introducing new rules. And debt (he says) feels like something he should have been able to do similarly, yet he introduced tokens instead. Which makes him sad.

I don't remember if you said why you left the forums, Asper, but I feel like you might just be getting burnt out from the game

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

[eHalcyon]

And could he really not make Debt without introducing a third currency?

I don't want to get into too much Secret History stuff, but Debt went through a lot of different versions and this was in fact the one that worked the best.

Debt seems simple enough to me in general.  I mean, it doesn't seem any more complex to me than Seasons.  Also, I don't think it should be thought of as a third currency other than for cost comparisons.

You are misunderstanding Asper's complaint, I think. He is not saying that Debt is a complex concept, but that he feels like Donald in the past managed to implement new concepts (from a gameplay perspective) without introducing new rules. And debt (he says) feels like something he should have been able to do similarly, yet he introduced tokens instead. Which makes him sad.

I don't remember if you said why you left the forums, Asper, but I feel like you might just be getting burnt out from the game

If that's the case, I guess I don't understand why this counts as "introducing new rules" and stuff like Adventures tokens and Travellers did not.  Or if those do too, I don't understand why Debt is crossing a line.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to put down Asper here.  I'm just trying to understand.  I'd love to hear more of Asper's thoughts.

[wachsmuth]

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

Still doesn't compare to games with Mission, Outpost and Possession at the same time.

[pacovf]

If that's the case, I guess I don't understand why this counts as "introducing new rules" and stuff like Adventures tokens and Travellers did not.  Or if those do too, I don't understand why Debt is crossing a line.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to put down Asper here.  I'm just trying to understand.  I'd love to hear more of Asper's thoughts.

Well, Travellers and Adventures tokens were obviously impossible to do with the preexisting ruleset, which I guess makes them different to Debt, in that there might have been a way, but uh I should probably do the smart thing and stop speaking for other people.

[Seprix]

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

Still doesn't compare to games with Mission, Outpost and Possession at the same time.

Ah! Which one comes first!?

[werothegreat]

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

Still doesn't compare to games with Mission, Outpost and Possession at the same time.

Ah! Which one comes first!?

Outpost/Mission (you choose, but if you choose Mission first, the Outpost turn can't happen), then Possession.

[Seprix]

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

Still doesn't compare to games with Mission, Outpost and Possession at the same time.

Ah! Which one comes first!?

Outpost/Mission (you choose, but if you choose Mission first, the Outpost turn can't happen), then Possession.

That wasn't so bad. Any reason you'd take the Mission turn first over Outpost?

[J Reggie]

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

Still doesn't compare to games with Mission, Outpost and Possession at the same time.

Ah! Which one comes first!?

Outpost/Mission (you choose, but if you choose Mission first, the Outpost turn can't happen), then Possession.

That wasn't so bad. Any reason you'd take the Mission turn first over Outpost?

You misclicked. I don't know why else.

[Seprix]

You misclicked. I don't know why else.

I have a reason why you'd do it.

[michaeljb]

Sometimes, I feel like Dominion has become as complex as Magic.

But is Dominion Turing complete yet?

http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/

[Seprix]

Sometimes, I feel like Dominion has become as complex as Magic.

But is Dominion Turing complete yet?

http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/

If I could even understand what makes something Turing or not, I could potentially try to build it.

edit: I have more of an understanding of a Turing Complete machine now. Magic is 10000x more complex than Dominion, and I do not think you could build such a machine with Dominion. I'll make a thread about it anyways.

[Voltaire]

I played Empires with people new to Dominion. Very little real-life confusion. 90% of the rules questions/"confusion" you see on f.ds is divorced from reality and what you will actually see when playing (and that goes for all of Dominion, not just Empires).

[pacovf]

To be fair, as a teacher I had used to say:

"Any questions?"
[no answer]
"That means you didn't understand a thing."

(Not disagreeing with your overall point, rather with your specific example. Why am I saying anything then? Because no true f.dser would miss a chance to be pedantic)

[Donald X.]

To be fair, as a teacher I had used to say:

"Any questions?"
[no answer]
"That means you didn't understand a thing."

(Not disagreeing with your overall point, rather with your specific example. Why am I saying anything then? Because no true f.dser would miss a chance to be pedantic)

I see; any questions or no questions, both mean the cards are unacceptably complex. They hate you if you're clever, and they despise a fool.

He didn't say there were no questions. Man. They just weren't questions about Black Market or what have you. It's not there on the table; it's not on their minds.

The #1 question for Debt was "can you win if you have Debt."

[crj]

My most recent rules "question" was "Wait - I have a Native Village in hand. That means I have to double-check whether or not Trade Route gives me cash even if I have no cards left in hand to trash, before I decide which of my cards to put back first after being attacked with Rabble."

Last Adventures game I played, someone needed to know what happened if they Inherited from Port.

It probably doesn't help that 90% of the people I game with are mathematicians and/or software engineers...

(PS: And one of them wrote that article proving M:tG is Turing Complete.)

[markusin]

All I know is I would be skeptical to introduce this expansion to players that are relatively new to Dominion (I mean, just Villa is incredibly intense). This is really looking like an expansion for the hardcore Dominion fans. At this stage of Dominion's life, I think that's fine.

I do feel like Crown was more about pushing boundaries with a Treasure-Action card coming into existence, to "prove it can be done", rather than it really being an impactful card in its own right. Similar story with Caravan Guard.

Still excited to see the rest of this set.

[Donald X.]

I do feel like Crown was more about pushing boundaries with a Treasure-Action card coming into existence, to "prove it can be done", rather than it really being an impactful card in its own right. Similar story with Caravan Guard.

Nope, Crown started as an Action, and then didn't want to be drawn dead.

[Davio]

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

Well, we're at the point where the only people buying the newest expansions are pretty serious players.
And those players often like the added complexities and uniqueness of the newer cards/events/landmarks, etc..

I'm all for innovation, I like being surprised like this. I look forward to totally underestimating a card (Jack did this to me), or totally overestimating some (Pirate Ship). Man, I don't want to see many more vanilla stuff, it's good for balance and to make actual playable combos, but I like the Counting Houses and Coppersmiths of the Dominion world; at least they bring something unique to the game.

[Asper]

My concern was for debt being different than coins when you compared costs. I mean, i remodel a 8-debt card, now i can gain a 0$-2$, or a $2+8-debt-card, or a 4-debt-card. It's just weird to have "you may underpay" as a whole new currency. I'm not saying i have a better solution at hand immediately here (i tried it as an overpay variant), just that i think there must be one, and that i would have expected Donald to find it.

For Crown, i think the better solution is a Reaction that triggers at the start of your buy phase, as mentioned before.

[ThetaSigma12]

For Crown, i think the better solution is a Reaction that triggers at the start of your buy phase, as mentioned before.

What's wrong with an action-treasure?

The main complaint I've heard is "It's too hard to remember whether you played it as an action or a treasure" Dominion has a lot of memory. I don't think duration are stupid because you have to leave them out. Mining village isn't stupid because if you trash it you can forget how many actions you have. Seasons is a great expansion even though it's easy to forget to move the marker.
EDIT: 100th respect! Thx AJD! 

[Beyond Awesome]

I think Crown would be more complicated as a reaction. I get what you're saying, but it works just fine on its current form.

Also, by making Debt is own cost, it saves putting extra text on cards. You see the Debt symbol, and barring edge cases, you understand, you pay what you can now and pay off the rest later.

I played two Empires games. Both Debt and Crown were pretty straightforward in terms of how they played out.