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[silverspawn]

This reminds me. There was this discussion about the play that Rowling wrote instead of an eight book, 'The cursed child' I believe I did not watch it. If I remember correctly, I complained in the forum about Hermione being cast by a black person and a bunch of people said that this was racist. I feel like going back there now.

I think the main issue, as it so often is, was that no-one specified what question is being debated. As far as whether or not it was a good casting choice, at this point my probability distribution puts significant weight on 'this was the only right thing to do from a utilitarian perspective, and anything else is passing on an opportunity to create a uniquely meaningful empowering symbol'. I also certainly don't think it was done cynically. Most likely Rowling's intentions were pure. And I'm genuinely unsure about how strong of an effect it has.

What annoyed me back then and still annoys me now is her saying on twitter 'being white was never specified' for hermione. Aside from this being like 70% untrue because harry could see her 'white face from behind a tree' or something (( I precisely know where this scene is the German book and even have clips of the audio book in my head, that's how often I've listened to them )), the idea that she thought of her as black from the beginning is just such utter bullshit. If would be cool if she had, but she hasn't. I don't want people to lie. Sam Harris talks about this; you can get by without lying almost all of the time.

What she should have done imo is to just tell the truth: "I created this famous story with three white main character because [whatever the real reason is], but I think it's more powerful to re-imagine it this way, and it doesn't contradict canon too much so you don't get to complain". I would give her so much credit if she had done that. If the problem is that we default to white-male-main-character-with-close-friends-white-and-at-least-half-male, then admitting that you did that and want to change seems to me like a more powerful message than pretending like you intended this in the first place but decided to never provide evidence for it anywhere.

Then of course it's possible to think her twitter post was good for strategic reasons while admitting that it's dishonest. Maybe she thought she had to lie because it won't seem as real if she admits she thought of Hermione differently. I don't really think that's true, though it's possible. But in any case, doubting that it's dishonest is ridiculous. And actually I remember talking to Space about this, who takes this kind of stuff very seriously. They argued for the utilitarian effect but admitted immediately that Rowling didn't think of her as black while writing the books.

Anyone feel free to debate me on this take.

[silverspawn]

Also I want to point out that the idea that you can't have personal preferences is bullshit. I am so so far away from not caring about whether art skews male or female; I've just never gotten into trouble for this because my preference goes into the socially acceptable direction. But if I did prefer male main characters/symbols/vocals (ew)/pronouns/fonts, then this seems like obviously a preference I should be allowed to have. Whether I should voice it is a different question. Again it just matters what exactly is being debated.

[silverspawn]

PS to the previous point, it's also a self-defeating argument. There is obviously a massive historical asymmetry in what kinds of characters are cast in what roles in stories. Alas, if the most famous children's book of all time, written in 1994, did in fact have a black character in its main cast, then it would appear that we've already overcome this to a significant extent. But of course we haven't (not in 1994, anyway). To the extent that Rowling was affected by this historical bias, that's the problem we're trying to solve. You don't solve a problem by pretending it's not there.

This is the point Stuart Russel always makes about AGI risk: the first  step toward making AGI safe is to acknowledge that there are, in fact, risks.

[silverspawn]

alas we're probably going to fail in making AGI safe even if we acknowledge it's not safe by default

[faust]

Anyone feel free to debate me on this take.

Not sure what the take is.

It shouldn't matter if a character that is white in the source material is cast as non-white, unless the whiteness of that character is crucial for the plot/character development (e.g. it would be a bit strange to cast a black person as a KKK member). It doesn't matter for the story of Harry Potter whether Hermoine is white or non-white; if anything casting her non-white kind of fits the fact that she is subjected to racist abuse as a "mudblood" in the story.

I don't particularly care what Rowling says about how she imagined Hermoine.

I don't think it's beneficial to make a big deal about one's personal preferences insofar as they might have a negative impact on minority groups.

[silverspawn]

I think this does not contain any disagreement with what I said. (Agree it doesn't matter for the story -- actually kind of fits  because of the blood thing -- which is one reason why she could have just been honest.)

I think I was mostly trying to collect data about the extent to which people will have issues with my current honest takes on issues like this

[Awaclus]

The moral of the story is mostly just that nobody cares about stage plays enough to even understand that they aren't movies, and that includes JK apparently. It's a more abstract form of art and the point isn't what you look like, it's how you act. If a bunch of black people in Ethiopia performed Romeo and Juliet, that wouldn't make the characters black Ethiopians in their version.

