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[McGarnacle]

Say you have a deck of mostly Goons and Worker's Villages. Is it worth adding Merchant Guilds, so that "free" copper buys give you not only VP, but also lots of coin tokens?

I think it would be useful in a mirror game where you opponent is getting more VP from his Goons then you are. With the Merchant Guild, you can quickly amass lots of coin tokens, and spend them all in one turn, either three piling or buying out the Provinces or Colonies before your opponent can build up a huge VP token advantage.

[GendoIkari]

I dunno if it's a good combo or not, but in general you should NOT be getting extra Coppers from your extra Goons buys.

[brokoli]

I'm pretty sure one more goons is a lot better than one merchant guild, but it might be good if you have only $5 and you are not afraid of terminal collision. I think the goons's auto-synergy is just too good.

[Awaclus]

It's not a combo, it's engine payload, and generally it's more important to just try to get as many Goons in play as possible. It depends on the situation though.

[Accatitippi]

The problem I see is that to get the kind of megaturn you described, you need to fire your Merchant Guilds one or more turns before, buying lots of Coppers. This makes it really hard to have the number of buys you need to end the game in a boom.
Otoh, if you think that you'll have the terminal space, I suspect one or even two of these could be a good investment for your Goons deck if you hit an earlyish 5.

Watchtower/Goons/Merchant guild and lots of villages. That one would be cool.

[Awaclus]

Watchtower/Goons/Merchant guild and lots of villages. That one would be cool.

Yeah, make sure to memorize that so you'll know it when that once-in-a-lifetime kingdom with those specific cards comes up (if it ever does).

[Accatitippi]

Watchtower/Goons/Merchant guild and lots of villages. That one would be cool.

Yeah, make sure to memorize that so you'll know it when that once-in-a-lifetime kingdom with those specific cards comes up (if it ever does).

I don't think anybody should memorize that, it's quite obvious and, as you said, extremely unlikely. On the other hand, I do think that many people could appreciate how cool it would be.

[Aleimon Thimble]

Merchant Guild is a cool card, but it's kind of a poor man's Goons, honestly. Watchtower or no Watchtower.

[Dingan]

I'm not convinced Merchant Guild/Goons can by-itself be considered a combo because...

You're usually buying Coppers with Goons only in the end-game, in which case any amassed coin tokens will usually be used to buy green, opposed to useful cards.  If that's the case, consider these 2 situations:

Case 1
2 Goons in play and 0 MGs in play -> buying 8 coppers gives 16 VP right now

Case 2
1 Goons in play and 1 MG in play -> buying 8 coppers gives 8 VP right now, and 8 coin tokens -> next turn, 8 coin tokens are used to buy a province for 6 more VP

So in Case 1, you have 16 VP right now and 8 junk cards.  Case 2 you have 14 VP after next turn and 9 junk cards.  This is obviously a over-simplified toy example, but it seems you'd just rather have more Goons in play.

[McGarnacle]

This is obviously a over-simplified toy example, but it seems you'd just rather have more Goons in play.

It's not a combo, it's engine payload, and generally it's more important to just try to get as many Goons in play as possible.

I agree that it's not worth passing up a Goon for Merchant Guild, but like Accatitippi said, I think it would work for an early $5, when you can't get a Goon anyway.

[Awaclus]

I agree that it's not worth passing up a Goon for Merchant Guild, but like Accatitippi said, I think it would work for an early $5, when you can't get a Goon anyway.

You don't want to buy payload on an early $5. You'd rather want to buy a $5 engine component, and if those aren't present, buying a cheaper engine component in the early game is still better than buying payload in the early game.

[Seprix]

A much better combo would be Watchtower/Goons.

[Awaclus]

A much better combo would be Watchtower/Goons.

Which is still not a combo, but engine payload.

[ehunt]

A much better combo would be Watchtower/Goons.

Which is still not a combo, but engine payload.

I think Watchtower/Goons meets any reasonable definition of combo. But back to the original thread, in fact I think Merchant Guild is something you almost never want to add to a Goons deck; Goons needs draw and terminal-space and Merchant Guild hurts you with both.

[Awaclus]

I think Watchtower/Goons meets any reasonable definition of combo.

You can't just buy Watchtowers and Goons and expect to win the game somehow. You need to build an engine. At that point, you're playing an engine, not a combo.

[liopoil]

I think Watchtower/Goons meets any reasonable definition of combo.

You can't just buy Watchtowers and Goons and expect to win the game somehow. You need to build an engine. At that point, you're playing an engine, not a combo.

If a combo has to make a good deck playing just those cards, then the only combos O know are Hermit-MS, maybe NV-Bridge (though often beatable), bishop/fortress (beaten by the player who gets more stuff too, Rebuild/X sometimes, maybe a few more? Like, two-card decks are bad. Things like Scavenger/Stash, maybe Horse Traders/FG and the like are just rarely the best play by themselves. It's just not a useful definition. It would mean Watchtower has no good combos . Watchtower/FV or something is a bad deck by itself.

[Awaclus]

I think Watchtower/Goons meets any reasonable definition of combo.

You can't just buy Watchtowers and Goons and expect to win the game somehow. You need to build an engine. At that point, you're playing an engine, not a combo.

