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Author Topic: The Necro Wars  (Read 346266 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5375 on: April 14, 2023, 03:56:17 am »

Have you seen the extended versions?

no

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5376 on: April 14, 2023, 10:27:46 am »

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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5377 on: April 14, 2023, 04:02:26 pm »

The Lord of the Rings -- The Two Towers (extended version)

Alright so I was bothered a lot more by plot issues with this one. Possible explanations are (a) there are more problems and (b) the movie was less emotionally effective, so I paid more attention to the plot holes. I think it's both.

Unfortunately a lot of those are pretty major story elements. Like,

- Gandalf wants Theoden to fight -- why? that seems like a terrible idea that would have obviously not worked given the numbers
- Aragon stops Theodem from killing the smiley guy and theoden agrees -- why? Seems like a dumb decision and the logic makes no sense
- "We're gonna take the route that goes right next to Saruman and he won't notice us" <- this makes no sense at all
- Send out riders to get help from Gondor -- but the attack will happen at nightfall of this day, wtf?
- Frodo has an emotional moment and then Faramir lets him go, but nothing really changed for him so this makes no sense
- How would you use the ring for Gondor? What is the plan?
- Why are you taking the hobbits with you when attacking Saruman
- Anyone realize that all the fighting at Saruman's place was irrelevant after they just released the damn, that seems like a major security hole

And (again not sure why) but the dialogue also felt substantially worse, I didn't believe what I was watching a lot of the time

Then a lot builds up to the battle of helms deep, but the battle is not very good. It seemed like they actually had enough archers to have a real shot against 10k attackers, but then they get their siege weapons up way too quickly. The interjection of humor kinda takes the tension out of it. And lots of other stuff I'm skipping over here. And if you have to do the counting thing, come on 42? Legolas killed like 20 in the half a minute we were watching, including knocking over an entire massive ladder There's no way he'd have killed only 42.

I'm also really taken out of the atmosphere by every character having a perfectly stylized face in every shot. I went and looked at the Battle of the Bastards from GoT afterward to have some antidote and yeah there's a lot wrong with the battles in GoT, but you gotta appreciate that the characters look like shit after they've been battling, with dirt and blood all over their faces. I know LotR isn't trying to have a mature depiction of war and whatnot, but idk it bothers me anyway and I just noticed it much more in this one.

Also I hated the scene with Aragorn not eating the stew Éowyn made for her. You're evacuating half a country; there's no way you'd throw food away come on, it can't be that bd.

There are some moments that work fine, but nowhere near as good as in the first movie. So yeah, I don't think this movie is very good. Honestly I think it's just a 6. Entertaining and with some beautiful scenery and some good emotions, but also really stupid. I did not expect a 4 point difference between the first and second, but here we are. 6/10.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5378 on: April 14, 2023, 04:04:02 pm »

(lol the smiley guy was meant to be the slimey guy, like the one who's working for Saruman)

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5379 on: April 14, 2023, 04:13:23 pm »

Really curious about the final movie now, but I think that one was better than the second, so I have some hope

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5380 on: April 14, 2023, 04:15:05 pm »

I really don't think that I would have found as many issues with the first movie even if I was actively looking

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5381 on: April 14, 2023, 05:30:32 pm »

lol YMS actually thought Lem Me In was terrible and recommended the original, and I just misremembered and downloaded the "wrong" one.

I guess now I have to see the original as well to compare them.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5382 on: April 14, 2023, 07:07:23 pm »

- Gandalf wants Theoden to fight -- why? that seems like a terrible idea that would have obviously not worked given the numbers

That's exactly the point. Gandalf wanted Theoden to mobilize all of Rohan's forces, get all the help he can possibly get, destroy Saruman's army, and then get that fully mobilized Rohan army over to Minas Tirith to help Gondor defeat Sauron. Theoden wanted to do none of that and instead go sit in Helm's Deep until Saruman would give up, which was a terrible idea that came very close to losing Gandalf the entire war — had Gandalf not gone and mobilized the Rohirrim on his own without Theoden's permission and arrived on time, we would have had Saruman providing reinforcements at Minas Tirith instead of Rohan. (In the book, this played out differently and more complicatedly, but the overall point was the same: Gandalf's main objective is to win the larger scale conflict against Sauron and he's having a hard time convincing everyone else that it's the most important issue at hand and it's everyone's job to do everything in their power to help)

- Aragon stops Theodem from killing the smiley guy and theoden agrees -- why?

Because many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.

- "We're gonna take the route that goes right next to Saruman and he won't notice us" <- this makes no sense at all

Evidently it didn't have to make any sense at all, given that Treebeard immediately realized that it didn't make sense and he agreed to it anyway.

- Send out riders to get help from Gondor -- but the attack will happen at nightfall of this day, wtf?

Helm's Deep is a solid fortress, and nobody knows in advance that Saruman knows about that weak spot and has explosives (Aragorn might not even know that the weak spot exists). Sieges can take a long time.