As far as making the character itself black is concerned, in my opinion that's detrimental to the antiracist allegory because clearly Hermione wasn't written to be someone who has experienced racism in the muggle world. If you're going to make a point about how racism is bad with an allegory, you probably shouldn't also have an actual black character and portray her and her family as though they were completely unaffected by the racism that definitely would have been going on in the UK around that time.

And looking at it from a "black representation" angle (which personally I don't really get since I mostly consume fiction with characters that don't represent me very much, and even if you care about being represented in the fiction you consume, really the problem isn't that there aren't black characters in works of fiction but that you personally choose not to consume those works — but I digress), you could argue that it's not good enough for the work to have antiracist social commentary because while that might help the white kids be less racist, it's not going to have black characters for black kids to identify with. And well, from that perspective, it doesn't really help that out of all of the characters JK could have chosen, it's the one that has to endure the allegorical racist abuse in the books.

[Awaclus]

But for example, my impression from hearing top chess/primsata/dominion players talk is that they are altogether much smarter (using that as a name for overall sanity level, not IQ) than the average person, and that doesn't seem particularly true for say football (meaning soccer).

Do you know cooledcannon, and if so, do you feel like he talks like he's much smarter than the average person, especially in terms of overall sanity level?

[silverspawn]

Do you know cooledcannon

no

[silverspawn]

And looking at it from a "black representation" angle (which personally I don't really get since I mostly consume fiction with characters that don't represent me very much, and even if you care about being represented in the fiction you consume, really the problem isn't that there aren't black characters in works of fiction but that you personally choose not to consume those works — but I digress), you could argue that it's not good enough for the work to have antiracist social commentary because while that might help the white kids be less racist, it's not going to have black characters for black kids to identify with. And well, from that perspective, it doesn't really help that out of all of the characters JK could have chosen, it's the one that has to endure the allegorical racist abuse in the books.

My take is mostly that I don't have a gears model of why character representation matters at all because I don't care about it (but that doesn't mean others don't), so I just work on the policy level. (For those not familiar with this distinction, gears level means you understand the mechanics of an issue, like the gears in a machine, and policy level means you just know what people are saying about it.) People tell me it matters, and I don't have a reason to doubt that, so I take them by their word, or at least give it a significant chance of being true.

[silverspawn]

As far as making the character itself black is concerned, in my opinion that's detrimental to the antiracist allegory because clearly Hermione wasn't written to be someone who has experienced racism in the muggle world. If you're going to make a point about how racism is bad with an allegory, you probably shouldn't also have an actual black character and portray her and her family as though they were completely unaffected by the racism that definitely would have been going on in the UK around that time.

But isn't this, like, way more thought than most people put into it? I could see young black girls being empowered by seeing Hermione without ever thinking through the implications.

[silverspawn]

and you can certainly count me as someone who neither understands nor cares about stage plays

[Awaclus]

Do you know cooledcannon

no

Oh. He's a top Prismata player who doesn't believe climate change or COVID-19 are real, he's also an anti-immigrant white supremacist, and a non-white immigrant himself. His nick in-game is TheTrumpWall in case you recognize him from that.

[silverspawn]

Do you know cooledcannon

no

Oh. He's a top Prismata player who doesn't believe climate change or COVID-19 are real, he's also an anti-immigrant white supremacist, and a non-white immigrant himself. His nick in-game is TheTrumpWall in case you recognize him from that.

I've more or less decided not to play dominion or prismata again ever in my life. I do remember TheTrumpWall ID from back then. He wasn't one of the very best players I believe?

But one exception doesn't really prove much of anything.

[Awaclus]

I've more or less decided not to play dominion or prismata again ever in my life. I do remember TheTrumpWall ID from back then. He wasn't one of the very best players I believe?

But one exception doesn't really prove much of anything.

He probably falls a bit short of the very highest level, but it's a tiny group of people that doesn't. He's been rated at least 2140 at some point according to his MasN Hub role.

One example proves that it's possible to be good at strategy games even if you're not particularly sane overall, and the fact that I have an example in my own social circle despite it not being very large makes me think it's probably not super rare either.

[faust]

As far as making the character itself black is concerned, in my opinion that's detrimental to the antiracist allegory because clearly Hermione wasn't written to be someone who has experienced racism in the muggle world. If you're going to make a point about how racism is bad with an allegory, you probably shouldn't also have an actual black character and portray her and her family as though they were completely unaffected by the racism that definitely would have been going on in the UK around that time.

