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[silverspawn]

Sorry I've been murky,  phone posting. Totaled my car on Tuesday and so having to deal with that shit a lot. Will be posting more soon I promise. Also vote: teamlyle

above you see chairs only post that is longer than one line.

Admittedly it includes a good reason not to have long posts. Even so, he should probably step things up.

[faust]

faust is a suspect. As is the Seprix wagon, i.e. Cron, JReggie, and fontisian. We should probably lynch among those.

How am I a suspect again?

[silverspawn]

- You opposed the wagon at first and jumped on it late and very controlled, hence don't get the same amount of towncred that most others get

- same reasons I pushed you yesterday

- voting for me now is ooc for town!you, who would know better.

[faust]

- You opposed the wagon at first and jumped on it late and very controlled, hence don't get the same amount of towncred that most others get

This is just misrepresentation. See my earlier response to Seprix.

- same reasons I pushed you yesterday

Which I already responded to then.

- voting for me now is ooc for town!you, who would know better.

Stupid OMGUS argument.

[J Reggie]

I shall start leading now.

Seprix is off the table for today.

faust is a suspect. As is the Seprix wagon, i.e. Cron, JReggie, and fontisian. We should probably lynch among those.

"One of my partners was lynched already. Let's kill everyone who suspected my other partner. "

[faust]

Yeah, I don't really see why the Seprix wagon would be suspicious (other than general off-wagon reasoning). Cron, J Reggie and fontisian are all among my townier reads.

[faust]

Jan and Cellovix have been at each other's throats for most of D1. I would say this makes Cellovix somewhat townier, but then I don't have a lot of meta on those two.

[J Reggie]

vote: ss seems wiser at the moment. But ss and Faust need to duke it out.

[chairs]

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

Sorry I can't get into this. My role is meh at best.

[faust]

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

Sorry I can't get into this. My role is meh at best.

Why would one say such a thing?

[Cron]

I don't see how Jan flip clear seprix. Also I've seen Jan go hard on a partner before, so Im not clearing cellovix, but I don't think I'd consider him a good lynch today

Fonti is still my higher end town and j Reggie hasn't done anything that would make scum read him yet, so from my perspective I'm fairly certain at least one partner bussed him. Jan was dying, if I was nafia I would've attacked him hard, he was a sinking ship.

Chairs did nothing at this point. I like his recent post though and wouldn't lynch.

[silverspawn]

Stupid OMGUS argument.

Suspecting someone for voting you ≠ OMGUS.

You obviously acknowledged  that the hammer was accidental

vote: Jan
vote: faust
unvote

I don't know.

That must be the derpiest derphammer that has ever been derped.

And as such, it is inconceivable to have come from scum. Town!You would know this. Therefore, you're not town.

[silverspawn]

The Jan flip does not clear Seprix. Seprix is towny per-se. The people on his wagon are suspects for having pushed the largest alternative over a confirmed mafia player.

[silverspawn]

Let's look at faust's stances day 1:

first, his reads list pre-claim:

I feel like I need to organize my reads. They are al over the place. Let's see. Town to scum:

JReggie
Seprix
fontisian
cron
teamlyle
Jan

Chairs
iguanaiguana

silverspawn
RoadRunner7671
Cellovix
Haddock

Jan as the lightest town read.

Then the claim comes (not yet formulated). Whom he votes for-- no not Jan, it's RR.

Also, RR, I have to wonder: How did you perform a N0 action if you only read your role PM at the start of D1?

Vote: RR

I have no idea whatsoever what he's doing, but it is certain that he's lying and rolefishing.

Roadrunner, I will not vote somewhere else unless you full claim. Not saying that I will if you do, but at least there is a nonzero chance.

If this backfires... Well, we'll find out then, but I'm pretty sure RR is just an IC now?

I'm pretty sure he's not. Weren't you willing to vote for him earlier? What the heck changed?

So far, I also don't get the mechanical reason for RR to be able to perform an action N0. That is very unusual here, and I don't see a compelling case for a Rolecop to have that ability.

He did his best to throw suspicion at RR.

But that is not even the point. This is worse:

I cannot help but feel that Seprix's treatment of the RR situation is pretty scummy.

Not scummy.  Just wrong.
Obviously lynching conf!town is bad. 

But in the hypothetical situation where we can't decide which of RR and Jan to lynch (and I really think we have to lynch one of them today), Reggie's reasoning is as good as any. 

PPE 3.

It is scummy. He changes his view as soon as he learns that RR saw that Jan has a redirective power. If Seprix is Jan's partner, he knows this information to be correct, so he knows RR isn't just shitting around. Form then on, he treats RR as conf!town.

You know what? Vote: Seprix

After RR claimed (according to faust, nothing had to be added), he decided to push Seprix instead. Obviously, it's in his interest now to pretend now as if pushing Seprix was not scummy.

He was the alternative to a scum wagon. Of course being on that is scummy.

In my defense, I did not know the information RR revealed would be so strikingly great for town.

And how did this influence your read on RR, exactly?

It would have been much better for RR to not say anything at all of course. And (I think it was your argument?) was somewhat convincing, but we have a chance to confirm once and for all whether RR's claim is legitimate or not. I think this is so important for D1.

Well, lynching RR also confirms whether his claim is legitimate. And you did not argue that we should lynch Jan because it provides information about RR, you argued that we should lynch him because RR is "basically an IC".

At #637 he decides to back off:

Lynching RR because you don't believe him sucks. Lynch Jan first. Then lynch me if I lied.

It's not usually better this way around, or every scum ever could simply take a townie with them before they are lynched.

That said, I don't think I want to lynch you today.

Oh, I had not even seen this:

Oh and faust, you do have something of a point, but voting Seprix is still insane.  Your entire argument there rests on Jan being scum anyway...

