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[faust]

I find the implication that a deaf doctor is somehow worse than a regular one offensive.

I have more to say, about the claim and the game, later today, after work.

[iguanaiguana]

Going to claim, since no reason not to at this point. I can use my ability tonight, but it can't impact the game in any way that I can imagine, barring multiple revivals.

I am Emma, the Deaf Doctor.  My ability name is Treat, and I can target a player, protecting them from one kill.  I cannot use my ability on consecutive nights.

Night One: I ended up targeting Silver.  I thought about picking Reggie after the claim and Jan's flip, but I figured he'd be redirecting away from himself, and tried to next-level scum and think of who they'd kill if they avoided him.  Silver was the whole reason I came over to play in this game, as I'm trying to play one game in every community represented in the Mafia Championship series.  (I'm a lot more experienced than I tried to make it seem early on, because I rolled a strong power role and wanted to avoid getting SPK'd), and given he performed well in his qualifying game and made the finals he seemed like a likely SPK on N1 if they were avoiding Reggie.

Night Two: I could not use my ability.

Night Three: I missed end of day, and the night action deadline, unfortunately.  I'm not sure who I'd have targeted there, possibly Silver again, but that might be wishful thinking given I know he died. Sorry!

Night Four: I targeted EFHW.  I decided she was the least likely to be scum with Haddock, and was more likely to produce useful analysis over Lyle or Iguana if alive, given the high level of effort she'd put into posting in the neighbor QuickTopic. There was also her unclaimed role that she targeted Faust with on Night Two, which could have been useful or provided clarity.

Night Five: I could not use my ability

You have only one ability?

[iguanaiguana]

... Silver... seemed like a likely SPK on N1...

Little did you know that here on these forums, we always kill Faust on N1 when we have nothing better to do, so that we can always figure out when he's scum.

(Sorry Faust, it's a joke; I know you hate this meta.)

[Cellovix]

Yeah, I only have one ability.  It came up after Cron's claim, back in the post #1060 range, if you want to look at that discussion.

I can sympathize with Faust completely on that Meta. It's part of why I've started this thing where I'm playing on a ton of different sites.  But that's not especially relevant to this game I don't think.

I do plan to do a complete re-read and try to keep an open mind, but it's not exactly a secret I currently think Faust is scum, heh.

Answer me this though, Iguana - what sparked the change in play from you? You've been a lot more coherent and analytical the last day or two relative to your early game.  I figured you were kind of just derp town early on, but you've shown flashes of insight and ability that tells me I likely underestimated you quite a bit.  No offense intended at all.  Is it just a situation where we were approaching end game and you needed to take it more seriously?  Not today, but the last game day or two.

[Cellovix]

I find the implication that a deaf doctor is somehow worse than a regular one offensive.

I have more to say, about the claim and the game, later today, after work.

I said something similar when I got the role.  It is obviously strictly for balance reasons and not to insinuate anything, but still read as odd.

[Cellovix]

I'll try to find the time tonight to pour into this, but more likely it'll be on the weekend.

Faust, have you fullclaimed? I know you said you were vanillaized, and then targeted Haddock, but was that the only night you did anything?

[faust]

So here's stuff I want to say. I'll try to split my posts thematically, that makes for easier reading and responding and such.

So let me claim what I haven't yet. My power is 2-shot. You know that I have been vanillaised at the end of N1 and stayed that way until the end of N2. I couldn't perform and action N1 (or so I thought; I guess technically I would have been able to travel back to N0, but that would not have accomplished anything). I did not do anything N2. N3, I targeted Haddock as claimed. I debated targeting on N4, but considering by previous failure to accomplish anything with that I thought it reasonable that scum still had a Roleblocker, and that that might be Haddock, so I did nothing. Then after Haddock's death I tried to block Cellovix (in N4).

[faust]

iguana, could you flavor claim? I think you didn't yet.

