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[faust]

Faust, how do you explain that you claimed to have roleblocked Haddock and that didn't stop any kills?

What do you believe happened there?

Well, I did say that I had a power that can do good stuff. It might very well have tipped off scum. Frankly, I hoped they would just kill me, because then hopefully someone would still have returned to life. It seems they took the other road. I don't think this is as unlikely as you make it out to be given that I softclaimed.

There's something else I just thought about: Our theory is that Seprix was in some form a Motivator, right? Because that goes with your role. If this is true, then  couldn't actually block kills probably. Well. The OP specifically mentions that people can be resurrected in this game, but my role seems to be the only instance of this.

Also, you claimed Claire/cheerleader for Haddock before he fakeclaimed it for himself. Scummy as all get out. Why would you do that as town?

Timing-wise, I made that claim after a night during which it already was clear that Haddock would need to claim something the following day. So if I was scum with him, I would just have given him heads up on what to claim during the night... there would be no clumsy coaching during the day necessary.

As far why I did it: Well, it was on my mind, I was somewhat excited that (I thought) I figured out the situation. There was no real downside. I mean, why would I not do it? To not give Haddock a fakeclaim, you might argue... but I couldn't actually have given him a fakeclaim. Either he was given Claire Benett as a fakeclaim at game start, in which case he would have claimed it no matter what, or he wasn't, in which case he couldn't have claimed it because it was very reasonable to assume that the real Claire was still out there.

[iguanaiguana]

How was scum supposed to know how to stop you - Are you suggesting that they blocked you from traveling to the past at all?

Can you give me a full description of what you did on each night and what you think it all achieved?

I'm not convinced that your role was the only instance of a player who could have brought other players back from the dead. Enough people died without full claiming that it is very possible that another dead town, or even scum, was able to do that.

[Cellovix]

Finally have some time to sit down at a computer without getting nagged at.

That is to say:

Answer me this though, Iguana - what sparked the change in play from you? You've been a lot more coherent and analytical the last day or two relative to your early game.  I figured you were kind of just derp town early on, but you've shown flashes of insight and ability that tells me I likely underestimated you quite a bit.  No offense intended at all.  Is it just a situation where we were approaching end game and you needed to take it more seriously?  Not today, but the last game day or two.

I've gotten into some trouble with my wife for spending too much time trying to solve these games and not paying enough attention to real life. So my compromise where I got to keep playing was that I only analyze situations when it's really needed to help my faction win. Usually that translates into a derp town ---> analytical style of play as the days go on and the game gets a bit more serious.

I've also just found that forming strong reads on day one is often detrimental because usually you're going to be wrong and if you get something wrong stuck in your head, it can be hard to question it later on.

I understand this completely.  I've had to make some compromises with my better half about the game as well, mostly involving not playing on my phone, and only playing in longer game phases that don't require a ton of time investment.

[faust]

How was scum supposed to know how to stop you - Are you suggesting that they blocked you from traveling to the past at all?

Can you give me a full description of what you did on each night and what you think it all achieved?

Basically, yes.

Here's what I suppose happened:

N1 - I did nothing.
N2 - I was vanillaised and thus did nothing.
N3 - I travelled to N2, blocking Haddock. I assume I was roleblocked (in N3), thus preventing my time-travelling from happening. There are other options, like Haddock being Strongman, but this one seems the most likely.
N4 - I did nothing.
N5 - I travelled to N4, blocking Cellovix. Either Cellovix is town or Haddock performed the kill or I got roleblocked still.

[faust]

It's too bad that Haddock flipped with such a non-telling role description. I don't like it when RMMs do that. If we knew what power he had, it would be a lot easier to figure this out.

[Cellovix]

Day One Iguana Analysis:

Overall impression so far:

Teamlyle is no fool. All this talk of him derp clearing is overblown.

Faust argument on Cellovix is weakish. Plus, I like ducks. My first word was duck. So D1 pass for Cellovix.

Unless later on I feel like lynching him.

It's 4PM. Good night everyone.

Initial reaction to this post was +Town, because I don't see scum giving a D1 pass to someone they know is town. But the hedge on it makes it pretty null, and obviously a joke.

Vote: Roadrunner

Wagons!

