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[AdrianHealey]

Awaclus,

I like these threads. I have the feeling I gain benefit from them. If not information, than enjoyment. Do you think I am misguided, as in the case with alternative medicine (where people think there is a causal relationship between 'taking homeopathic stuf' and 'getting cured'), or not?

[Awaclus]

Awaclus,

I like these threads. I have the feeling I gain benefit from them. If not information, than enjoyment. Do you think I am misguided, as in the case with alternative medicine (where people think there is a causal relationship between 'taking homeopathic stuf' and 'getting cured'), or not?

Not in the exact same sense as people who feel like they are physically cured by alternative medicine, but basically yes. I do believe that you could be doing better stuff with your time, both in terms of enjoyment and getting better at Dominion.

[Witherweaver]

Like, for example, go smash your head against the while.  It is, very likely, far more enjoyable than talking with Awaclus.

[Seprix]

Awaclus,

I like these threads. I have the feeling I gain benefit from them. If not information, than enjoyment. Do you think I am misguided, as in the case with alternative medicine (where people think there is a causal relationship between 'taking homeopathic stuf' and 'getting cured'), or not?

Not in the exact same sense as people who feel like they are physically cured by alternative medicine, but basically yes. I do believe that you could be doing better stuff with your time, both in terms of enjoyment and getting better at Dominion.

There is no substitute for simply playing the game, but talking about cards and situations is clearly beneficial to newer players and sometimes even veterans of the game. Just because you've been around the block and clearly know everything there is to know does not means others do. I don't see a reason not to have discussion about older cards at all.

[eHalcyon]

Why are we having forced discussions? If there's something you actually want to discuss (i.e. either you have something useful to say, or a useful question to ask (and to be very honest, "how does Smithy compare against Count" or "what is the exact number of Libraries you want in every game ever" or "what turn is the best time to buy Remodel" or "how does Village combo with Herbalist" aren't really the kind of questions we need to be asking about the base set right now)), make a thread on that subject or necro an existing one, because that is much more likely to inspire others to have something interesting to say on the subject as well, and you can do it whenever you want instead of waiting for all of the 134 discussions that are scheduled to be had before the discussion about the card you want to discuss. If there isn't anything you really want to discuss, why discuss anything?

Because of inertia.  If no discussion thread exists, people tend not to start a discussion.  If a discussion thread is made, people become more inclined to contribute and voice their opinion.

Well, that's precisely what I was suggesting. Start a discussion iff you have something to say.

It also stimulates discussion in areas where we might not otherwise go. Like right now, where we're actually discussing Adventurer.

And nobody has said anything useful that we didn't already know.

You're misreading.  What I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who have something to say that won't start discussions on their own.

Surely you have something better to do with your time than complaining about people talking about Dominion.

[AdrianHealey]

Awaclus,

I like these threads. I have the feeling I gain benefit from them. If not information, than enjoyment. Do you think I am misguided, as in the case with alternative medicine (where people think there is a causal relationship between 'taking homeopathic stuf' and 'getting cured'), or not?

Not in the exact same sense as people who feel like they are physically cured by alternative medicine, but basically yes. I do believe that you could be doing better stuff with your time, both in terms of enjoyment and getting better at Dominion.

 

I mean, the second part is a productivity argument (ends-means). People can very often be wrong about that. But regarding first part - a pure consumption good - it's pretty mind baffling that you take a 'I know better' attitude on that.

[Awaclus]

There is no substitute for simply playing the game, but talking about cards and situations is clearly beneficial to newer players and sometimes even veterans of the game. Just because you've been around the block and clearly know everything there is to know does not means others do. I don't see a reason not to have discussion about older cards at all.

I haven't "been around the block", I'm pretty new here. It doesn't mean I couldn't learn from the old discussions. In fact, that would be a way more efficient way to learn, because when something is being discussed for the 23423409th time, a lot of the people who have already had those 23423408 discussions no longer feel like participating in that discussion, and then you're getting a way worse discussion.

You're misreading.  What I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who have something to say that won't start discussions on their own.

Well, apparently those people still won't say anything if someone else starts the discussion, judging from how largely absent they've been here.

I mean, the second part is a productivity argument (ends-means). People can very often be wrong about that. But regarding first part - a pure consumption good - it's pretty mind baffling that you take a 'I know better' attitude on that.

Why wouldn't I?

[Seprix]

I haven't "been around the block", I'm pretty new here.

> new here
> Registered on December 29, 2012

I'm way newer here than you are.