[faust]

So Cellovix' claim seems off for me, for several reasons:

- Doctor is not a very strong role; I don't see a game-mechanical necessity to weaken it here. On the other hand, scum!Cellovix might have gotten into trouble had he claimed full Doctor and never successfully saved anyone. Note how conveniently he couldn't target during N2, when the target was arguably the most predictable.
- as far as I can see, all other roles of flavor names with superpowers in the shows had some flavor tie in with that superpower. Emma also has a superpower in the show, but somehow that is not reflected in the claim.

Question for Cellovix: Why did you not target the IC N4?

[faust]

Oh, and I forgot to state this, but I also don't see why Cellovix's role would make a 1-shot Deathproof townie impossible.

[faust]

I'll reread the dead scums for partner interactions, starting with Jan.

Jan interacts a lot with me in particular early on. You can read that for yourselves and figure out if you think it's forced partner interaction. But I think that what follows looks much more like forced partner interaction: This post. I mean, that case on Cellovix rests on nothing. It's just bogus.

Note how in that same post he reads Haddock as town, keeping in a classical 1 town-1 scum pattern if Cello is indeed his partner. He does not mention me or iguana.

Then Jan is gone for a while, in the meantime RR makes his claim. No specific interactions with other players who are still alive following that.

[Cellovix]

Have a couple minutes free:

1) So you tried to retroactively block me on the night Haddock was dead, and yet nothing happened or was changed.  I'll note that I was not notified that I was retroactively roleblocked on N4, but I don't know how that's done on this site. My experience with RB's is that people are told that their action fails, but I know that's handled differently everywhere.

2) Doctor is not a strong role, no, but from a setup design standpoint we did have multiple strong information roles, plus several unclaimed roles that we don't know what they were.  All I can do as to why it was designed this way is shrug because I didn't make the game. I can speculate that there was some synergy where repeated protects on the tracker, or even JReggie with his mass track, or whoever could break the game, and it was ensured that didn't happen. 

I didn't target the IC because frankly I thought EFHW was more useful alive than he was.  She was actually providing analysis and thinking critically, and I thought her interactions with Haddock made her very unlikely to be scum with him. I never even considered protecting Lyle, really - he was a claimed vanilla who was making no impact on the game.

3) It's a small game.  I didn't think it made sense for a deathproof and a doctor to co-exist.  When I consider setup design and try to see if something makes sense, I look at the worst case scenario for the scum team (or town, depending on the role archetype), and see if it is overly harsh for them if it goes really well (or poorly).  With the potential to stop multiple kills, that'd be back breaking for scum, forcing them to generate extra mislynches in an already small game where they'd be hard to come by.  It's similar logic as why I had trouble seeing Reggie as town.  A mass track on top of a tracker, and Lyle/Seprix ICing each other + RR's role seemed like too much information and couldn't possibly be balanced. 

In retrospect I probably should have researched a bunch of the RMM setups on this site, but I didn't have the time or inclination to do so when it wasn't something I was pinning the lynch on one way or the other.

[Cellovix]

I mean. Yes, his push on me is bogus, because I'm town.  I pushed on him for active lurking, and he responded with an over the top OMGUS.

Look at my progression on D1 - I was looking over the playerlist, and decided Chairs, Jan and Haddock hadn't done much. I voted for Chairs, and then he popped back in saying his car was totaled.  I looked at the other two again, saw Haddock simply hadn't been around, while Jan had popped in a few times talking about flavor but doing nothing to advance the game, and pushed on him to provide content.

He had a disproportionate reaction to mild pressure, but trying to spin that as forced partner interaction is false.

[Cellovix]

Back to work with me - may or may not be around this evening, because possible Friday Night plans, but I will be this weekend.

[faust]

Hopefully rereading Haddock will be more fruitful.

This is the first relevant post; he gives some weird read on me that is neither here nor there. That is generally more likely to happen when scum gives a read on town than on themselves. It's also notable (for the future) that he scumreads Jan here.

