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Author Topic: "Features" threads  (Read 90467 times)

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faust

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #275 on: November 18, 2016, 10:29:04 am »
0

Having a draw available is also a nice tool if you have to leave unexpectedly and your opponent is a nice guy. Covering "starve to death" scenarios is merely a nice side effect.
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SettingFraming

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #276 on: November 18, 2016, 11:06:20 am »
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Having a draw available is also a nice tool if you have to leave unexpectedly and your opponent is a nice guy. Covering "starve to death" scenarios is merely a nice side effect.

This would make more sense if draws were a no-op in terms of rankings. For those near the top of the leaderboard taking a draw, even in an even game, would be disincentivized.
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Jacob marley

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #277 on: November 18, 2016, 11:53:49 am »
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Having a draw available is also a nice tool if you have to leave unexpectedly and your opponent is a nice guy. Covering "starve to death" scenarios is merely a nice side effect.

It's not really necessary for even that, IMO.  If you have to leave unexpectedly, the correct thing to do is explain this in the chat and resign.  I'd be offended if someone said "I have to go, let's call this a draw."
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Calamitas

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #278 on: November 18, 2016, 03:43:24 pm »
+1

Having a draw available is also a nice tool if you have to leave unexpectedly and your opponent is a nice guy. Covering "starve to death" scenarios is merely a nice side effect.

It's not really necessary for even that, IMO.  If you have to leave unexpectedly, the correct thing to do is explain this in the chat and resign.  I'd be offended if someone said "I have to go, let's call this a draw."
Dependent on the situation.
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cactus

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #279 on: November 18, 2016, 04:07:51 pm »
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Guys, draws happen so close to never in Dominion. It's not something worthy of being put in as a feature. It would be an okay feature, but it's just so unbelievably rare that it's not worth any of this.

I've had one draw happen before, in a very very specific circumstance, and although it was tough to resolve due to my opponent being Japanese, in most situations I think the players can just work it out without the need for an official feature.

Stalemate happen incredibly rarely in Dominion (thanks to some very canny game design and a lot of painstaking play testing) so you would be right there is no point having a mutually agreed draw as an option if it was only for stalemates.

I play Dominion in a very competitive way but usually only against one other opponent - not against all comers like most competitive Dominion players (this might be because we are in Australia so when we started playing there weren't many other good players online at the times we were playing - or it could be I get particular joy from beating someone I know). At any rate my point is that there are other reasons players might want to agree to a draw in addition to stalemate. Sometimes my friend and I resign a game before it starts because it contain a particular card (I'm one of those people with a bit of a bee in my bonnet about Rebuild) or we might agree not to play a kingdom if it looks like a very clear cut mirror. The second edition of Dominion is IMO going to reduce the number of clear cut mirror kingdoms (less weak cards = less kingdoms where there is a single stronge card or combo that must be bought) and if there is a way to veto certain cards then I guess my desire for a mutual draw feature won't be so strong.

cactus

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #280 on: November 18, 2016, 04:21:52 pm »
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Having a draw available is also a nice tool if you have to leave unexpectedly and your opponent is a nice guy. Covering "starve to death" scenarios is merely a nice side effect.

It's not really necessary for even that, IMO.  If you have to leave unexpectedly, the correct thing to do is explain this in the chat and resign.  I'd be offended if someone said "I have to go, let's call this a draw."
Dependent on the situation.

This is an interesting one. I agree that if I unexpectedly have to leave a game early (dealing with a baby that has just woken up used to be a pretty common experience for me) then good form dictates I should resign. But if there other player had to end the game early and they were winning I would be happy to accept a mutually agreed draw if I thought I still had some small chance in the game  (or if I thought I had no chance I'd just resign myself).

The ultimate end point should be that each players win/loss record and ranking accurately reflects their actual playing ability.

mameluke

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #281 on: November 18, 2016, 05:07:52 pm »
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Sometimes the board just sucks and neither player really wants to play it. I had a game the other day where all 10 kingdom cards were Action cards and none of them had +1 Action or +buy. It was just a sad money game with not much strategy, but we played through it anyways. In my IRL group we would have replaced a card or two.
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popsofctown

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #282 on: November 22, 2016, 01:52:54 am »
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Those games are literally the best

(On a serious note, does +buy impact terminal BM boards apart from Wharf?  Like I feel you buy the same number of Margraves even without it..
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 01:54:30 am by popsofctown »
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faust

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #283 on: November 22, 2016, 11:42:54 am »
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(On a serious note, does +buy impact terminal BM boards apart from Wharf?  Like I feel you buy the same number of Margraves even without it..
Council Room, Counterfeit, Tactician are some cards that may be used in terminal BM and their +buy makes a difference. Margrave doesn't make a big difference, but I might buy Rabble over Margrave without the buy, and I usually would buy Margrave over Rabble.
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popsofctown

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #284 on: November 22, 2016, 05:29:05 pm »
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Counterfeit amd tactician both cannot appear in the kingdom he described anyway though.