[eHalcyon]

You're misreading.  What I'm saying is that there are plenty of people who have something to say that won't start discussions on their own.

Well, apparently those people still won't say anything if someone else starts the discussion, judging from how largely absent they've been here.

The evidence is not with you.  I notice that you yourself have participated in the discussion threads.  Donald has participated.  Many others have as well, most of whom aren't usually topic starters.

[Awaclus]

The evidence is not with you.  I notice that you yourself have participated in the discussion threads.  Donald has participated.  Many others have as well, most of whom aren't usually topic starters.

Yes, to not say anything useful. For instance, just now in the Adventurer thread, I said that Adventurer is useful when you super need more draw for your engine that already has other draw in it. That's pretty old news, I've been saying that for ages. Old news aren't useful.

[Donald X.]

Guys, stop torturing Awaclus. Don't make him say it flat out.

Those threads killed Awaclus's father.

[Donald X.]

There isn't a power creep, more like a complexity creep.

But this is not a bad thing, because later expansions are mostly bought by experienced players and they do like the added complexity.

I agree that there's complexity creep, but not that it's not bad. It's bad. It's just unavoidable. There aren't enough simple things to do.

That later sets have more strategic complexity is good. It's just bad that it's paired with cards that are harder to understand, have more words, require more rulebook space.

Here's one of Mark Rosewater's articles that talks about these things: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/new-world-order-2011-12-02

[werothegreat]

I want a card with so much text you have to make the picture smaller just to keep the font legible.

[LastFootnote]

There isn't a power creep, more like a complexity creep.

But this is not a bad thing, because later expansions are mostly bought by experienced players and they do like the added complexity.

I agree that there's complexity creep, but not that it's not bad. It's bad. It's just unavoidable. There aren't enough simple things to do.

The good news is that, for each step up in complexity, the number of good new cards you can make is an order of magnitude larger than the previous step. Or thereabouts.

[eHalcyon]

The evidence is not with you.  I notice that you yourself have participated in the discussion threads.  Donald has participated.  Many others have as well, most of whom aren't usually topic starters.

Yes, to not say anything useful. For instance, just now in the Adventurer thread, I said that Adventurer is useful when you super need more draw for your engine that already has other draw in it. That's pretty old news, I've been saying that for ages. Old news aren't useful.

Maybe it's not useful or enjoyable for you, but that doesn't necessarily apply to others.

Sorry about your father.

[Darth Vader]

Guys, stop torturing Awaclus. Don't make him say it flat out.

Those threads killed Awaclus's father.

But I'm not dead.

[LastFootnote]

There isn't a power creep, more like a complexity creep.

But this is not a bad thing, because later expansions are mostly bought by experienced players and they do like the added complexity.

I agree that there's complexity creep, but not that it's not bad. It's bad. It's just unavoidable. There aren't enough simple things to do.

The good news is that, for each step up in complexity, the number of good new cards you can make is an order of magnitude larger than the previous step. Or thereabouts.

I guess for Dominion this is only partially true. What I was mostly talking about is words; as you allow more words on a card, the number of cards (and good cards) you can make increases uh more than linearly. Let's say quadratically. But really the best type of complexity is adding new mechanics. When you add a new mechanic, the number of interesting cards you could create increases drastically, but in reality is sharply limited by mechanics being partitioned into sets. There are no Potion-cost Duration cards, etc. Not that those two mechanics necessarily interact in an interesting way, but you get the idea.

[Awaclus]

The evidence is not with you.  I notice that you yourself have participated in the discussion threads.  Donald has participated.  Many others have as well, most of whom aren't usually topic starters.

Yes, to not say anything useful. For instance, just now in the Adventurer thread, I said that Adventurer is useful when you super need more draw for your engine that already has other draw in it. That's pretty old news, I've been saying that for ages. Old news aren't useful.

Maybe it's not useful or enjoyable for you, but that doesn't necessarily apply to others.

Sorry about your father.

I'm pretty sure it's not useful for anyone, but I guess some are easily entertained.

[markusin]

Whenever I think of cards with complex wording, I immediately think of Butcher. It takes like a minute to figure out that it's a Remodel variant.

[markusin]

The evidence is not with you.  I notice that you yourself have participated in the discussion threads.  Donald has participated.  Many others have as well, most of whom aren't usually topic starters.

Yes, to not say anything useful. For instance, just now in the Adventurer thread, I said that Adventurer is useful when you super need more draw for your engine that already has other draw in it. That's pretty old news, I've been saying that for ages. Old news aren't useful.