He defends iguana a bit. Then a bit more. He puts Jan to L-2 (this is just here to give some indication of how he treats his partners). After Jan comes out and says stuff, Haddock gets ready to move off that wagon should the opportunity present itself.

Haddock gives a very mild town read on me. He has a scumread on Cellovix, but says it's only OMGUS. There's a notable moment where iguana puts Haddock to L-2, and Haddock doesn't like it.

End of day stuff on D2 should be enlightening. Haddock goes into it with this preference: Cron > Cellovix > fontisian > faust
I mean, let's face it, that does not look so great for me. Notably iguana doesn't show up in that post, but he had only 1 vote at the time, so meh. If you look at how Haddock treats Cellovix, you will note that it's not dissimilar from how he treated Jan on D1. Scum!Haddock is more a hedgy busser and less a hardcore defender.

Well then he goes on to make the iguana wagon happen. That would be too strong bussing. He goes on to leave his vote on Cellovix for a grand total of 7 minutes, to see if that wagon takes off. I mean. That is some serious distancing attempt. He could leave His vote on Cellovix and iguana would still be the leading wagon, but instead he changes back before going to sleep.

Here's a post in which Haddock is SK hunting me. This says two things: a) I'm not his partner. b) It's reasonable to assume that scum didn't perform the second nightkill.

This is of note:

Did I already mention my silver theory?  I think he is probably responsible for one of the N2 kills.  "Psychotic Dual Personality" sounds a lot like an odd/even night killing ability of some kind.

Further evidence that Haddock didn't actually have 2 kills.

And well, that's it.

PPEs

[faust]

In retrospect I probably should have researched a bunch of the RMM setups on this site

Probably would have made for a better fakeclaim

[faust]

Up next are rereads of Cellovix and iguana, but it'll have to wait some, because rereading is tiresome work.

[iguanaiguana]

Answer me this though, Iguana - what sparked the change in play from you? You've been a lot more coherent and analytical the last day or two relative to your early game.  I figured you were kind of just derp town early on, but you've shown flashes of insight and ability that tells me I likely underestimated you quite a bit.  No offense intended at all.  Is it just a situation where we were approaching end game and you needed to take it more seriously?  Not today, but the last game day or two.

I've gotten into some trouble with my wife for spending too much time trying to solve these games and not paying enough attention to real life. So my compromise where I got to keep playing was that I only analyze situations when it's really needed to help my faction win. Usually that translates into a derp town ---> analytical style of play as the days go on and the game gets a bit more serious.

I've also just found that forming strong reads on day one is often detrimental because usually you're going to be wrong and if you get something wrong stuck in your head, it can be hard to question it later on.

[faust]

So, iguana reread. This is without all the pretty links because well Cellovix should really reread iguana by himself.

- there's a bit where Haddock disagrees with stuff iguana did and says that's normal - iguana doesn't think so. I think that as a scumpair, they'd rather play up that "disagreeing" to stay true to their meta.
- notably little interaction with both Jan and Haddock otherwise, but then again, iguana doesn't really do anything in that period of the game.
- joins the Jan wagon at L-2. That doesn't look too good.
- he votes Haddock twice during D2.
- the first content-y posts he has are about how Neighborizer isn't necessarily a town role. Well true, but also scum wants J Reggie to not be seen as conf!town.
- his claim and the reasoning for it seem rather natural and genuine.
- pushes Haddock on D3, and on D4 some, but then there is some sidetracking. The whole sheep Cellovix thing is not that great. I mean, originally I thought it towny, but at that time I also thought Reggie would flip scum. Since that wasn't the case, it makes quite some more sense for scum to do.
- his post-lynch fullclaim on D5 is rather towny, especially with the reasoning he's given.

Overall more towny stuff than scummy. I think I'll end up voting Cellovix. But let's wait for the reread there, it might bring to light some new stuff.

[faust]

Too bad if it's Cello, because I think I'd have a better chance convincing him of my towniness.