Council room has an extremely hard time being the best terminal BM on the table.  But yeah it definitely has a buy that is meaningful in the tiny sliver of kingdoms where it's the best BM 5.
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faust

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #285 on: November 22, 2016, 06:46:36 pm »
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Also +buy gets immediately relevant with the right Events (Quest/Annex etc.)
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faust

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #286 on: November 22, 2016, 06:48:56 pm »
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Council room has an extremely hard time being the best terminal BM on the table.  But yeah it definitely has a buy that is meaningful in the tiny sliver of kingdoms where it's the best BM 5.

Well uh I don't know what BM enabler with +buy you are thinking of that is better than Council Room or Margrave. Wharf doesn't count as you already said the +buy matters there. So what are we even talking about?
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popsofctown

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #287 on: November 24, 2016, 12:24:31 am »
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I meant amongst all Terminal BM, not just ones with +buy.  Councilroom's sad fate is that usually when it finally finds a villageless board and wants to be a BM card, the board has an Embassy or Journeyman or something.  (It's much better as an engine card).
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Hertz_Doughnut

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #288 on: November 29, 2016, 01:59:16 am »
+3

I taught my 4-year-old to play Dominion with a forked version of Goko Salvager that was basically a "kid mode" which limited the game as follows:

- Removed the scary cards:
var JackIsASweetInnocentBoy = " /witch /youngwitch /harem /thief /torturer /seahag /alchemy /fortuneteller /cultist /urchin /deathcart /mystic /altar /graverobber /rogue /soothsayer /cutpurse"

- Forced all games to be against Serf Bot

He loved it.  A fun way to teach basic math and logic skills. (Which the world needs more of!)
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Hertz_Doughnut

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #289 on: November 29, 2016, 02:48:41 am »
+2

Quick thoughts on draws:

1) Draws are a bug, not a feature of chess tournaments. Tournament play degenerates when players can agree to draws. Originally, drawn chess games were replayed, but in 1867, the British Chess Association was vexed by having too many games needing to be replayed to keep their rounds on schedule, so they made an ad hoc ruling to split the win. Now that's tradition, and the chess community is plagued with grandmaster draws where players intentionally don't play a game of chess for external reasons ("let's save our energy for Bobby Fischer" or "let's split the prize money"). Tournament organizers have to go to great lengths to encourage players not to draw. (At Millionaire Chess, they gave out a trip to Hawaii.)

2) All situations mentioned so far here can be addressed by (a) quitting and replaying or (b) aborting and resuming. If you're in the Possession / Donate death spiral, choose (a).  If your baby woke up when you were winning, choose (b).

...

Now that I've written that, how exactly does the resume function work? If my opponent refuses to resume, can I claim that he resigned? Hmmm...
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JW

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #290 on: November 29, 2016, 03:08:29 am »
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Quick thoughts on draws:

1) Draws are a bug, not a feature of chess tournaments. Tournament play degenerates when players can agree to draws. Originally, drawn chess games were replayed, but in 1867, the British Chess Association was vexed by having too many games needing to be replayed to keep their rounds on schedule, so they made an ad hoc ruling to split the win. Now that's tradition, and the chess community is plagued with grandmaster draws where players intentionally don't play a game of chess for external reasons ("let's save our energy for Bobby Fischer" or "let's split the prize money"). Tournament organizers have to go to great lengths to encourage players not to draw. (At Millionaire Chess, they gave out a trip to Hawaii.)

Dominion players in the league can already agree to a 3-3 split without a draw feature. Yet, as far as I am aware this does not happen and is not a concern, and so neither is an explicit draw feature.

Edit: Deadlock points out below that agreeing to a 3-3 split is against the league rules. With an explicit draw feature, this rule would also prohibit non-competitively agreeing to a draw of individual games. It's already the case that players could simply agree, separate from the Dominion online results, to consider a game a tie.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 08:23:50 pm by JW »
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Deadlock39

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #291 on: November 29, 2016, 07:58:11 pm »
+4

Dominion players in the league can already agree to a 3-3 split without a draw feature. Yet, as far as I am aware this does not happen and is not a concern, and so neither is an explicit draw feature.

Doing this would actually be in violation of the most recent revision of the League Rules & Regulations That were updated in May.

