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[silverspawn]

Destiny talks with a trans person: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW9sC56x8IU

It's interesting because the trans person is less pro trans than destiny in this discussion, and also because she talks about most trans women not passing while she totally passes. Best discussion on trans stuff I've seen, not that this bar is very high.

[silverspawn]

Like it's actually two intelligent people talking about the issue rather than virtue signaling.

[faust]

Destiny talks with a trans person: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW9sC56x8IU

It's interesting because the trans person is less pro trans than destiny in this discussion, and also because she talks about most trans women not passing while she totally passes. Best discussion on trans stuff I've seen, not that this bar is very high.

It's not an encouraging sign if this discussion passes as "best discussion on trans stuff". I'm also confused about the idea that Destiny is more more trans in this. He's the one who talks about "fake trans people", disparages "non-binary women" and says we shouldn't respect pronouns.

taftaj in this discussion just strikes me as someone who projects her own issues onto everyone. Multiple times she brings up studies that are done and then dismisses them because they do not fit with her personal experience. Well, in fairness, this is coupled with the argument that there's not enough data and stuff like puberty blockers is too new to know the long-term effects.

So like, if you want to keep the company of anti-vaxxers and anti-GMO people, I guess this makes for a good argument? Puberty blockers have existed for 40 years.

There is other annoying shit, like in the beginning the two pretty much work on the assumption that being trans is the same as experiencing gender dyphoria, which seems dangerously close to labeling transness as a mental illness. At one particular funny moment Destiny wonders whether taftaj experiences gender dysphoria or the dysmorphia of a cis woman, as if these were two different things.

Overall I feel like Destiny's argument lacks any consistency. The first time he brings up pronouns all I could think was "okay, so if people should just guess pronouns, does that mean they should also just guess names? And if they choose the right name, then that's great because self-perception and external perception line up?" Later Destiny indeed brings up names and says that they're different to pronouns because... no reason given.

At least Destiny namedrops Contrapoints. For good takes on trans issues, this is the source I recommend.

[faust]

Like it's actually two intelligent people talking about the issue rather than virtue signaling.

Also I feel like we had this discussion before, but of course anyone who discusses stuff on a public platform virtue signals. Destiny and taftaj just signal different virtues than people who are more pro-trans.

[silverspawn]

and says we shouldn't respect pronouns.

Destiny did not say that we should disrespect pronouns, he said that the culture of having pronouns was a mistake because it prevents the feedback signal to trans people. That's unrelated to the question of whether we should respect pronouns if people do request them.

[silverspawn]

Like it's actually two intelligent people talking about the issue rather than virtue signaling.

Also I feel like we had this discussion before, but of course anyone who discusses stuff on a public platform virtue signals. Destiny and taftaj just signal different virtues than people who are more pro-trans.

Oh no, you cannot sell this kind of signal relativism to the most signal sensitive person on earth. It is absolutely not the case that everyone signals equally, or that the degree to which people signal (virtue or otherwise) depends only on the size of their platform. You can have a small platform and operate entirely on signaling, or a large platform and be entire genuine. (I don't recall this having come up before.) I didn't detect any signaling in this conversation.

[faust]

and says we shouldn't respect pronouns.

Destiny did not say that we should disrespect pronouns, he said that the culture of having pronouns was a mistake because it prevents the feedback signal to trans people. That's unrelated to the question of whether we should respect pronouns if people do request them.

Well around 35:30 taftaj says "when you use a pronoun [...] you respect that person's agency" and Destiny reacts with "I reject that". For me that signals pretty clearly that Destiny doesn't think that there is a reason to respect pronouns.

[faust]

Like it's actually two intelligent people talking about the issue rather than virtue signaling.

Also I feel like we had this discussion before, but of course anyone who discusses stuff on a public platform virtue signals. Destiny and taftaj just signal different virtues than people who are more pro-trans.

Oh no, you cannot sell this kind of signal relativism to the most signal sensitive person on earth. It is absolutely not the case that everyone signals equally, or that the degree to which people signal (virtue or otherwise) depends only on the size of their platform. You can have a small platform and operate entirely on signaling, or a large platform and be entire genuine. (I don't recall this having come up before.) I didn't detect any signaling in this conversation.