[faust]

1) So you tried to retroactively block me on the night Haddock was dead, and yet nothing happened or was changed.  I'll note that I was not notified that I was retroactively roleblocked on N4, but I don't know how that's done on this site. My experience with RB's is that people are told that their action fails, but I know that's handled differently everywhere.

Forgot to address this. There is usually no notification of having been blocked here.

[iguanaiguana]

iguana, could you flavor claim? I think you didn't yet.

I didn't ever do this. I'm Daphne, the speedster.

She's a blonde chick.

And my one shot commuter isn't called commuter, it's called run away.

[iguanaiguana]

Faust, how do you explain that you claimed to have roleblocked Haddock and that didn't stop any kills?

What do you believe happened there?

Really, that is the main reason I think you must be scum over Cellovix. You made a claim that you said cleared Haddock, and voted J Reggie based on that. But J Reggie was town and Haddock scum. And J Reggie's claim about who people in his neighborhood targeted implies that Haddock DID make all the kills. So the fact that your claimed roleblocking apparently did nothing is highly suspicious. Even if you were redirected, something may happened. And the chance that your roleblock was roleblocked would be, uh, decidedly low.

Also, you claimed Claire/cheerleader for Haddock before he fakeclaimed it for himself. Scummy as all get out. Why would you do that as town?

[iguanaiguana]

So, iguana reread. This is without all the pretty links because well Cellovix should really reread iguana by himself.

- there's a bit where Haddock disagrees with stuff iguana did and says that's normal - iguana doesn't think so. I think that as a scumpair, they'd rather play up that "disagreeing" to stay true to their meta.

I wouldn't have taken him so seriously if I knew he was just scum making up BS!

- notably little interaction with both Jan and Haddock otherwise, but then again, iguana doesn't really do anything in that period of the game.
- joins the Jan wagon at L-2. That doesn't look too good.

I was very absent during D1. I remember not even reading the section that ramped up into Jan's wagon because I was too busy with work. Frankly, I didn't care who was right or wrong, but thought it very exciting that Roadrunner had a scum result on someone from a N0 action and wanted to support it. So I added my vote and I believe I pushed Jan very hard because, well, why not. I consider my D1 very towny and calling the wagon placement scummy is bollocks because as I remember I got on the wagon more or less when I noticed it for the first time.

- he votes Haddock twice during D2.
- the first content-y posts he has are about how Neighborizer isn't necessarily a town role. Well true, but also scum wants J Reggie to not be seen as conf!town.

I was thinking of Witherweaver's scum neighborizer that tricked me in Simply Simpler. I didn't want someone else who hadn't read that game to fall into the trap of being neighborized by scum and fullclaiming for no reason like I did in my first game.

- his claim and the reasoning for it seem rather natural and genuine.
- pushes Haddock on D3, and on D4 some, but then there is some sidetracking. The whole sheep Cellovix thing is not that great. I mean, originally I thought it towny, but at that time I also thought Reggie would flip scum. Since that wasn't the case, it makes quite some more sense for scum to do.

I didn't know that Cellovix would vote for J Reggie when I committed to sheeping him. It may or may not have been a stupid decision (depends on whether it is you or him that is scum, really), but it made sense at the time, and, hey, it was something interesting to do, so why not do it?

- his post-lynch fullclaim on D5 is rather towny, especially with the reasoning he's given.

Overall more towny stuff than scummy. I think I'll end up voting Cellovix. But let's wait for the reread there, it might bring to light some new stuff.

Thanks for the town points. I really just wanted to clarify what I was thinking when I made the posts that I did because once again, why not.

[iguanaiguana]

Hopefully I will get to a proper rereading tonight or tomorrow night. I really need to reread Cellovix more closely than Faust because I think what I need to consider is that Cellovix might be scum and look for evidence of that rather than just read Faust and let my bias that he is probably the scum shoot through the roof.

Hopefully I'll have time to reread both of you though and Jan/Haddock as well.