Well one of RR and Jan is scum for sure.

Scummy because it is not true. It was absolutely not obvious that one of them was scum. It could have easily been Jan with a town redirection role (again, rare, not that rare) and RR with a genuinely "guilty" result.

But as scum you'd have known that one of them is scum.

I guess we're lynching Seprix then.

nice try.

And here begins his flip:

I can manipulate myself, but it doesn't protect against factional abilities.

Alright. That seems kinda arbitrary. Oh well.

I'd vote Jan now, but let's hear from him first.

If that is not late and controlled, then what is?

I may be OMGUSing a bit, but this just reads super-fake.

Unrelated but a red flag. It probably sounded genuine, since it was genuine. scum is more likely to say that it didn't.

and this is L-1:

Thus, it is time to Vote: Jan.

I would also point out that his reaction didn't feel genuine and that I cannot begin to understand why he, as town, would choose to reveal his Future Sight ability.

So yes. You are very much a suspect. Probably the prime suspect.

[Seprix]

That's a really convincing case on Faust. I'll give him a quick read over anyways, but that's really bad for Faust if all of those are truly in context. Worse than I suspected, even. I'm going to reread SS and then some of the newer players, since I don't have much of a read on them, due to a lack of a meta to refer to.

[faust]

Stupid OMGUS argument.

Suspecting someone for voting you ≠ OMGUS.

You obviously acknowledged  that the hammer was accidental

vote: Jan
vote: faust
unvote

I don't know.

That must be the derpiest derphammer that has ever been derped.

And as such, it is inconceivable to have come from scum. Town!You would know this. Therefore, you're not town.

Ah sure. It is impossible for some reason for scum to hammer accidentally.

And "town!you would know better" is literally "oh my god you suck".

[Seprix]

Not to mention, Teamyle is town. I can confirm this later on in the day. I have a lot of things to say as well, but I have to debate whether I should be saying them now or waiting until tomorrow.

[faust]

A biased reread appeared.

Then the claim comes (not yet formulated). Whom he votes for-- no not Jan, it's RR.

Well sure. There was a contradiction in his claim. What would you have done? Oh wait, I know: Sat back and refused to take a stance:

lets have him fullclaim, and then see. Come and see.

Because obviously that's the towny thing to do 
I back off as soon as he fulclaims, because the claim was genuine. As scum, I would know that the claim will be genuine. So what exactly did scum!me gain from pushing RR?

He was the alternative to a scum wagon. Of course being on that is scummy.

This is just an example of trying to apply some "general wisdom" when it very clearly cannot be applied. Jan was going down. If I jumped the wagon at that point, you would have found me scummy too. So it's a situation where you always find me scummy, and that's a sign that your evaluation might be wrong.

Plus, being on the Seprix is only even scummy in "being an alternative to a scum wagon" if you assume that Seprix is town. Which you know how exactly?

At #637 he decides to back off:

I thought I had backed off when I unvoted. And voted for somebody else. ut apparently saying "I don't want to lynch you" is required in orded to truly back off.

Scummy because it is not true. It was absolutely not obvious that one of them was scum. It could have easily been Jan with a town redirection role (again, rare, not that rare) and RR with a genuinely "guilty" result.

There' a thing called Occam's razor. You should try it some time. Yes I am guilty of using "for sure" when I should not have.

I guess we're lynching Seprix then.

nice try.

I make joke.

And here begins his flip:

I can manipulate myself, but it doesn't protect against factional abilities.

Alright. That seems kinda arbitrary. Oh well.

I'd vote Jan now, but let's hear from him first.

If that is not late and controlled, then what is?

Yes, here begins "my flip". After RR answered a question that I asked. To which, if you assume I am scum, I would already know the answer to. And it is an answer that would in that scenario make me vote for my partner. Then why even ask? Why take this detour which I know would only end up landing me on Jan again? Going off him and then back on after this answer is a town tell and not a scum tell.

Unrelated but a red flag. It probably sounded genuine, since it was genuine. scum is more likely to say that it didn't.

And why is that? I don't believe that this is true.

This is not much of a case. Except if you call my misuse of "for sure" a case already.

[faust]

Sorry about not proofreading. If there's something left unclear, please say so.

[faust]

That's a really convincing case on Faust. I'll give him a quick read over anyways, but that's really bad for Faust if all of those are truly in context. Worse than I suspected, even. I'm going to reread SS and then some of the newer players, since I don't have much of a read on them, due to a lack of a meta to refer to.

What, exactly, is convincing to you?

[silverspawn]

Ah sure. It is impossible for some reason for scum to hammer accidentally.

Come on! I bet that is literally never happened on this forum. And how often did we have town hammering accidentally? A bunch of times since I started playing.

plus if I hammered accidentally, why would you even vote for me? Would that not make me null?

[silverspawn]

as far as I remember from the 4 times I was scum before this game, you are usually hyper aware of how much votes are on a partner if he's close to a lynch.

[silverspawn]

And "town!you would know better" is literally "oh my god you suck".

That's like the opposite of "oh my god you suck".

[silverspawn]

being on the Seprix is only even scummy in "being an alternative to a scum wagon" if you assume that Seprix is town. Which you know how exactly?

High a priori chance mixed with towny play.

There' a thing called Occam's razor. You should try it some time. Yes I am guilty of using "for sure" when I should not have.

If being scum doubles the chance of receiving a redirecting role, then Jan was still less likely scum than town, due to the a priori chance of drawing town, if the claim was true. If it triples the chance it might have been fifty/fifty. Occam's razor does not apply.

[fontisian]

Silver, are you certain faust would so adamantly oppose the Jan wagon as scum?