This is the first instance of Wagons!, and the carefree attitude that has had me town reading Iguana all game. Iguana, can you talk to me about Wagons! ? Is this something you've done before? If not, what was your thought process on doing it this game, and what were you trying to accomplish? I guess what I'm asking is if it was a conscious decision to do it to generate reactions, or was it just a spur of the moment thing that you ran with?

Full disclosure, I do not find Roadrunner at all scummy this game, and in fact was town-leaning him when I voted him. But I saw no harm in voting him so early in the game when he was unlikely to be lynched and was curious who else might join the vote. I thought maybe we'd see some scum-tells out of the new players who don't know his meta yet.

It didn't go so well, so I self-voted for fun. Now my games are over and I shall play for real until I don't feel like it anymore.

Happy weekend!

Hm. I like this, I think. Or rather I like the mindset that it had to come from, a genuine attempt to figure out new players by how they react to unfamiliar stimuli.

I read about my character and I am apparently known for duck hunting a certain someone.

So, uh, Vote: Cellovix I guess?

It's the flavorful thing to do.

Going to go research his character to see if this checks out. Let's see. A ctrl+F of duck in http://heroeswiki.com/Daphne_Millbrook has Duck Hunting Janice as a nickname, so checks out I guess.

There is a lot of really awful analysis going around in this game so far.

At least my bad analysis is intentionally bad analysis.

Cite your sources here. What do you consider to be awful analysis, and why?

Super don't feel like it at this time.

I originally got pretty frustrated with Iguana about this, but decided it almost certainly came from town. I think he'd have appeased me here if he were scum and put forth a token effort rather than just blow it off. Iguana - would you mind answering this now? What analysis were you considering bad at the time you made that post?

I resent this. I'd say we get on just fine most games.

Oh I think we're always perfectly amicable. But we do disagree reasonably often, wouldn't you say? (Maybe you disagree )

I disagree with everyone, always. Lynch me if you dare. I'm a town.

Zero self-preservation. So town. I'd be more skeptical of this thing when someone is facing actual pressure, as it could be a WiFOM gambit, but Iguana was under no real pressure here, and I see no agenda or scum motivation to antagonize.

Vote: Roadrunner

I actually don't like the naked vote here, though - Iguana can you talk about what you were thinking at the time? Especially given this came on the heels of you saying you didn't find RR scummy this game and just voted him to see what people would do.

Vote: Fontisian

Wagons!

I'm just voting for the scummiest person. I put wagons at the end only to annoy you.

Kind of opportunistic given hadn't mentioned Fontisian at all up to this point, but it's a continuation of the "deliberately provoking town" thing that I don't really think he does as scum. (Town in this case since Faust/Iguana are not scum togther because....duh)

silver can you explain your iguana vote a bit? Now that faust has pointed it out it's really sticking in my craw. I mean, you guys have a minor disagreement about nothing particularly game-related, then he townreads you and then you vote him. What's going on there?

I'm a town and he's probably some weird role like "all the scum at once" because bananas.

Really weird interaction here. Involves all three of Iguana/Faust/Haddock (and Silver, but he's irrelevant beyond being known town).

Haddock's defending Iguana... kind of, while the interaction was pointed out to him by Faust, and Iguana kind of inserts an interjection.

Not sure if I can pull anything absolute out of this post.

Explaining now would be cool.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irony

alright whatever

Vote: Roadrunner

Wagons!

I don't like it though.

I'm not his scum partner though, I'm a town.

I hated this post at first glance, but here's the thing: Iguana is worried about being linked to RR as his scumbuddy in this post. When as scum he'd know RR is town.

Yes, it's fakeable. No, I don't think Iguana is the type to fake that kind of nuance.

You can just kill me, but kill Seprix tomorrow for his shitshow push here.

Seems odd, why don't we just kill Seprix today?

Not very efficient I'd say.

I don't like this, though. I guess there's an argument he wouldn't be so blatant though given his buddy would have been outed? Eh.

why should you be prime targets? We are playing RMM. There's a good chance that every player has a power role.

Well, often in RMM there's one vanilla townie.

Is this a soft claim!?

Don't like Iguana jumping on this, though. 

why should you be prime targets? We are playing RMM. There's a good chance that every player has a power role.

Well, often in RMM there's one vanilla townie.

Is this a soft claim!?

