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Author Topic: Creating Dominion  (Read 210502 times)

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ednever

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #225 on: April 18, 2016, 12:30:16 pm »
+1

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.

I think that most people understand that ongoing services have a cost.  Some places use donation models to keep things going (BGA, Yucata, Kingdom of Loathing).  Some use pay-to-win or pay-for-hats to keep things going (Prismata, Hearthstone, and *shudder* mobile freemium).  And others use subscriptions.

Making Fun had an unsustainable business model.  They were going to get less and less revenue each month at some point, and server costs were going to eat them.

The thing about subscriptions is, you don't have to pay every month!  Shit hit the fan IRL?  Cancel for the next few months, bam, done.  You could request/suggest that the free year be allowed to be taken as 12 months, I suppose.

And yes, you could argue that a donation model might work.  But how many people will donate to server costs?  Would they need a yearly donation drive like BGG or Wikipedia?  How quickly would that start to hurt?  I personally would rather have a sustainable service, and $3 a month is an incredible price point.

Both groups have a point.

MakingFun's model was a bad one. But that didn't stop Rio Grand from making the deal with them. So there is some responsibility there.

The "contract" MF made with players was "buy this product and get to use it online forever". Note that the price they charged was VERY VERY high. Normal online games are nowhere close to $90 for the "full service". Also note that server costs are low and getting cheaper everyday. Most costs for an online service are one-time fixed costs. So the one time charge is less crazy than it sounds (more bad from a revenue perspective than due to cost structure)

I think people who paid $90 for a specific thing are right to be pissed off that those contracts are being thrown away and replaced with a vastly weaker product: Either less than half the functionality or only one year of service (and still less functionality).

I honestly think RG is setting themselves up for s class action lawsuit.

I think there best options at this point are:

1- Offer full refunds to original buyers
2- Offer free lifetime service to original buyers (expansions purchased)

If they were willing to take more risks they could offer the $90 as credit on the new platform (likely after getting people to sign a contract promising not to sue). But even that is a little risky.

What they are doing now counts on a court saying that all liability lies with MakingFun. It's possible but I wouldn't count on that if I was Jay.

Ed
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #226 on: April 18, 2016, 12:37:11 pm »
+1

I haven't read all of the other replies but I have to admit that I also find this entire ordeal really annoying. I payed the equivalent of $90, so I can occasionally play Dominion at my free leisure. Recently I had troubles in my life and didn't really have time for anything and I still don't and now you're telling me that my purchase will basically be just a waste? Making my purchase the equivalent of a service of about $36 is not a good reimbursement, come on. I'd rather prefer MF to still hold the contract at this time even though it is far from perfect and made me use SCSNs mod to make it more bearable.

I'd rather pay a steep price once than pay a little each month and feel like I wasted money if I don't play at least once this month. I am disillusioned at how poor structered the new pay model is and how everyone is so ecstatic about these news.

I think that most people understand that ongoing services have a cost.  Some places use donation models to keep things going (BGA, Yucata, Kingdom of Loathing).  Some use pay-to-win or pay-for-hats to keep things going (Prismata, Hearthstone, and *shudder* mobile freemium).  And others use subscriptions.

Making Fun had an unsustainable business model.  They were going to get less and less revenue each month at some point, and server costs were going to eat them.

The thing about subscriptions is, you don't have to pay every month!  Shit hit the fan IRL?  Cancel for the next few months, bam, done.  You could request/suggest that the free year be allowed to be taken as 12 months, I suppose.

And yes, you could argue that a donation model might work.  But how many people will donate to server costs?  Would they need a yearly donation drive like BGG or Wikipedia?  How quickly would that start to hurt?  I personally would rather have a sustainable service, and $3 a month is an incredible price point.

Both groups have a point.

MakingFun's model was a bad one. But that didn't stop Rio Grand from making the deal with them. So there is some responsibility there.

The "contract" MF made with players was "buy this product and get to use it online forever". Note that the price they charged was VERY VERY high. Normal online games are nowhere close to $90 for the "full service". Also note that server costs are low and getting cheaper everyday. Most costs for an online service are one-time fixed costs. So the one time charge is less crazy than it sounds (more bad from a revenue perspective than due to cost structure)

I think people who paid $90 for a specific thing are right to be pissed off that those contracts are being thrown away and replaced with a vastly weaker product: Either less than half the functionality or only one year of service (and still less functionality).

I honestly think RG is setting themselves up for s class action lawsuit.