VI. Playing Competitively

All players in the league are expected to complete all of their matches as competitively as possible. There are times when it may appear that your remaining games cannot effect your standings, but this is very seldom the case. The average points per player in a full group each season is 15, and 6 points are at stake in each match. In some groups, the difference between 1st and 6th place has been less than 2 points at the end of the season.  Even if your personal promotion/demotion status is guaranteed, it is still not acceptable to complete games non-competitively. It is possible for the result of any match to determine the fate of another player by way of the 2nd tiebreaker points. It is unfair to other players in your group if you do not complete your matches properly. Players who are found to have forfeited games or matches, colluded with other players, or posted results that were non-competitive in other ways may be banned from the league for up to 4 Seasons depending on the severity of the offense. Repeat offenders may receive a longer ban period or be permanently banned from the league.  If anyone suggests recording a result that you feel is in violation of this policy, please report it to your League moderator immediately.

mameluke

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #292 on: December 01, 2016, 09:04:58 am »
+1

One month to go! Yee-haw!
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JThorne

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #293 on: December 01, 2016, 12:06:10 pm »
+3

I'm guessing that a lot of these are already taken care of, but I'll list them for the sake of completeness:

1. Always make the entire card name in your hand readable. The number of times I've had a big hand in MF and have had to identify my hand by the top-left corner of the card art is silly. I assume this was done on day one of the new client.

2. Disambiguate the card-selection actions better. The MF colored borders aren't enough, as has been pointed out many times, and the plus sign on the pile selection even when not gaining is terrible UI design.

3. Allow undo for non-information-providing actions. I allow this in IRL games. For example, if you play a terminal draw card, then realize you didn't play a village first, there's no undoing, because you have looked at the cards that you drew, which provides information you didn't have before making the "error." However, if you trash a card, then change your mind, you should be able to pick it back up and trash a different one, or even rewind the trasher action to your hand (as long as it isn't something like Junk Dealer or Lookout, which draw or reveal cards.)

The implementation of this wouldn't be too difficult: Keep a list of the information-providing occurences that can occur in a game of Dominion and use those as stop points beyond which the undo command is not permitted to rewind. Playing actions or treasure cards from hand is not inherently information-providing (information given to your opponent would not count.) Going from action to treasure phase is not inherently information-providing. Trashing cards is not inherently information-providing. Gaining cards is not information-providing, except for gains from a randomized pile (Knights.) Drawing cards or revealing cards from your own or your opponents' decks is information providing, and should place a stop point. "Look through your discard pile" actions are information-providing.

A well-implemented undo can make up for a ton of misclick-creating UI problems that users are almost certain to complain about, no matter how good your design!

4. An API for developers

Ok, this might sound like pie-in-the-sky, but hear me out. I'm a software developer for a living, so I know that developing user interfaces for new features is often the most difficult part of the development process. Often more difficult that the feature itself. However, exposing some of the internals for tweaking by other developers is relatively easy. If you're using any sort of internal scripting language, it would be great to expose that for hobbyists. Failing that, allowing some sort of plugin system would be great. Here are some things that I would love to be able to experiment with:

-- creating custom bots, both for pre-constructed and random kingdoms
-- a "bot league" where bot matches could be set up (and play something like 100 games against each other almost instantly for a good statistical sample.)
-- custom kingdom creation rules
-- custom campaign creation, including bot setup, starting conditions and rule variants like MF. MF's campaigns seriously lack imagination and I'm guessing a lot of users could do better.
-- custom kingdom setup rules (my IRL group plays with 4 Provinces/Colonies per player for up to 6 players.)
-- custom hybrid cards

That last one is a bit tricky. Note that I didn't just say custom cards. Some users have asked for the ability to create user-designed cards, but that opens too many cans of worms. However, the ability to create cards that are simply a variation on existing mechanics, using the already-present code modularly, would be an interesting thing. For example, people have asked, what would a card that did +1 card, +1 action and nothing else cost? $0? $1? Usually skippable, but could be huge in the right Kingdom. What about cantrip-money that came with two Coppers? What about a vanilla terminal $3 +buy?

Sure, none of that is "real Dominion" but just look at the incredible amount of discussion this game has created in this forum. The puzzle section has some truly astounding stuff in it that will never happen in a real game, but what if someone turned some of those puzzles into campaign stages that were actually playable (with achievements; perhaps even mandatory ones, making the puzzle an integral part of the gameplay!) The variant card forum is interesting, as it usually produces dramatically overpowered (and sometimes underpowered) cards, but the ability to playtest those online would be great.

Expose an API, and it allows for an explosion of creativity among the developer-player community. I'm not sure how bit that community is, but I think it's worth considering.
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JW

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #294 on: December 01, 2016, 12:26:39 pm »
0

I'm guessing that a lot of these are already taken care of, but I'll list them for the sake of completeness:

1. Always make the entire card name in your hand readable. The number of times I've had a big hand in MF and have had to identify my hand by the top-left corner of the card art is silly. I assume this was done on day one of the new client.

SCSN's Making More Fun mod had an alternative (and much better!) hand layout when you have a large number of uniques in hand that made them all readable. See below.