Kinda, not really. I'm guessing based on a little information I indirectly have that there is one in this game. It's not that big a deal.

oh dude I was just joking, I didn't want you to say anything : /

Ergh.  I can read this as being genuine, or trying to play it off s a joke. 

I also really want to soft claim tho becuase I've got this really funny meme idea....

well not that funny.

Iguana, can you talk about what you would have soft claimed here? 

Swear words tend to make me unvote

You should have more conviction. What if you're right! Wouldn't that be neat?

+ I'm curious too and kinda want to hammer.

Leaning town on this, as he's basically goading RR into staying on Jan.

Iguanaiguana and I will probably both vote Jan...

Let's do it.

Vote: Jan

Grumpy McSwearyscum needs to die.

Jan lynch was inevitable, and the late position on wagon is plausible bussing, especially given I think it's the first time he stated anything resembling conviction about a read this game.  But it's mitigated by the way he was prodding RR into voting Jan, and I like the tone. I think. I might just be confirmation biasing at this point because Iguana has been very town.

Roadrunner, do something heroic for once and hammer the scum! Sacrifice yourself!!!!

I BELIEVE IN YOU

Eh. Probably null as I suspect he'd do this kind of thing as either alignment.

Vote Count 1.final

Roadrunner7671(1): chairs
Jan(7): Cellovix, Seprix, Haddock, teamlyle, iguanaiguana, faust, silverspawn
Cellovix(1): Jan
Seprix(3): fontisian, Cron, J Reggie

Not Voting(1): Roadrunner7671

With 13 alive it took 7 to lynch.

End of D1 vote count.

Both Faust and Iguana are in prime late wagon bussing spots, but I like Iguana's vote more, as the wagons were 4/4 split between Jan/Seprix at the time when he transitioned over, prodding RR to join him.

Thoughts:

After D1, I'm pretty sure Iguana is town. He shows no fear, no sense of self preservation.  Intentionally antagonizing people he would know are town, being super carefree, and doing deliberately scummy things.  I hate losing to that kind of thing, though, so am obviously going to continue my re-read and analysis.  His interactions with Jan and Haddock were inconclusive, but  his own play independent of theirs was solidly town I think.

Taking a break, then starting in on D2.

[Cellovix]

Trying to multi-quote and format on this forum while cycling back between start of game and end of game is a miserable experience though.  There's not a multi-quote feature right? Where I can just easily click my way through?

[faust]

Cellovix: Whom are you posting this for?

There is no multi-quote feature, sadly.

[Cellovix]

No one in particular.   

Myself maybe? I kind of talk out loud when I read through the game and do this kind of analysis.  Where I comment on things I see, and then ask people questions if what I see requires clarification, if that makes sense.

One of you two already knows who the scum is between you.  The other has a choice to make, and until I'm sure which one is which, I don't see a point in directly casing the other to them.

Like, yes, I'm currently leaning towards you being scum, and Iguana being town.  I want you to be town, because you've frankly showed more effort and analysis this game, but Iguana has just been so town.

If you're actually town and he's scum, you're going to need to sell me on that fact - because if you objectively read my posts this game in isolation you're going to come away (reluctantly) sure that I'm town.  I say reluctant because you've tunneled on me since effectively my first post of the game, and it's human nature to want to be correct.

The gloves are off for me now. You'll see reading through that I was not as active, not as high energy as I could have been.  I have a tendency to get shot N1 in upwards of 75% of the games I play, so I roll doctor, even a nerfed variation, and decide to take advantage of the fact that this is a completely new meta to me where know one knows me, and try to come across as vaguely competent, but unthreatening.

That's part of why I reacted so strongly to Reggie's use of that word - it insinuated a certain kind of mindset that he was evaluating players in a way that I thought scum would, rather than town.

But there's no more night kill to dodge. Just one more day of analysis and making the correct decision, and I have never had a game as town where I feel I lost because I didn't put in enough effort.  That won't change this game. Hopefully!

[faust]

Let's do the Cellovix reread. I hope he's scummy, because otherwise I get lynched and that wouldn't be good.