I think there best options at this point are:

1- Offer full refunds to original buyers
2- Offer free lifetime service to original buyers (expansions purchased)

If they were willing to take more risks they could offer the $90 as credit on the new platform (likely after getting people to sign a contract promising not to sue). But even that is a little risky.

What they are doing now counts on a court saying that all liability lies with MakingFun. It's possible but I wouldn't count on that if I was Jay.

Ed

Here is the Mf policy:

Virtual Currencies and Goods

The Service may include a virtual, in-game currency (“Virtual Currency”) including, but not limited to coins, cash, or points that may be purchased for actual money if you are a legal adult in your country of residence. Examples of Virtual Currency include, but are not limited to, “Ducats” in Dominion, “Tickets” in Hidden Express, “Gems” in Mage and Minions, and “Gold” in BloodRealm. The Service may also include virtual, in-game digital items (“Virtual Goods”) that may be purchased from Making Fun for actual money or for Virtual Currency. Regardless of the terminology used, Virtual Currency and Virtual Goods may never be redeemed for actual money, goods or other items of monetary value from Making Fun or any other party.

Other than a limited, personal, revocable, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable and non-exclusive license to use the Virtual Goods or Virtual Currency within the Service, you have no right or title in or to any such Virtual Goods or Virtual Currency appearing or originating within the Service, or any other attributes associated with use of the Service or stored within the Service.

Making Fun has the absolute right, but not the obligation, to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods as it sees fit in its sole discretion, and Making Fun shall have no liability to you or any third party for the exercise of such rights.

Transfers of Virtual Currencies and Virtual Goods are strictly prohibited except where explicitly authorized within the Service. Outside of the game, you may not buy or sell any Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods for “real world” money or other items of value. Any attempt to do so is in violation of these Terms and may result in a lifetime ban from the Service and possible legal action.

You agree that all sales of Virtual Goods and Virtual Currencies are final. No refunds will be given, except in our sole and absolute discretion. All Virtual Goods and Virtual Currencies are forfeited if your Account is terminated or suspended for any reason, in Making Fun’s sole and absolute discretion, or if Making Fun discontinues providing the Service or the Game where the Virtual Goods or Virtual Currencies were obtained.


I am no lawyer, but this looks pretty clear to me. They never promised you anything of that sort, and you're not even entitled to the first year of online Dominion.
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Watno

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #227 on: April 18, 2016, 12:39:46 pm »
+2

Well, Goko aquired a license for Online Dominion for a limited amount of time. If Goko/MF claimed their product would eb available for ever, there's no way you can blame RGG for that.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #228 on: April 18, 2016, 12:54:50 pm »
0

I am 99.9% certain the agreement lies with MF and Goko. So, if you want to sue someone, sue either of them. As it stands, I'm pretty sure things like this have happened in the past. Essentially, when we bought expansions, we did so with an agreement with MF or Goko. Now, that they have lost the license, the agreement is no longer valid.

Now, I do believe something should be done to compensate those who paid $90. There are likely people who never read any forums of any kind and will purchase blindly. If I were in their shoes, I would feel very stupid after finding out my purchase is no longer valid. As it is, I feel Stef and Co. are doing the best they can. But, I would maybe try and see how recent a purchase was, and go from there. I'm not sure what they can do. But, if I say, I buy Dominion Online in December and then come January, is it fair that my purchase is only good until the end of 2017?

I wish I had an easy solution for this tricky situation. I know a lot of people will be upset, and it's unfortunate.
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Kirian

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #229 on: April 18, 2016, 01:00:25 pm »
+6

I honestly think RG is setting themselves up for s class action lawsuit.

....

What they are doing now counts on a court saying that all liability lies with MakingFun. It's possible but I wouldn't count on that if I was Jay.

Are you... serious?  Like, actually serious?  There aren't enough people to form a large class, there isn't a lawyer in the country who would take a class action suit with a maximum payout under a million dollars, and MF's terms, as noted by drsteelhammer, are pretty clear that nothing of the sort was promised, and any lawyer will laugh in your face if even if they were willing to take a very small class action to court.

Sure, I'm not actually a lawyer, but I bet theory will back me up on this assessment of how CA suits work...
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #230 on: April 18, 2016, 01:05:54 pm »
+8

Seriously though, the entitlement mentality I'm seeing from (very few) people in this thread makes me completely understand why Donald and Jay were leery of ever doing this at all.  Get a grip, guys.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #231 on: April 18, 2016, 01:15:15 pm »
0

Fun fact: not all users agreements, even if you agree to them, are legal. :)

I believe in the concept of sunk costs. Bygones
are bygones. I look forward to thz product. :)
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #232 on: April 18, 2016, 01:48:59 pm »
+1

There could be an achievement for having owned expansions previously if the achievement system gets implemented. It wouldn't really help, but it would be pretty cool.
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Seprix

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #233 on: April 18, 2016, 01:49:18 pm »
+1

I honestly think RGG is setting themselves up for a class action lawsuit.