But isn't this, like, way more thought than most people put into it? I could see young black girls being empowered by seeing Hermione without ever thinking through the implications.

It's certainly possible that most people (especially children) won't put that much thought into it., though I don't think that's easy to judge. But anyways isn't the point that as the author that is the level of thought you should put into your characters?

[silverspawn]

I certainly hope that Rowling that that far (though who knows), but it still seems coherent to think that it would be a meaningful gesture even if it doesn't make sense under close inspection

I mean, my entire point in the first post was that obviously she thought of her as white initially, so we already knew it didn't make sense in the story.

[silverspawn]

that that -> thought that

[Awaclus]

I certainly hope that Rowling that that far (though who knows), but it still seems coherent to think that it would be a meaningful gesture even if it doesn't make sense under close inspection

I mean, my entire point in the first post was that obviously she thought of her as white initially, so we already knew it didn't make sense in the story.

Rowling doesn't have a great track record of thinking things very far when it comes to how she handles race issues. For example if you consider the goblins, I doubt she intended for them to be an antisemitist caricature, but they, nonetheless, are one. Or that one time when she thought she was going to be inclusive and promote diversity by revealing that the white male villain's pet slave was an Asian woman all along. Like, she probably has one of the worst "trying to be antiracist : succeeding at it" ratios in the entire world.

And it's not just about whether or not it makes sense, but what kind of a message it sends. If you want your book to promote racial inclusivity, you shouldn't portray racial minorities thoughtlessly.

[silverspawn]

I certainly hope that Rowling that that far (though who knows), but it still seems coherent to think that it would be a meaningful gesture even if it doesn't make sense under close inspection

I mean, my entire point in the first post was that obviously she thought of her as white initially, so we already knew it didn't make sense in the story.

Rowling doesn't have a great track record of thinking things very far when it comes to how she handles race issues. For example if you consider the goblins, I doubt she intended for them to be an antisemitist caricature, but they, nonetheless, are one. Or that one time when she thought she was going to be inclusive and promote diversity by revealing that the white male villain's pet slave was an Asian woman all along. Like, she probably has one of the worst "trying to be antiracist : succeeding at it" ratios in the entire world.

And it's not just about whether or not it makes sense, but what kind of a message it sends. If you want your book to promote racial inclusivity, you shouldn't portray racial minorities thoughtlessly.

The past book 7 material is so much worse than the books that I personally don't consider them canon. Nagini being a human is really really dumb. But that's just more evidence for your point of it not being thought through. You're probably right.

[silverspawn]

I feel like a lot of people in chess at my rating show like zero respect for what the opponent is planning. I think because attacking is harder than defending, so just letting your opponent waste time calculating and then react (which takes less time) is a good strategy.

But I also feel like I'm starting to dig out of that mmr. And anyway it feels kind of insulting

[silverspawn]

primary motivation to improve is to beat these guys

[silverspawn]

It's actually like cheesing in starcraft. The definition of cheese play that I like was is that you play such that the result primarily depends on your opponent, or at least such that, if your opponent is above a certain level of skill, you will lose no matter how good you execute it. This is basically what 'ignore the attack your opponent is planning until it's imminent' is like in chess.

[silverspawn]

I've more or less decided not to play dominion or prismata again ever in my life. I do remember TheTrumpWall ID from back then. He wasn't one of the very best players I believe?

But one exception doesn't really prove much of anything.

He probably falls a bit short of the very highest level, but it's a tiny group of people that doesn't. He's been rated at least 2140 at some point according to his MasN Hub role.

One example proves that it's possible to be good at strategy games even if you're not particularly sane overall, and the fact that I have an example in my own social circle despite it not being very large makes me think it's probably not super rare either.

Delayed response: this seems like a really weak case? I think I have a sizeable number of examples across dominion, prismata, and chess. If there is one example of a vaccine denier in there, that sounds like it's way way below the baseline.

[Awaclus]

Delayed response: this seems like a really weak case? I think I have a sizeable number of examples across dominion, prismata, and chess. If there is one example of a vaccine denier in there, that sounds like it's way way below the baseline.

I don't think it really needs to be a particularly strong case. Demonstrably cooledcannon can be good at Prismata, so it shouldn't be hard to believe that Ron can be good at chess.