- asks if scum usually have daychat here. Asking for that kind of stuff might be towny, or scum willing to appear towny, but he's not asking for this particular game, so there's nothing really.
- there's generally lots of questions, which is mostly a playstyle thing I believe.
- his reaction to teamlyle's slip is just so much the standard way for scum to respond.
- he doesn't want to massclaim. Scum doesn't want to massclaim, is what I'm saying. Though there are those who don't like high-risk-high-reward strategies as town.
- talking about how fontisian/RR isn't scum/scum. Which is a really inconsequential thing to point out, but hey, in the end you an say "look, I was right".
- he goes after lurkers. That is an easy thing to fall back onto. I mean lurker lynches are fine, but yo should go for them until late D1.
- then he attacks Jan, for being inactive apart from flavor comments. And that's an easy enough thing to do because as soon as Jan posts something substantial, you can back off. Also scum is way more focused on how their partners are playing.
-this:

Haddock just had the one post.  Feels more like not being here and less lurking.  Might need prodded or replaced.

Jan and Chairs have been active lurking, hence me voting for both of them at various points.

I don't think there's a significant enough difference between Haddock and chairs at this point. But Cellovix doesn't want to vote for Haddock.
- here comes the uber-scummy post. Jan is under heavy flak due to RR's claim, yet Cellovix says he wants to lynch him not because of the claim, but because Cellovix in his amazing scumhunting capabilities deduced early D1 that Jan is scum. Also encourages people to reread the Cellovix/Jan stuff (which, he would hope, would convince people of his towniness). I find it hard to see this coming from town.
- this is followed by another post prompting people to look at Cello/Jan.

This is D1.

- he votes for Haddock without a reason... which is weird given that he usually does more explaining, but not necessarily scummy!weird.
- now there comes some clash between Cellovix and Haddock. Cellovix seems very intent on creating interactions with scum, and these feel different than the interactions he has with other players I think.

If Haddock is scum, JReggie is almost certainly scum, because it'd mean Haddock was trying to save one of his easiest mislynches.

Woah, look at that mislynch setup.
- shortly before the day ends, Cellovix switches his vote. Convenient.
- end of D2 is mostly irrelevant for scum!Cellovix, because that means that all wagons are on town.

This was D2. Taking a break now.

[faust]

Great even more "I played intentionally scummier than I could have" bullshit.

[faust]

because if you objectively read my posts this game in isolation you're going to come away (reluctantly) sure that I'm town.

I mean, I would want you to be town. I'd have a better shot at convicing you than iguana I think. But it's just not there.

[faust]

Hrum. There could still plausibly be a Serial Killer.... in which case, uh, I'm the only town left. That can't be good.

Evidence for this scenario is mainly that there were these two nightkills, one of which is apparently not accounted for by the scum team, per Haddock's confusion. But the only possible town role to do kills would be silver I think; and silver wanted to killer to claim, so no.

The only thing I can plausibly do if this is the case is vote No Lynch, right? Hope that the scums shoot each other?

I have no idea how to evaluate the likelihood of this vs only one scum.

[faust]

Now I kinda regret that I have no shot of my power left. If I had, I could plausibly block a nightkill in N5 and then make for a better scenario tomorrow.

[faust]

Welp. I have decided that my chances of winning are too low even if there are 2 scum left. So let's roll the dice!

Vote: Cellovix

[Cellovix]

What. 

Get your vote off of there, I haven't even finished my re-read of Iguana, let alone you. He hasn't posted his own re-read, and you stopped your read on me at day two.

[Cellovix]

If you are town, you are straight up throwing the game.

It's fine to think I'm scum - it is not fine to place a vote when I haven't finished my analysis, Iguana hasn't posted any of his, and you haven't finished your own even.

I struggle to see any possible way you do this as town, when there is so much work and discussion to be had yet.

[faust]

I have read enough to arrive at a point where I don't think anything you can say will sway me in a direction of voting iguana.

Sorry if you're town, but that's how it is.

[faust]

I also struggle to see why I should wait on your analysis to be finished for my vote. The only analysis I need to finish is mine own. And for all intents and purposes, it is done. I could read your D3-D5, but I think I would have remembered had you done something uber-towny there, and what I remember (like deciding the Haddock/J Reggie duel in scum's favor) is scummy.

[faust]

Now I can just wait for iguana to either take his revenge on me or clear himself as town.

[Cellovix]

I decided the Haddock/Reggie duel in scum's favor because of your own fucking claim.  Are you forgetting that I was voting for him, and then you come in and mechanically clear him, forcing me to re-evaluate?