- Frodo has an emotional moment and then Faramir lets him go, but nothing really changed for him so this makes no sense

Faramir heard from Sam that Boromir got corrupted by the Ring and then Faramir witnessed Frodo almost killing Sam because of the Ring's corruption. This made him realize that it would be a godawful idea to send the Ring to Denethor and convinced him to support the hobbits' quest to destroy it instead.

- How would you use the ring for Gondor? What is the plan?

Denethor, probably falsely, believes he is strong-willed enough to control the Ring, which would presumably at least let him bind the Ringwraiths to his will just like Sauron did, be able to dominate the wills of others to a lesser extent even if they aren't wearing any of the other Rings of Power, and achieve other kinds of superhuman feats with the Ring's power as well. It's kind of vague what exactly the Ring does in addition to mind control (magic in LOTR in general is typically not very concrete or specific), but it is even more OP than the Elven Rings of Power and those play major roles in the defense and even the very existence of Rivendell and especially Lothlorien.

- Why are you taking the hobbits with you when attacking Saruman

The hobbits were with him, what was he supposed to do?

- Anyone realize that all the fighting at Saruman's place was irrelevant after they just released the damn, that seems like a major security hole

I mean, they released the dam basically as soon as they got there, it's not like there was a long fight. Or really much of a fight at all, which makes sense because Saruman's army was elsewhere.
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faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5383 on: April 15, 2023, 05:00:35 am »

Lindsay Ellis has a neat analysis of the trilogy that I would recommend here, except it's only available on Nebula unfortunately.

Anyways she agrees that Two Towers is the worst of the three.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5384 on: April 15, 2023, 05:48:54 am »

destroy Saruman's army

But they barely beat it with massive defender's advantage. How would they have had a chance in an open field?

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5385 on: April 15, 2023, 06:37:39 am »

destroy Saruman's army

But they barely beat it with massive defender's advantage. How would they have had a chance in an open field?
One might argue their strength is on horseback, and they have a better chance of playing that out in an open field.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5386 on: April 15, 2023, 06:50:37 am »

destroy Saruman's army

But they barely beat it with massive defender's advantage. How would they have had a chance in an open field?

By doing the part you left out from the quote:

mobilize all of Rohan's forces, get all the help he can possibly get
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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5387 on: April 15, 2023, 07:01:31 am »

To be clear, Gandalf's objection is not to fighting by taking a defensive position in a fortress. Gandalf's objection is to refusing to mobilize your own troops, refusing to ask allies for help, and retreating to a fortress in hopes of avoiding the whole fight altogether, which is what Theoden's plan was.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5388 on: April 15, 2023, 10:59:40 am »

Let The Right One In (2008)

tl;dr 4/10 I think the remake is much, much better and wouldn't recommend this one to anyone.

So the remake is actually very close, in the sense that a lot of the scenes are ostensibly the same and even a lot of the dialogue is identical. Nonetheless, I think the remake is going for something completely different. First of all, while Wikipedia calls the original a horror movie, I don't really agree. It's more of a drama. You're meant to take it seriously -- the boy is a real character (and kind of a sadist), the vampire girl genuinely wants his help, and she's humanized; she's shown feeling guilt about what she's done. So ultimately, I think that's a pretty easy to interpret story, as Awaclus said, and I don't find the story that interesting.

Also, I feel like some of the shots are actively gross, like showing the severed limb or the half burnt face in detail, and I feel like that's cheap. It's very easy to make me feel uncomfortable that way; you can just show me a normal operation and I'll be extremely uncomfortable. I really don't respect it. So imo the horror elements are actively bad.

In the remake, the dynamic is completely different. The boy is just a normal boy, he has no sadistic part. And yeah I guess that makes him a less interesting character, but he's not supposed to be interesting bc the remake isn't going for a drama. The point is that you sort of expect the script to adjust to him being a boy -- like you know, how the universe works differently when the main character is a child -- and also there's an obvious parallel to Twilight. And then instead the boy ends up having zero agency as the girl goes around murdering people.

I'm much more confident in that reading bc if you view them side by side, the changes are clearly deliberate. E.g.,

- In the original, her caretaker intentionally plugs out his oxygen thing, committing himself to death (unless I was wrong about what that does). In the remake, he does offer her his neck, but then she says "I'm sorry" and kills him, so I think he didn't want to die there

- In the original, the boy taunts the girl to go in uninvited. In the remake, she goes in willingly, which makes the scene completely different. It's a power move. She does it bc she knows what'll happen and presumably she gets enjoyment out of scaring him.

- In the original, in the scene where a man goes into her house, it's because he's already seen her and he intends to murder her. Than the boy pulls out a knife, clearly intending to kill the guy -- this then doesn't end up happening, but he still saves her, and she thanks him for it. In the remake, the man is a police guy investigating, she arguably didn't need to kill him, and after she does, she doesn't say thanks and instead hugs the boy from behind, which -- again, I think it's a power play. She knows she can murder someone in front of him and he'll still like her.

- In the original, when she tells him to defend himself against the bullies, she's not appealing to some sadistic part of him; she's just toying with him because well he likes her and he doesn't want to get bullied. And -- unlike in the original -- he almost kills the bully by following her advice.