Maybe it's not useful or enjoyable for you, but that doesn't necessarily apply to others.

Sorry about your father.

I'm pretty sure it's not useful for anyone, but I guess some are easily entertained.

Concerning this topic about Adventures (not to be confused with Adventurer) discussion, I feel like just having the players who have played with the cards inform those that haven't whether they think a card is good or not is insightful enough as a starting point. Kind of like a really premature Qvist Ranking.

Oh wait, we already had one of those that included Adventures.

[Donald X.]

I guess for Dominion this is only partially true. What I was mostly talking about is words; as you allow more words on a card, the number of cards (and good cards) you can make increases uh more than linearly. Let's say quadratically. But really the best type of complexity is adding new mechanics. When you add a new mechanic, the number of interesting cards you could create increases drastically, but in reality is sharply limited by mechanics being partitioned into sets. There are no Potion-cost Duration cards, etc. Not that those two mechanics necessarily interact in an interesting way, but you get the idea.

The text explaining what a card does has to go somewhere. It can be taken off of a card by putting it into the rulebook. The coin tokens are a great example of this. "Take a coin token." So simple!

Hiding the complexity in the rulebook doesn't mean getting rid of it. The actual reduction in complexity is due to doing the same thing over and over on different cards. You have to learn it once, and learn the thing that will identify it, that's an extra thing. But then it can be on eight cards and you only learned two things.

There are a lot of players though who really appreciate not having to look at the rulebook, being able to just play Dominion with random cards and know what they do from the card text. The game gets worse for them with each thing like coin tokens.

[LastFootnote]

I guess for Dominion this is only partially true. What I was mostly talking about is words; as you allow more words on a card, the number of cards (and good cards) you can make increases uh more than linearly. Let's say quadratically. But really the best type of complexity is adding new mechanics. When you add a new mechanic, the number of interesting cards you could create increases drastically, but in reality is sharply limited by mechanics being partitioned into sets. There are no Potion-cost Duration cards, etc. Not that those two mechanics necessarily interact in an interesting way, but you get the idea.

The text explaining what a card does has to go somewhere. It can be taken off of a card by putting it into the rulebook. The coin tokens are a great example of this. "Take a coin token." So simple!

Hiding the complexity in the rulebook doesn't mean getting rid of it. The actual reduction in complexity is due to doing the same thing over and over on different cards. You have to learn it once, and learn the thing that will identify it, that's an extra thing. But then it can be on eight cards and you only learned two things.

There are a lot of players though who really appreciate not having to look at the rulebook, being able to just play Dominion with random cards and know what they do from the card text. The game gets worse for them with each thing like coin tokens.

For me, this is an argument for new players playing with just e.g. two sets at a time, rather than full random. When a new player has to learn Duration rules, Reserve rules, Potion rules, etc. all at the same time, and each one only applies for one card in the game, that's a big turnoff. For the online version, I think the Campaigns mode does a good job there.

[Seprix]

Once I knew all the cards and what they do, I could never just go back to the simplicity of the Base Set, and I think the vast majority of people would be the same. It's simply a matter of introducing new concepts slowly game by game.

[Witherweaver]

I guess for Dominion this is only partially true. What I was mostly talking about is words; as you allow more words on a card, the number of cards (and good cards) you can make increases uh more than linearly. Let's say quadratically. But really the best type of complexity is adding new mechanics. When you add a new mechanic, the number of interesting cards you could create increases drastically, but in reality is sharply limited by mechanics being partitioned into sets. There are no Potion-cost Duration cards, etc. Not that those two mechanics necessarily interact in an interesting way, but you get the idea.

The text explaining what a card does has to go somewhere. It can be taken off of a card by putting it into the rulebook. The coin tokens are a great example of this. "Take a coin token." So simple!

Hiding the complexity in the rulebook doesn't mean getting rid of it. The actual reduction in complexity is due to doing the same thing over and over on different cards. You have to learn it once, and learn the thing that will identify it, that's an extra thing. But then it can be on eight cards and you only learned two things.

There are a lot of players though who really appreciate not having to look at the rulebook, being able to just play Dominion with random cards and know what they do from the card text. The game gets worse for them with each thing like coin tokens.

You should try getting the card explanation text hidden into the card art somewhere.

[werothegreat]

Guys, stop torturing Awaclus. Don't make him say it flat out.

Those threads killed Awaclus's father.

But I'm not dead.

You are... from a certain point of view.