No, they're not! This is getting completely ludicrous.

I just can't wait to start hearing arguments in this thread about laws and fine print from people who know nothing about laws and fine print.
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Kirian

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #234 on: April 18, 2016, 01:58:47 pm »
+4

There could be an achievement for having owned expansions previously if the achievement system gets implemented. It wouldn't really help, but it would be pretty cool.

Like the achievements that are on my WOW account for doing things before they were updated, that you can't actually achieve any more.  Achievement Unlocked:  I survived the Goko/MF era...
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #235 on: April 18, 2016, 02:16:18 pm »
+3

There could be an achievement for having owned expansions previously if the achievement system gets implemented. It wouldn't really help, but it would be pretty cool.

Like the achievements that are on my WOW account for doing things before they were updated, that you can't actually achieve any more.  Achievement Unlocked:  I survived the Goko/MF era...

Achievement Unlocked: Isotropic is going down? - played 100 or more games on isotropic
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #236 on: April 18, 2016, 02:17:48 pm »
+5

Achievement Unlocked: Participate in a class-action law suit.
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Kirian

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #237 on: April 18, 2016, 02:36:34 pm »
+3

There could be an achievement for having owned expansions previously if the achievement system gets implemented. It wouldn't really help, but it would be pretty cool.

Like the achievements that are on my WOW account for doing things before they were updated, that you can't actually achieve any more.  Achievement Unlocked:  I survived the Goko/MF era...

Achievement Unlocked: Isotropic is going down? - played 100 or more games on isotropic

Wait, what?  Isotropic is going down??!!
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Seprix

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #238 on: April 18, 2016, 04:38:25 pm »
0

I think I'll have my sets transferred to Offline when that option comes on, but of course I'll have to look at what the offline thing has on it.
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Robz888

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #239 on: April 18, 2016, 06:12:55 pm »
+9

Coming to this thread late, but a hearty congratulations to Stef and SCSN! I am overjoyed by this news. I just recently started playing a good amount of online Dominion again, and it's nice to know online Dominion has a future. In fact, the future already looks brighter than it has in years.
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TadyBoy

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #240 on: April 18, 2016, 06:51:26 pm »
0

I am very concern about the price structure propose from 2017 (month payment). I cannot foresee nothing good about that; and as i can see i am not the only one.

I do understand that some people are willing to pay a game before even knowing the game; for others this is not true. I believe lots of Dominion players start as guests, then move to base players, make an account in the forum as they start climbing in the ranking, start playing league games, champioships,etc, then move to enhance the community=making articles, do streaming, helping maintain a small but ongoing Dominion community. Between those steps players bye expansions which keep the wheel spinning.
At this moment instead of trying to make newer players approach the game and existing ones consume products you are telling players: "if you want to play pay, otherwise leave".
I found difficult to understand the approach you had taken to make Dominion profitable for merely two persons. Its hard not to ask if selling hats (alt art, badges, screens, card borders, sounds), getting money from advertisements, money from tournaments you could organize among others was not enough to keep the business viable (dont forget the money from selling expansions). Empire would be only yours to sell ($).

I dont want to be read as someone who is crying over something that is settle, but like a potential client who was about to get every expansions and that is told that product is no longer available.
I hope i am wrong and the community grows. I love the game, but i am not willing to pay a month fee. Some months i just play tournament games....is 3$ reasonable to play only one season league? I dont know, but i rather had every card to play wherever i want.

For last i want to mention something no one has: the effect of your price structure to MF. With this claim you had buried MF possibilities of making any profit, no one is going to bye expansions late 2016..... or maybe now. Not only you have honored players purchases but you have heavily affect MF incomes. From day to night i feel pity for MF, they where inefficient but i think they dont deserve this as they have improve and they have given us something you are not willing to from 2017.

Capting new player should be the main issue of every Dominion implementations onwards; hope my post remember Stef and SCSN that.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #241 on: April 18, 2016, 06:58:56 pm »
+3

First things first: Everyone gets 1-YEAR OF SERVICE FOR FREE, assuming you already bought the expansions. That means if people don't like the product, they are free to not renew their subscription in January 2018. I am also confident they will make a free-to-play version as Donald X. has already stated. My guess is that the Base Game will continue to be free, or they will offer a free trial of X-games per month or something.

