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[Haddock]

Well, back to work.

Well played silver and fonti.


Also well played WW.  That was a ridiculously convincing scum game.

[2.71828.....]

I was extremely disappointed that Witherweaver lynched me

[2.71828.....]

I mean, my analysis was correct (mostly): town could not win lynching me. And would you know it, only one town voted me. 3 scum (partner, survivor, and sk) were the ones who killed me.

The part I lied about was the knowledge of the survivor. Lynching fontisian was an instant win for mafia because the 3-2 situation did not exist. It was always 2-2-survivor.

But still, even with that. No lynching. Some of silverspawn's final posts had me wondering "what team are you really on?" But I kept quiet about him being survivor. Right play? Maybe.

@silverspawn: did you make an actual decision to win with the SK or did you think you could still win with scum? And why on earth redirect haddock and not font?

[2.71828.....]

Moriarty has to power to choose whichever scumteam is winning and tell then about the other scumteam AND get the losing scumteam to keep losing by still shooting town. He also gets to coordinate the two team's nightkills amd can appear towny very easily by "bussing" when actually this does not hurt his wincon (see: the fabricated iguana scumslip). His existence makes a scum win and a moriarty win highly probable. Not to mention that he is basically immune to NK. He nearly effectively has control of a 6-person scumteam with two kills, and town just doesn't stand a chance to that.

fontisian was never forced to out herself to silver. Scum had it harder, but they could have banned silver from their QT, which they didn't. The mafia team made a big mistake in trusting silver too much, and that is why they lost. They could have easily lynched silver, but they didn't. They could also have nightkilled him if they tried hard enough. Moriarty was a boost to the SK and a nerf for the mafia mostly.

me in the scum qt:

yeah, one thing we can trust moriarty in (I mean, especially knowing that it is silverspawn) is that he will work toward his win con. If he thinks winning with scum is the best way to accomplish that, his evil mastermind ideas will work toward that end.

But we are in the classic survivor scenario that town is usually put in. Kill the survivor even though he might be useful to you, or let him live and risk being betrayed. I vote that we let moriarty live, and work for us....for now at least.

[silverspawn]

@silverspawn: did you make an actual decision to win with the SK or did you think you could still win with scum?

Well, both. I decided to try to win with the SK early on, but if she had died unexpectedly, sure I would've won with scum. In the end, the SK thing seemed easily possible, so I went with that.

And why on earth redirect haddock and not font?

Er... why would I redirect font?

I chose haddock for the vague possibility that he's a doctor or vig.

[2.71828.....]

How can the mafia team lynch me? I have all of their identities. And it's not like a prisoners dilemma where doing it loses my ability to blackmail; I can sell them out piece by piece if I want to.

yeah, I do not like giving any non-mafia access to the mafia qt.  We were forced to trust silverspawn because of the design of the game.  He should have had some sort of restriction where if he gives off any knowledge learned from posting in the scum qt or he commits suicide or something. 

[2.71828.....]

@silverspawn: did you make an actual decision to win with the SK or did you think you could still win with scum?

Well, both. I decided to try to win with the SK early on, but if she had died unexpectedly, sure I would've won with scum. In the end, the SK thing seemed easily possible, so I went with that.

And why on earth redirect haddock and not font?

Er... why would I redirect font?

I chose haddock for the vague possibility that he's a doctor or vig.

ok, good enough.  you would redirect font and win the game with scum.  after my lynch you still had a decision on whether you won with font or with mafia.  redirect font onto town, ww kills town, you win with mafia.  direct font onto WW, and you win with font.

being able to reveal scum to the SK in the qt I think is also outrageous.  Like, huge design flaw.

[2.71828.....]

/m22

Teproc is the 1-Shot Lightning Rod / 1-Shot Nexus
2.7 is the watcher/doctor.
gkrieg is the Even night (Ninja Busdriver)
Hydrad is the Goon

like, this post in the SK neighborhood qt is just cheap.  I think it is basically on the same level of how reinoe outed scum to everyone in Lost Mafia.  Granted, SK is going to keep scum alive for longer period of time because she wins in the situation like we had at the end of the game, I just think the game is flawed when information like this can be handed out to non-mafia.

[2.71828.....]

I think that instead of voting to exclude the survivor, mafia should have been given the choice to include the survivor.  same with SK.

Sure, we could ban silverspawn, but HE ALREADY KNEW WHO WE WERE.  like, at that point it is too late.  Yeah, we should have read and not outed all of our roles, but roles weren't so important.  You shouldn't have to win with your role.  You should win with your play in the thread.

I think having the option to vote (as a team) to include the survivor, would have been a much better mechanic

[2.71828.....]