Well I made no statement about the extent. But phrases like "fake trans people" or the rejection of pronouns are clear virtue signals towards transphobes to me.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. What I mainly want to reject is that the mere presence of virtue signaling is a reason to dismiss an argument. Of course if there is only signaling and no argument provided, that can be criticized. But I'd like to see some evidence of this happening on a large scale before I can take it seriously.

[silverspawn]

Like it's actually two intelligent people talking about the issue rather than virtue signaling.

Also I feel like we had this discussion before, but of course anyone who discusses stuff on a public platform virtue signals. Destiny and taftaj just signal different virtues than people who are more pro-trans.

Oh no, you cannot sell this kind of signal relativism to the most signal sensitive person on earth. It is absolutely not the case that everyone signals equally, or that the degree to which people signal (virtue or otherwise) depends only on the size of their platform. You can have a small platform and operate entirely on signaling, or a large platform and be entire genuine. (I don't recall this having come up before.) I didn't detect any signaling in this conversation.

Well I made no statement about the extent. But phrases like "fake trans people" or the rejection of pronouns are clear virtue signals towards transphobes to me.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. What I mainly want to reject is that the mere presence of virtue signaling is a reason to dismiss an argument. Of course if there is only signaling and no argument provided, that can be criticized. But I'd like to see some evidence of this happening on a large scale before I can take it seriously.

Ok that's fine

[silverspawn]

and says we shouldn't respect pronouns.

Destiny did not say that we should disrespect pronouns, he said that the culture of having pronouns was a mistake because it prevents the feedback signal to trans people. That's unrelated to the question of whether we should respect pronouns if people do request them.

Well around 35:30 taftaj says "when you use a pronoun [...] you respect that person's agency" and Destiny reacts with "I reject that". For me that signals pretty clearly that Destiny doesn't think that there is a reason to respect pronouns.

Isn't this falsified by him in fact respecting pronouns all the time even for people who don't pass and who are actively talking shit on him?

My interpretation of that particular back and forth is that Destiny was misinterpreting the statement as being about what trans people want out of pronouns. Like he's saying that people who want to be referred to as she even though they're male assigned at birth aren't looking for others to show them respect, but for others to make them feel like their preferred gender.

Because otherwise what he's saying doesn't make any sense. It's clearly the case that using the preferred gender for someone who doesn't pass is a gesture of nice-ity, it can't be anything else. And the example he gives right afterward is also about that; it's about what trans people want, not what others are doing.

I grant you that my reading is more complicated, but again I don't see how you can interpret it differently because the literal interpretation is demonstrably false and also doesn't fit anything he says right after that.

[silverspawn]

The unspoken thing here is that I feel like you're doing this purity test thing where you're taking someone who's arguably done a ton for trans rights but is in fact center left rather than radically left on the isssue, and then you're looking for the one thing in the video that sounds worst, and you're using it to villify him even though the interpretation isn't even plausible. Like I said I grant you that it's plausible on first listen, but really only on first listen.

[silverspawn]

Somewhat separately, I think the point about what trans people want is probably true in most cases. At least if someone in fact has gender dysphoria, presumably all they want to be is the opposite gender; that's the entire point. Their brain isn't torturing them over not being respected, it's torturing them over feeling like they are the wrong gender.

[faust]

The unspoken thing here is that I feel like you're doing this purity test thing where you're taking someone who's arguably done a ton for trans rights but is in fact center left rather than radically left on the isssue, and then you're looking for the one thing in the video that sounds worst, and you're using it to villify him even though the interpretation isn't even plausible. Like I said I grant you that it's plausible on first listen, but really only on first listen.

I have, in fact, not looked for one thing. If you look at my original response, you will see that I mentioned multiple things, and I feel like those pretty much cover the entirety of the conversation. (I did not talk much about this whole thing about "should trans people try to pass", but that was mostly taftaj talking and I didn't have any particular issue there.)

On the contrary, it was you who picked out a single thing from my reaction that you felt like you had the strongest grounds arguing against.