On net, she never shows any weakness, humanity, or regret in the remake. And imo that makes it a much better story. It's kinda genius how you could keep so much and yet change the overall product so drastically. And again, look at the name. "Let Me In" is from the perspective of the vampire; that's not a coincidence. And look at the ending, the "eat some now, safe some for later" thing the movie ends on is not in the original, and it suggests that she could choose to just kill the boy whenever she gets bored of him.

I still don't entirely understand the purpose of the girl being trans in the original. (And it's confirmed; we get a shot of her genitals.) In the remake, we don't get that (which is also more tasteful btw, I mean cmon) and when he asks her whether she'll be his girlfriend, she says "I'm not a girl", when he asks "what are you" she says "I'm nothing". I think it's more that she's a vampire and hence not a human. But idk. I feel like that doesn't have a place in the remake, but they had to keep it because it'd be too big of a change, so they made it ambiguous.

Anyways the take that the remake just butchered the original by removing all subtlety is uh a really terrible take. Mb YMS just viewed it as trying to do the same thing as the original, and yeah it does a much worse job at doing the same thing. But what it does is so much better.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5389 on: April 15, 2023, 09:09:35 pm »

The Lord of the Rings -- The Two Towers (extended version)
- "We're gonna take the route that goes right next to Saruman and he won't notice us" <- this makes no sense at all

I thought the point of this was the hobbit wanted Treebeard to see what Saruman was doing, which made some sense and worked very effectively?
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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5390 on: April 16, 2023, 03:31:44 am »

hey, friends! I thought I'd post here. I will be in Berlin 5-8 of June, do you want to meet, play some games (including chess) and whatnot?
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5391 on: April 16, 2023, 09:00:55 am »

I actually thought you were dead for a while!

Another trip to Berlin? Hm idk maybe

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5392 on: April 16, 2023, 10:40:49 am »

The Lord of the Rings -- The Two Towers (extended version)
- "We're gonna take the route that goes right next to Saruman and he won't notice us" <- this makes no sense at all

I thought the point of this was the hobbit wanted Treebeard to see what Saruman was doing, which made some sense and worked very effectively?

That would make sense! I didn't interpret it that way though.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5393 on: April 16, 2023, 10:48:00 am »

I actually thought you were dead for a while!

Another trip to Berlin? Hm idk maybe

faust, Awaclus, anyone else?

Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5394 on: April 16, 2023, 01:24:57 pm »

Man, it's a tempting suggestion, but pragmatically speaking I'd probably have to have a full-time job before it'd actually be a good idea from a financial perspective to travel to Berlin. I do have plans to go on a vacation in mainland Europe some time within like this decade or so though, so perhaps we can eventually make something work.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5395 on: April 16, 2023, 01:49:17 pm »

The Lord of the Rings -- The Two Towers (extended version)
- "We're gonna take the route that goes right next to Saruman and he won't notice us" <- this makes no sense at all

I thought the point of this was the hobbit wanted Treebeard to see what Saruman was doing, which made some sense and worked very effectively?

That would make sense! I didn't interpret it that way though.

Wtf, was that not obvious? That entire arc is all about Merry and Pippin trying to get the Ents to join the war, it would be stupid for it to be any other way.
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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5396 on: April 16, 2023, 02:01:51 pm »

I actually thought you were dead for a while!

Another trip to Berlin? Hm idk maybe

oh i was

good, i'll write here closer to the date
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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5397 on: April 16, 2023, 05:43:15 pm »

The Lord of the Rings -- The Two Towers (extended version)
- "We're gonna take the route that goes right next to Saruman and he won't notice us" <- this makes no sense at all

I thought the point of this was the hobbit wanted Treebeard to see what Saruman was doing, which made some sense and worked very effectively?

That would make sense! I didn't interpret it that way though.

Wtf, was that not obvious? That entire arc is all about Merry and Pippin trying to get the Ents to join the war, it would be stupid for it to be any other way.

I know, but the way the scene played out didn't make me feel like that's what was happening

Ditto with the Faramir ring thing -- your explanation is really good, but the way the scene is shown doesn't fit. (He says "now we understand each other" and not "now I understand how dangerous the ring is")

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5398 on: April 17, 2023, 02:36:02 am »

I actually thought you were dead for a while!

Another trip to Berlin? Hm idk maybe

faust, Awaclus, anyone else?
I'm definitely up for it! I mean I'm here anyways. It is during the week on lecture times though, so my availability is likely limited to the evenings.
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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #5399 on: April 17, 2023, 04:12:19 am »

(He says "now we understand each other" and not "now I understand how dangerous the ring is")

He's saying it to signal they're on the same side, rather than to convey some specific fact about his state of mind. It's not just that he now understands that the hobbits have to destroy the Ring (that was explained to him previously and he knew Boromir was on board with that, so he probably already understood that to begin with), but also that he has decided to stop acting in the way the hobbits couldn't understand because they weren't aware of the drama between him and Denethor, which was the reason why he was doing it.
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