Still, I enjoyed the game a lot.  I basically killed myself because of my inactivity through most of the game.  That was my fault.  So really I have nothing to complain about.  I am still baffled as to how town decides to lynch regular mafia over a SK though.  Just baffled.  I honestly don't know how any of them came to that decision.

[Haddock]

Still, I enjoyed the game a lot.  I basically killed myself because of my inactivity through most of the game.  That was my fault.  So really I have nothing to complain about.  I am still baffled as to how town decides to lynch regular mafia over a SK though.  Just baffled.  I honestly don't know how any of them came to that decision.

Well only one actually did come to that decision. 
Lynching SK was still a town loss though thanks to the existence of silver.

[2.71828.....]

Sigh. Alright. I'm the serial killer. I shot Jan, seprix, ichi and Regi. I went for e today because I investigated him, know he's mafia, and have reason to believe they're close to over run.

Like, are you serious.  This just makes me furious.  THE SK SHOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO KNOW WHO SCUM IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, I mean, font's whole case thing, then "oh, btw, I investigated e"

right

Town trusted font's "investigation" (which was accurate) but it was really silverspawn playing the system by giving away information on who scum was to fontisian.  WITHOUT THAT "INVESTIGATION" we lynch fontisian no problem. 

I am not faulting silverspawn in any way for all of this.  I think he is the MVP, not font.  He convinced town with his bad numbers.  He convinced WW to vote against his partner for the SK+survivor win.  But he had way more information than he should have.  And that is a design flaw. 

irks

[2.71828.....]

Still, I enjoyed the game a lot.  I basically killed myself because of my inactivity through most of the game.  That was my fault.  So really I have nothing to complain about.  I am still baffled as to how town decides to lynch regular mafia over a SK though.  Just baffled.  I honestly don't know how any of them came to that decision.

Well only one actually did come to that decision. 
Lynching SK was still a town loss though thanks to the existence of silver.

yes.  But in a world without silverspawn being scum.  With him being regular town like the fake numbers both silverspawn and I advocated, lynching SK at least would have given town a chance.  It would have taken it to lylo.  I think town (in their awful situation) should have seen that that was their best option.  It was a false situation, but it would have been the best one.

[2.71828.....]

like, throw in an addendum like "revealing any information as to the identity of any scum or town as revealed by the mod or through a qt results in an immediate loss" for the survivor's wincon.  He doesn't need to be mod-killed or anything, but he needs something to prevent him from sharing that information

[faust]

like, throw in an addendum like "revealing any information as to the identity of any scum or town as revealed by the mod or through a qt results in an immediate loss" for the survivor's wincon.  He doesn't need to be mod-killed or anything, but he needs something to prevent him from sharing that information

I don't see what the big trouble is when the SK knows who the mafia is. Adding poting restrictions is certainly infinitely worse. Like, what does this even mean? Should I punish him if he votes for someone he knows is scum. What if he says "Because he's scum", Awaclus-style? This is just broken.

[silverspawn]

posting restrictions never work, but I can see e's perspective.

[2.71828.....]

like, throw in an addendum like "revealing any information as to the identity of any scum or town as revealed by the mod or through a qt results in an immediate loss" for the survivor's wincon.  He doesn't need to be mod-killed or anything, but he needs something to prevent him from sharing that information

I don't see what the big trouble is when the SK knows who the mafia is. Adding poting restrictions is certainly infinitely worse. Like, what does this even mean? Should I punish him if he votes for someone he knows is scum. What if he says "Because he's scum", Awaclus-style? This is just broken.

yeah, I don't know how it should work.  I just think it doesn't work how it was implemented. 

I think the one change to give scum and SK the option to include the survivor in their QT would have solved that problem.  Because then it is mafia giving the survivor the information.  I mean, you basically sent silverspawn a PM saying "here is the list of scum and their qt.  Here is the SK and her QT.  Everyone else is town.  Figure out how to win."

No one should have full information about the setup.  Even a survivor.  And that is what silverspawn had.  Sure, he didn't know the PRs and all, but he knew everything else.

[Jan]

I don't know about this game.

I was fairly certain that Silver and E were not town d1, but there was no chance to get either of them lynched in the history of ever.

Silver being able to coordinate with 5 other non town on d1 made it 6 vs 10.

And you will almost never get all town to agree on something d1 without having a hard case (and my reasoning for scumreading e was solid because what i called him out on was real, people just didn't care to see it).

Sure town got unlucky with losing that many prs early on, but normally town should have around 50-60% win chance in a game like this. 25% scum and 10-15% SK .. silver wins with either which gives him the easiest easymode. That is balance in a way that i am used to normally at least.

Silvers role was fun on paper but maybe not balanced when given to a player that apparently noone wants to lynch even when they do not play towny.
A good town vig would have changed the game i guess. (not that he was bad, he just died n1 which is the worst outcome).
A good hero shot on a deep wolf or silver and town is likely to win the game.