[faust]

Because otherwise what he's saying doesn't make any sense. It's clearly the case that using the preferred gender for someone who doesn't pass is a gesture of nice-ity, it can't be anything else. And the example he gives right afterward is also about that; it's about what trans people want, not what others are doing.

I agree that what he's saying doesn't make sense. I don't really see this other way of interpreting things. If someone thinks a) some trans people are "fake", b) self-ID isn't a valid way to determine who is what gender, and c) pronouns shouldn't be just used out of respect, then I fail to see how one could reach another conclusion.

If Destiny uses the correct pronouns usually (I don't know, but I trust you on this), that doesn't falsify anything, it merely reveals an inconsistency in his thinking and acting.

[Awaclus]

The unspoken thing here is that I feel like you're doing this purity test thing where you're taking someone who's arguably done a ton for trans rights but is in fact center left rather than radically left on the isssue, and then you're looking for the one thing in the video that sounds worst, and you're using it to villify him even though the interpretation isn't even plausible. Like I said I grant you that it's plausible on first listen, but really only on first listen.

I don't think it makes all that much sense for someone to be "left" or "right" on trans rights, besides the question of how much, in what ways and under what circumstances the government should subsidize medical treatments for trans people.

[Awaclus]

the assumption that being trans is the same as experiencing gender dyphoria, which seems dangerously close to labeling transness as a mental illness.

Isn't the reason why this is dangerous not that it's false, but that it's easier to convince people that a particular thing we don't want them to stigmatize isn't a mental illness than it is to convince them to stop stigmatizing mental illnesses?

[faust]

the assumption that being trans is the same as experiencing gender dyphoria, which seems dangerously close to labeling transness as a mental illness.

Isn't the reason why this is dangerous not that it's false, but that it's easier to convince people that a particular thing we don't want them to stigmatize isn't a mental illness than it is to convince them to stop stigmatizing mental illnesses?

I mean, it's a perspective thing to some extent. But illness always carries this notion of "something is wrong here" and that it should be treated to go away. Even in a world where mental illness is not stigmatized I think it's still bad to say "being gay is being sick" or "neurodivergent people are diseased", and the same holds for trans people.

Also the corollary is often "if you don't suffer, you are not trans". Gender dysphoria is correlated to being trans but the two things definitely are not the same; there are cis people with gender dysphoria and there are trans people without it.

[Awaclus]

I mean, it's a perspective thing to some extent. But illness always carries this notion of "something is wrong here" and that it should be treated to go away. Even in a world where mental illness is not stigmatized I think it's still bad to say "being gay is being sick" or "neurodivergent people are diseased", and the same holds for trans people.

Transitioning is literally treating the something that is wrong to get it to go away. Being gay and some types of neurodivergence (e.g. "high functioning" autism where you don't particularly struggle with social situations etc) are categorically different from things like gender dysphoria and ADHD that actually make it harder or less pleasant to live. I don't think it should be illegal to transition without a medical reason and I don't think people should be ostracized for doing so either, but we obviously shouldn't think of these people and people who transition to treat their gender dysphoria as two slightly different variations of mostly the same thing — just like we have clearly separate categories for people with ADHD and people who use ADHD meds recreationally.

[faust]

I don't see the difference in category. An ADHD diagnosis is awarded (simplifying here) if you score high enough on some standardized test. If you are just under that threshold and decide to self-medicate, are you using ADHD meds "recreationally"? If not, where is the cutoff?

There isn't a categorical difference. It's a spectrum.

Gender dysphoria is the same. What amount of wanting to change your body to better fit into gender norms is enough in order to be sick? That always changes over time. And also of course, there are trans people that do not transition medically at all, that have no wish to transition, what about them?

[silverspawn]

On the contrary, it was you who picked out a single thing from my reaction that you felt like you had the strongest grounds arguing against.

I can say with certainty that this isn't true; I responded to this point because that's the only point you provided a time stamp for.

Anyway I'm pretty interested in discussing this further. So you think that Destiny thinks that

a) some trans people are "fake", b) self-ID isn't a valid way to determine who is what gender, and c) pronouns shouldn't be just used out of respect, then I fail to see how one could reach another conclusion.

