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[Elanchana]

I feel like there should be an article about this - probably not citing specific cards that much, but mechanics and such.

There's something to be said about doing things on your last turn that you would almost never do any other time - trashing your last key card, passing your opponent something good, buying 30 coppers, etc. And it's because you know it won't hurt if you mess up your deck, since you won't need to use it again.

Thoughts?

[Jimmmmm]

I guess this would extend to "last go through the deck" strategy?

[Limetime]

I guess this would extend to "last go through the deck" strategy?

"Last shuffle strategy" would be best I think
Depends If you are talking about gaining cards mid turn with Uni or just buying coppers last shuffle.

[Mavy2k]

A few hours ago Titandrake used his Ambassador to gain his opponent a province and then bought the last province to win.

[Joseph2302]

The strategy is to make your own shuffle luck.

[Awaclus]

There's something to be said about doing things on your last turn that you would almost never do any other time - trashing your last key card, passing your opponent something good, buying 30 coppers, etc. And it's because you know it won't hurt if you mess up your deck, since you won't need to use it again.

Thoughts?

Yes, there's something to be said. If you can get more VP immediately or very soon afterwards (for example if you have a Counting House coming up) by ruining your deck at the stage when you know you're not going to reshuffle before the game ends, do it every time.

[schadd]

you should probably trash mining villages

[iguanaiguana]

you should probably trash mining villages

deep

[Beyond Awesome]

I feel like there should be an article about this - probably not citing specific cards that much, but mechanics and such.

There's something to be said about doing things on your last turn that you would almost never do any other time - trashing your last key card, passing your opponent something good, buying 30 coppers, etc. And it's because you know it won't hurt if you mess up your deck, since you won't need to use it again.

Thoughts?

Passing a key card or buying 30 coppers could be considered trolling. I mean, there are things you should do to optimize winning towards the end. I think strategy for the final turns is something to think of. But, I don't think just "buying" 30 coppers for the hell of it really constitutes strategy.

[singletee]

I feel like there should be an article about this - probably not citing specific cards that much, but mechanics and such.

There's something to be said about doing things on your last turn that you would almost never do any other time - trashing your last key card, passing your opponent something good, buying 30 coppers, etc. And it's because you know it won't hurt if you mess up your deck, since you won't need to use it again.

Thoughts?

Passing a key card or buying 30 coppers could be considered trolling. I mean, there are things you should do to optimize winning towards the end. I think strategy for the final turns is something to think of. But, I don't think just "buying" 30 coppers for the hell of it really constitutes strategy.

Goons?

[scott_pilgrim]

I feel like there should be an article about this - probably not citing specific cards that much, but mechanics and such.

There's something to be said about doing things on your last turn that you would almost never do any other time - trashing your last key card, passing your opponent something good, buying 30 coppers, etc. And it's because you know it won't hurt if you mess up your deck, since you won't need to use it again.

Thoughts?

Passing a key card or buying 30 coppers could be considered trolling. I mean, there are things you should do to optimize winning towards the end. I think strategy for the final turns is something to think of. But, I don't think just "buying" 30 coppers for the hell of it really constitutes strategy.

I think she means doing that because there's a reason to do it.  Passing something good because it somehow gives you a forced win, or buying 30 coppers because it improves your score (90-93% of the time, this is because of a GOON/GARDEN situation).

But I also don't think there's really much to say on this topic, because usually what's happening when you do crazy stuff like that is that you're looking through all of the possible ways you can end the game, and you've found one that leads to a forced win, which means that nothing else you do matters.  It's just a matter of being aware enough to look out for those possibilities, including things you wouldn't do at any other point in the game.  I guess it's more interesting when you do stuff like that, thinking that you're on your last shuffle, but not knowing that the game will end that turn.  There is probably space to write an article about when you can be sure enough you're on your last shuffle to be willing to take those risks.

[Limetime]

I feel like there should be an article about this - probably not citing specific cards that much, but mechanics and such.

There's something to be said about doing things on your last turn that you would almost never do any other time - trashing your last key card, passing your opponent something good, buying 30 coppers, etc. And it's because you know it won't hurt if you mess up your deck, since you won't need to use it again.

Thoughts?

Passing a key card or buying 30 coppers could be considered trolling. I mean, there are things you should do to optimize winning towards the end. I think strategy for the final turns is something to think of. But, I don't think just "buying" 30 coppers for the hell of it really constitutes strategy.

I think she means doing that because there's a reason to do it.  Passing something good because it somehow gives you a forced win, or buying 30 coppers because it improves your score (90-93% of the time, this is because of a GOON_GARDEN situation).