Funny enough i actually reread liopoils d1 half was through d2 and thought to myself "why did you ever scumread that guy", that is when i randomly changed my read d2. I did the same with e and just thought "yeah that guy is just scum".

Anyways gg. not sure who played well this game, all the scum that died died to silver and fonti having perfect information. but i would not say that they played execptionally well.
It was well orchestrated which is what moriarty would have done. the role was fitting well with the character, we just had a lack of sherlock holmes this game.

rr and liopoil projected town well (haddock too, i think). ww and teproc before were really hard deep cover wolves. esp ww put a lot of legwork in his play to be towny. sadly no chance if the sk knows who you are anyway.

[silverspawn]

but normally town should have around 50-60% win chance in a game like this. 25% scum and 10-15% SK

err, what? We balance games to have equal win % for all factions. 33% for town, 33% for mafia, 33% for the SK, and even 33% for me.

Why would you ever have over 50% for one faction? 

[Jan]

I think the one change to give scum and SK the option to include the survivor in their QT would have solved that problem.  Because then it is mafia giving the survivor the information.  I mean, you basically sent silverspawn a PM saying "here is the list of scum and their qt.  Here is the SK and her QT.  Everyone else is town.  Figure out how to win."

from the scum qt :
"A player that is not part of your faction is able to read and post in this QT, under the pseudonym "Moriarty". If the majority of living mafia members decides to deny Moriarty access to your QT, another QT will be created in which only your faction can post and read. This decision is irreversible once made, and you will no longer be able to post here."

you had the chance .. he just knew your identities at the point which means you can never lynch him or he might out you.

[Roadrunner7671]

I feel a little better. Lynching ss would've been much better, lynching WW might've not been suicide. But bad stuff all around.

[Jan]

but normally town should have around 50-60% win chance in a game like this. 25% scum and 10-15% SK

err, what? We balance games to have equal win % for all factions. 33% for town, 33% for mafia, 33% for the SK, and even 33% for me.

Why would you ever have over 50% for one faction? 

i think 33% winchance for the sk is a bit much normally. winning as sk is hard because if someone gets on your track early on you just lose unless you outplay them (which is not easy).
You balance games for your community anyway. better (town-)players need a game that is way higher stacked against town, while bad players need more misslynches. That is why there are around 10 misslynches for every champs game and town still can't win 90% of the time.

i think towns win chances this game were way lower than 33% because of your role silver. unless you or the sk die early on town has close to no chance of winning just because the numbers are a big problem.
teproc being redchecked d2 and no one recognizing it was kinda funny. reggies interaction with seprix just looked way more like a green on seprix than a red on teproc (they both wanted to kill teproc which was the biggest hint on him being scum after both of them died n2).

I don't want to sound ungrateful, the game was fun. i was a bit salty when i heard about the numbers the first time, because I think it was stacked against town, but in the end all that matters is that I (or maybe we) had a good time.

GGWP. would play again.

[Jan]

I think ww had the best game.
He was fairly townread all through the game and noone that didn't have perfect information wanted to kill him.

everything else on the last day played out well because of the amount of information people had. they played it off well, but the game mechanics made it easy.

I am unsure on how silver could have lost the game. Unless he is a polarized player that can't project town for his live. he cant die during the day because he has 5 people on his side that will not dare to actually lynch him (or he just outs them all) and during the night he is bulletproof so only the sk could ever dare to pop him (he would know if mafia target him in the night since they share a chat).

[silverspawn]

I'm not saying the game was balanced. I'm saying that 33/33/33 (or 50/50) is the goal-- that we have on this site. Balance on this site, as I understand it, means equal win% for all factions. Otherwise, I would consider it unbalanced.

You balance games for your community anyway. better (town-)players need a game that is way higher stacked against town, while bad players need more misslynches. That is why there are around 10 misslynches for every champs game and town still can't win 90% of the time.

Ahm, what? So are you saying town plays worse on this site than on other sites? Or better? And that changes the balance significantly?

I doubt that skill has more than a negligible effect on balance. The champion site plays setups that could easily be hosted here. I actually think if the skill is higher, scum will be harder to track down.

[ashersky]

@silverspawn: did you make an actual decision to win with the SK or did you think you could still win with scum?

Well, both. I decided to try to win with the SK early on, but if she had died unexpectedly, sure I would've won with scum. In the end, the SK thing seemed easily possible, so I went with that.

And why on earth redirect haddock and not font?

Er... why would I redirect font?

I chose haddock for the vague possibility that he's a doctor or vig.

Can someone remind me who it was that swore up and down on all things sacred that if they were ever to roll Survivor, they would 100% always play to win with town and no one else?