I'm almost certain that (c) is false. So I guess that means it's upon me to provide time stamps. So I'll go through the video again and look at which parts provide evidence for (c). If we can eventually agree on whether or not Destiny expressed (c) in this video, I'll count that as a major success. (I can't say (a)  and (b) are false because they don't seem to be statements with truth values, but I'll for them as evidence for (c).)

[silverspawn]

... or maybe this isn't possible because Destiny very clearly says (a) and (b) (that's in the first 10 minutes of the video), and I guess this makes him evil and now (c) follows by necessity.

Ok, let's try something else. This is also a less masculine debating style! Do you think it's possible that a lot of people with gender dysphoria think (a) and (b)? I.e., their brain tortures them for being, say, assigned male at birth, they've gone through great efforts to be perceived as female, they probably don't pass (because most trans people don't pass*), they get into the online spaces where people say it's not about that but just about whatever you identify as, they see other people claiming they're trans even though they don't have gender dysphoria, and they just think that's all BS and those people are in it for the attention and hence are fake trans, and we should reserve the description for people who in fact do have dysphoria and have gone through significant efforts to transition?

Note that I'm not asking whether you think this is true, just whether it could be the case that a lot of trans people think this, and they are the reason why destiny says (a) and (b).

*according to Taftaj

[silverspawn]

Gender dysphoria is the same.

Citation needed! I mean sure it's a theoretical spectrum, as in, you can find at least one person who has a small desire to change their gender. The question is whether the graph looks like this



or like this



where the x-axis is the amount that your brain tortures you and the y-axis is the amount of people with that amount of torture from their brain. In the first case, gender dysphoria is a relatively binary thing, even though it's still a spectrum in some sense. It's basically as much of a binary as almost any psychological condition gets. In the second case, it's a spectrum. I do not think it's obvious that the second graph is correct. (I also don't think it's obvious that the first graph is correct.)

[silverspawn]

I mean, it's a perspective thing to some extent. But illness always carries this notion of "something is wrong here" and that it should be treated to go away. Even in a world where mental illness is not stigmatized I think it's still bad to say "being gay is being sick" or "neurodivergent people are diseased", and the same holds for trans people.

If a gay person could press a button and make themselves not-gay, I think most of them wouldn't do that. Certainly I don't think bisexual women would press that button to like men only. But if a person with gender dysphoria could press the button to get rid of their dysphoria, they probably would. So these two things are different in one very important property, which is whether the thing is bad.

[Awaclus]

I don't see the difference in category. An ADHD diagnosis is awarded (simplifying here) if you score high enough on some standardized test. If you are just under that threshold and decide to self-medicate, are you using ADHD meds "recreationally"? If not, where is the cutoff?

The cutoff is between where you are and aren't using it to medicate, self- or otherwise.

Gender dysphoria is the same. What amount of wanting to change your body to better fit into gender norms is enough in order to be sick?

The amount where not changing it causes you to have problems that most people don't have.

And also of course, there are trans people that do not transition medically at all, that have no wish to transition, what about them?

Nothing in particular. Many people have treatable medical problems that they choose to live with instead.

[faust]

I can say with certainty that this isn't true; I responded to this point because that's the only point you provided a time stamp for.

Well this is demonstrably false; your first response predates my giving a timestamp.

Do you think it's possible that a lot of people with gender dysphoria think (a) and (b)?

I mean, for some values of "a lot". If you put them all in one place, it would probably be a big crowd. Lots of people with gender dysphoria are also cis, and these ideas are pretty mainstream in such circles, but that is I imagine not what you mean.

Does a majority of trans people with gender dysphoria think that? I strongly doubt it.

If a gay person could press a button and make themselves not-gay, I think most of them wouldn't do that. Certainly I don't think bisexual women would press that button to like men only. But if a person with gender dysphoria could press the button to get rid of their dysphoria, they probably would. So these two things are different in one very important property, which is whether the thing is bad.

Again, I say "trans", and you substitute "gender dysphoric", as if these are the same thing. Most gay people in the 50s would probably have pressed a button to make themselves not-gay, so was being gay a sickness in the 50s?