Second, I do feel some pity for MF. And, yes, this announcement I am sure will have a heavy impact on their sales and revenue streams. With that said, their contract was only good until the end of this year. It is better for the consumer to know now what is on the table, so that the customer can make purchases wisely. With that said, I will still buy Adventures off of MF. I think it will be around somewhere of $15. I'm willing to pay that to use it for the next few months before we get the new client. Yes, it sucks to be them. But, I'm sure they knew this announcement was coming sooner or later.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #242 on: April 18, 2016, 07:17:56 pm »
0

At this moment instead of trying to make newer players approach the game and existing ones consume products you are telling players: "if you want to play pay, otherwise leave".

See here:

For sure we understand that there has to be a way to try the system for free. For offline play there will be levels you can try, like a campaign. I'm not sure what we do for online play but obv. we have to have some way to try it for free.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #243 on: April 18, 2016, 07:33:23 pm »
+5

My suggestions for free online would be: base set + a set of 'standard' kingdoms (the recommended one from zxpansions?) that people can play.

Because you'll get tired of them, but it will leave you wanting more.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #244 on: April 19, 2016, 03:30:11 am »
0

This might actually get me to start playing Dominion again (and I doubt I'm the only one).
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #245 on: April 19, 2016, 05:35:16 am »
+1

My suggestions for free online would be: base set + a set of 'standard' kingdoms (the recommended one from zxpansions?) that people can play.

Because you'll get tired of them, but it will leave you wanting more.

While I like your idea, I think I'd prefer free players to have base + about 10 other cards that change every week. That way you can still play a good amount and variety of free games without the "demo" feeling, if you don't play many games per week.
Keeping a free and satisfied player base is good, because if they ever get tired, you'll lose a potential customer. They shouldn't get tired, they should just want more. :)
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #246 on: April 19, 2016, 05:44:06 am »
+2

My suggestions for free online would be: base set + a set of 'standard' kingdoms (the recommended one from zxpansions?) that people can play.

Because you'll get tired of them, but it will leave you wanting more.

While I like your idea, I think I'd prefer free players to have base + about 10 other cards that change every week. That way you can still play a good amount and variety of free games without the "demo" feeling, if you don't play many games per week.
Keeping a free and satisfied player base is good, because if they ever get tired, you'll lose a potential customer. They shouldn't get tired, they should just want more. :)

10 is probably too much (a lot of players might not want to learn 10 new cards every week, and 10 cards already add enough variety that it would lead to fewer people actually buying the expansions). 1-3 would be fine.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #247 on: April 19, 2016, 05:50:14 am »
+2

For last i want to mention something no one has: the effect of your price structure to MF. With this claim you had buried MF possibilities of making any profit, no one is going to bye expansions late 2016..... or maybe now. Not only you have honored players purchases but you have heavily affect MF incomes. From day to night i feel pity for MF, they where inefficient but i think they dont deserve this as they have improve and they have given us something you are not willing to from 2017.

Stef and SCSN are not running a charity for Making Fun. If you feel sorry for them, you can go ahead and start a movement that supports Making Fun by having people create alt accounts and buying all expansions again. I don't see how it's Stef's and SCSN's job to provide for Making Fun any more than it is yours.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #248 on: April 19, 2016, 06:19:52 am »
+3

For last i want to mention something no one has: the effect of your price structure to MF. With this claim you had buried MF possibilities of making any profit, no one is going to bye expansions late 2016..... or maybe now. Not only you have honored players purchases but you have heavily affect MF incomes. From day to night i feel pity for MF, they where inefficient but i think they dont deserve this as they have improve and they have given us something you are not willing to from 2017.

I'm not a huge fan of S&S's pricing system, like I mentioned before, but really, don't feel sorry for Making Fun. They failed to do their job well enough, so the contract was discontinued and now they will lose money because of it. If you have a start-up but turn out not to be a great businessman, you will lose a lot of money, and if you fail at your job, you get fired. That's just the way the world works.

Also, like Beyond Awesome says, if they ever finally release Adventures they will make a bit of cash again. I'll also buy Adventures on MF when I get the chance.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 06:20:58 am by Aleimon Thimble »
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #249 on: April 19, 2016, 03:27:47 pm »
0

These clients will run on Windows, Mac and Linux, or any other platform that supports running Java.

Am I misinterpreting this or will the Mac client be Java-based?
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