If a combo has to make a good deck playing just those cards, then the only combos O know are Hermit-MS, maybe NV-Bridge (though often beatable), bishop/fortress (beaten by the player who gets more stuff too, Rebuild/X sometimes, maybe a few more? Like, two-card decks are bad. Things like Scavenger/Stash, maybe Horse Traders/FG and the like are just rarely the best play by themselves. It's just not a useful definition. It would mean Watchtower has no good combos . Watchtower/FV or something is a bad deck by itself.

Well, that is pretty much it.

Hermit/Market Square, Apprentice/Market Square, Native Village/Bridge, Chancellor variant/Stash, and various golden decks (the traditional Bishop golden deck, Bishop/Fortress, Masquerade pin, King's Court/Scheme, King's Court/Scavenger, Inn/Graverobber/Procession/Feast etc) are more or less the only viable combo strategies.

Rebuild/X is a rush, Horse Traders/FG is big money and Watchtower/FV is an engine.

[Aleimon Thimble]

You are once again mixing up the two definitions of the word 'combo'. Not every combo is a combo deck. Goons/Watchtower is a combo, but obviously it is not a combo deck.

King's Court/Scheme is also not a combo deck, by the way. It is a super-reliable way to kickstart an unstoppable engine. And the traditional Bishop golden deck is definitely not a combo - it contains only one kingdom card!

[Awaclus]

You are once again mixing up the two definitions of the word 'combo'. Not every combo is a combo deck. Goons/Watchtower is a combo, but obviously it is not a combo deck.

King's Court/Scheme is also not a combo deck, by the way. It is a super-reliable way to kickstart an unstoppable engine. And the traditional Bishop golden deck is definitely not a combo - it contains only one kingdom card!

You are mixing up the definitions of the words "combo" and "synergy". Goons/Watchtower is a synergy, but obviously it is not a combo deck.

You can use King's Court and Scheme to kickstart an unstoppable engine, but you can also use it as a basis for a golden deck. Golden decks are combos. Including the traditional Bishop golden deck, which is definitely a combo.

[schadd]

petition to make nothing be defined as anything

[Chris is me]

You are once again mixing up the two definitions of the word 'combo'. Not every combo is a combo deck. Goons/Watchtower is a combo, but obviously it is not a combo deck.

You are once again arguing with a pedantic prescriptivist whom is incapable of understanding the nuances of words used in ways different than he would use them, even though it is clear as day to anyone else reading the forums what one means by saying Goons / Watchtower is a "combo". After all, what else would he be able to post about, if not hair splitting definitions of words?

[DG]

I think this goons-merchant guild situation will be rare and not a combo, as such. I could see decks being built with one goons for the attack and a number of merchant guilds, perhaps using border villages, but the problem is really the end game. A deck with multiple goons would normally look to extend the game and collect vp from buying cheap engine cards up until a 3 pile ending. A deck with multiple merchant guilds would normally collect coin tokens to buy green cards. A deck with one goons and more merchant guilds would presumably still be wanting to amass coin tokens for green cards, however a pure goons opponent would typically be able to force the 3 pile ending beforehand since both decks will be emptying similar piles.

[Awaclus]

You are once again arguing with a pedantic prescriptivist whom is incapable of understanding the nuances of words used in ways different than he would use them, even though it is clear as day to anyone else reading the forums what one means by saying Goons / Watchtower is a "combo". After all, what else would he be able to post about, if not hair splitting definitions of words?

It's not about being capable or incapable of understanding nuances, it's about how people use the words in the first place. There is a strategically relevant definition for the word "combo" (which does not include Goons/Watchtower), and using another definition downplays the importance of actual strategy principles that lead to people improving as Dominion players.

[Seprix]

You are once again arguing with a pedantic prescriptivist whom is incapable of understanding the nuances of words used in ways different than he would use them, even though it is clear as day to anyone else reading the forums what one means by saying Goons / Watchtower is a "combo". After all, what else would he be able to post about, if not hair splitting definitions of words?

It's not about being capable or incapable of understanding nuances, it's about how people use the words in the first place. There is a strategically relevant definition for the word "combo" (which does not include Goons/Watchtower), and using another definition downplays the importance of actual strategy principles that lead to people improving as Dominion players.

Alright, let's define your terms then. Answer these in terms of Dominion. What is a 'combo'? What is 'synergy'? What is a 'combo deck'? Is a 'combo deck' different than a 'combo', or are they one and the same?

[Awaclus]

You are once again arguing with a pedantic prescriptivist whom is incapable of understanding the nuances of words used in ways different than he would use them, even though it is clear as day to anyone else reading the forums what one means by saying Goons / Watchtower is a "combo". After all, what else would he be able to post about, if not hair splitting definitions of words?

It's not about being capable or incapable of understanding nuances, it's about how people use the words in the first place. There is a strategically relevant definition for the word "combo" (which does not include Goons/Watchtower), and using another definition downplays the importance of actual strategy principles that lead to people improving as Dominion players.

Alright, let's define your terms then. Answer these in terms of Dominion. What is a 'combo'? What is 'synergy'? What is a 'combo deck'? Is a 'combo deck' different than a 'combo', or are they one and the same?

A combo is a deck that is not big money, engine, rush or slog. Synergy is two (or more) cards having an interaction which is stronger than the sum of the individual cards. A combo and a combo deck are pretty much the same, just like "an engine" and "an engine deck".