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #295 on: December 01, 2016, 12:32:49 pm »
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4. An API for developers
...
-- custom hybrid cards

This would be an interesting feature but I sort of can't imagine it being possible unless they were to limit the cards to only vanilla effects.  All the logic behind resolving an action card's effects, how to count a weird VP action card (think Distant Lands), how new mechanics/rules come out with each set, etc. would be very hard to generalize and expose for custom creation.  At least I would think so.

And then, if they were only limited to vanilla effects, they might not even need any sort of API to be created.  I would imagine they could be made from the front end as a create-your-own-card feature or something.

Then again, I have no idea how Stef and SCSN are implementing it, and I haven't ever even really thought about programatically implementing Dominion.  Maybe it's not as complicated as I imagine?
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JThorne

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #296 on: December 01, 2016, 02:21:10 pm »
+3

Quote
And then, if they were only limited to vanilla effects, they might not even need any sort of API to be created.  I would imagine they could be made from the front end as a create-your-own-card feature or something.

Yeah, as a developer, I can tell you that creating a user-interface for something like that would be an unspeakable nightmare. However, exposing an API for functions that probably already exist in the code is relatively simple, which is why I suggested it that way. Honestly, the build-a-card functionality is last on my list for a reason; it's arguably the least interesting suggestion. But the bots/campaigns possibility is a strong one.

In fact, they might even consider releasing an API and asking for user-submissions for future updates, then actually release versions with official campaigns and other content that were entirely user-created. A bit of licensing IP paperwork and you're all set, and it could save the developers the ton of time and effort it would take to create content.

Part of the reason that I bring up these ideas is because an on-line-centric implementation with matchmaking can be extraordinarily intimidating for most players who don't see themselves becoming top-level Dominion experts. I enjoy a lot of games, and I play Dominion well, but probably not at a super-high level. I personally enjoy the MF campaigns and am still working my way through them, usually beating everything on the first try, but occasionally getting stuck having to try one five or six times.

I'm reminded of some of the on-line videogames I've played, particularly team shooters. I've enjoyed the single-player campaigns, and I've enjoyed playing with friends, but in several games I've thought I was reasonably OK at the game and jumped into some random on-line games and absolutely had my head handed to me (angering randomly assigned teammates in the process.) Good single-player or circle-of-friends play can keep players engaged with the game and enthusiastic about it. Jumping into the matchmaking pool and repeatedly getting destroyed by really skilled on-line players is alienating, and Dominion is too good a game to suffer from a syndrome like that.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #297 on: December 08, 2016, 03:55:52 pm »
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As I long time ago though about suggestions for MF how to improve UI. What about following one to make playing it fast and mistake free?

Main tool: Buttons above and below cards. If card has optional trash clause then you trash cards by clicking on button trash above the card. If you click on card itself it means that you are done with previous card and play selected card. That would avoid most trashing by accident. Similar with discard, it would speed up hamlet, you click on button above card to get action, below card to get buy by discarding these and likely on a next hamlet otherwise.

Second feature would be always button. Mainly scrying pools and spy,oracle... engine games would be faster if player could click on additional button, to keep card on top of other player's deck for all future plays until end of turn. For reactions one could select to always defend versus that card until end of turn or check a checkbox to always reveal moat until end of game.

Third in any order interface. Most times you don't care how are some cards ordered. With cartographer it would show cards with button above to discard, then you would drag cards to change order and then hit button done to put them back. So in common case simply hitting done would return them in same order as before. Avoiding cases when it doesn't matter as all cards are same would be nice.

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #298 on: December 09, 2016, 06:39:20 pm »
0


Part of the reason that I bring up these ideas is because an on-line-centric implementation with matchmaking can be extraordinarily intimidating for most players who don't see themselves becoming top-level Dominion experts. I enjoy a lot of games, and I play Dominion well, but probably not at a super-high level. I personally enjoy the MF campaigns and am still working my way through them, usually beating everything on the first try, but occasionally getting stuck having to try one five or six times.

I'm reminded of some of the on-line videogames I've played, particularly team shooters. I've enjoyed the single-player campaigns, and I've enjoyed playing with friends, but in several games I've thought I was reasonably OK at the game and jumped into some random on-line games and absolutely had my head handed to me (angering randomly assigned teammates in the process.) Good single-player or circle-of-friends play can keep players engaged with the game and enthusiastic about it. Jumping into the matchmaking pool and repeatedly getting destroyed by really skilled on-line players is alienating, and Dominion is too good a game to suffer from a syndrome like that.
This! I really hope ShIT considers a great Solo Mode as vital as the needs of the Hardcore Community for Online Play.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #299 on: December 10, 2016, 09:41:45 am »
0

Yes.  There really needs to be a campaign mode.
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