You're being lazy, you're repeatedly ignoring context, and you're twisting things to seem scummy when they are not.  (Spoiler, I was in the process of responding to your case against me when you voted, I'll still post it, but it seems it'll effectively just be for Iguana, and hope that he is town)

[Cellovix]

It's like you came into today knowing you had already lost, and are just going through the motions out of respect for the rest of your team.

[Cellovix]

1) I am the doctor.  Of course I don't want to mass claim on day one. 

2) Talking about Fontisian and RR not being scum ignores the context - someone (Cron, I think?) had literally just prior to that been talking about how RR flipping scum would not clear Fontisian.  I talked about it, saying that I didn't think that was scum/scum, because of the way he reacted to her attack.

3) I went after lurkers to get them to post, and play the game.  You're ignoring the progression of thought I had, where I looked at the vote count/playerlist, saw Chairs was in the game, had no idea who Chairs was, went back to look at his posts, and then voted him.  He came in and said his car was totaled, so I switched to another lurker who was actively lurking - Jan's posts to that point had almost exclusively been about flavor, so I voted him while pressuring him to provide actual content.

4) Of course I would rather lynch people based on behavior rather than on claim.  Especially in a game advertised as Role Madness, and having no baseline for what that actually means, because my own role is relatively simple, behavior is the only thing that really matters on day one. You're trying to frame the fact that I thought scum was, well, behaviorally scum, in a negative light.

People were pushing RR, people were pushing Seprix, I came back after being away, and reiterated who I wanted to lynch, while talking to people who were not on the Jan wagon and having them look at how Jan behaved.

5) You're ignoring the context of the Haddock vote - I'd just spent some time getting some town reads off the Jan interactions and narrowing down who I thought scum could reside in.  I think I had it like, Haddock, Iguana, and one of You or Silver, and decided Haddock was who I wanted to pressure most in that group as he hadn't participated much.

6) It's hardly "mislynch setup" - they hadn't claimed yet at that point I don't think, Haddock had just vaguely defended JReggie. I had trouble seeing scum to that to town, because if it was scum/town, it's denying a critical mislynch for him.  The claim happened later and mitigated those circumstances.

7) I switched my vote because people were effectively saying Reggie and Haddock were off the table for the day. You're again ignoring context and trying to twist things to appear scummy, when they are not.  You're ignoring that I had repeatedly tried to engage with Fontisian, and she had refused to do so.  You're ignoring that I thought Iguana was town, and that I thought you were town (or at least wanted you to be town, because you were actually playing the game). 

I don't actually think you or Iguana were even wagons when I had to leave, actually, but I'll have to go back and look - I missed the end of day due to real life things (which has been an unfortunately recurring theme this game).

I did not play "scummier", I simply wasn't insanely high effort.  I was still transparent with my thought process and reads, still scum hunted almost constantly, and still focused on driving the game forwards and trying to win.  I just didn't spam the thread non-stop in an attempt to draw the NK away from likely meta targets for it, because, role.

9) It's there. Because I'm town, and have been obviously town.  Pretty sure you are literally the only person (other than Jan) who has even expressed suspicion on me this game, and you quickly drop it and move elsewhere after testing the waters for your mislynch.  Because yes, that's quite obviously what it was, at this point.  This attack, this ignoring of context, this twisting of reality is not something that comes from you as town.

You are blatantly trying to use reverse psychology on Iguana, because it's the only path you have to victory.  Not killing him in order to set up the WiFOM today, and bemoaning how I'd have been so much easier to convince of your towniness.

[Cellovix]

This just annoys me to no end, even if you're scum it annoys me.  I don't get to do endgames very often, and I don't get to take my time and do thorough analysis and figure things out very often.  You've robbed me of that because it effectively is a scum claim from you (to me, if nothing else), and the entire reason I play mafia is to figure out who the scum are and lynch them. 

[faust]

I did not play "scummier", I simply wasn't insanely high effort.  I was still transparent with my thought process and reads, still scum hunted almost constantly, and still focused on driving the game forwards and trying to win.  I just didn't spam the thread non-stop in an attempt to draw the NK away from likely meta targets for it, because, role.

But... you did not have a good role!