But I also don't think there's really much to say on this topic, because usually what's happening when you do crazy stuff like that is that you're looking through all of the possible ways you can end the game, and you've found one that leads to a forced win, which means that nothing else you do matters.  It's just a matter of being aware enough to look out for those possibilities, including things you wouldn't do at any other point in the game.  I guess it's more interesting when you do stuff like that, thinking that you're on your last shuffle, but not knowing that the game will end that turn.  There is probably space to write an article about when you can be sure enough you're on your last shuffle to be willing to take those risks.

FYP to explain the joke if it wasn't obvious.

[Awaclus]

I feel like there should be an article about this - probably not citing specific cards that much, but mechanics and such.

There's something to be said about doing things on your last turn that you would almost never do any other time - trashing your last key card, passing your opponent something good, buying 30 coppers, etc. And it's because you know it won't hurt if you mess up your deck, since you won't need to use it again.

Thoughts?

Passing a key card or buying 30 coppers could be considered trolling. I mean, there are things you should do to optimize winning towards the end. I think strategy for the final turns is something to think of. But, I don't think just "buying" 30 coppers for the hell of it really constitutes strategy.

I think she means doing that because there's a reason to do it.  Passing something good because it somehow gives you a forced win, or buying 30 coppers because it improves your score (90-93% of the time, this is because of a GOON_GARDEN situation).

But I also don't think there's really much to say on this topic, because usually what's happening when you do crazy stuff like that is that you're looking through all of the possible ways you can end the game, and you've found one that leads to a forced win, which means that nothing else you do matters.  It's just a matter of being aware enough to look out for those possibilities, including things you wouldn't do at any other point in the game.  I guess it's more interesting when you do stuff like that, thinking that you're on your last shuffle, but not knowing that the game will end that turn.  There is probably space to write an article about when you can be sure enough you're on your last shuffle to be willing to take those risks.

FYP to explain the joke if it wasn't obvious.

It was.

[dedicateddan]

Final turn principles are pretty simple. Mostly comes down to asking "Can I win?"

[faust]

you should probably trash mining villages

Edge case: Vineyards.

[liopoil]

you should probably trash mining villages

Edge case: Vineyards.

That's why he said 'probably'.

[Witherweaver]

I don't often trash Provinces and Colonies, but when I do, it's during the last turn of the game.

[Titandrake]

I don't often trash Provinces and Colonies, but when I do, it's during the last turn of the game.

I mean, even as a meme this isn't that great, I Remodel/Salvage/Butcher Province into Province all the time if I want to empty the Provinces faster.

[Witherweaver]

I don't often trash Provinces and Colonies, but when I do, it's during the last turn of the game.

I mean, even as a meme this isn't that great, I Remodel/Salvage/Butcher Province into Province all the time if I want to empty the Provinces faster.

Yeah I know I just wanted to phrase it that way.  But I more often do it on the last turn than not, I think. 

Edit: I'm also thinking of a specific time I did this, where there were two Colonies left, I had Salvager, Colony, and enough money in hand to buy one Colony.  Salvaging the Colony to double Colony guaranteed the win, though the same play if there were three Colonies left could have created possible catch-up situations for my opponent. 

[Titandrake]

A few hours ago Titandrake used his Ambassador to gain his opponent a province and then bought the last province to win.

Off topic, but do you know what I want to see now? I want to see someone reveal Province to their opponent with the intention of ending on a win, then have their opponent reveal Moat to not gain a Province. It would be so beautifully silly to watch that be the correct play.

[michaeljb]

The opponent would need to reveal Moat before the Ambassador player chooses a card, so they could not even be sure they're blocking a Province.

[Dingan]

The opponent would need to reveal Moat before the Ambassador player chooses a card, so they could not even be sure they're blocking a Province.

Maybe they're doing it twice in 1 turn.  The first time you didn't reveal Moat (getting 1 Province).  Then the second time they try to do it, you realize what they're doing, and therefore reveal Moat to prevent it.

EDIT: Or maybe you just have Trader instead of     .

[singletee]

The opponent would need to reveal Moat before the Ambassador player chooses a card, so they could not even be sure they're blocking a Province.

Maybe they're doing it twice in 1 turn.  The first time you didn't reveal Moat (getting 1 Province).  Then the second time they try to do it, you realize what they're doing, and therefore reveal Moat to prevent it.

EDIT: Or maybe you just have Trader instead of     .

But why would you ever not Moat an Ambassador in 2p unless it was Golemed or Heralded into? Your opponent is going to be giving you something bad (in the sense that getting that thing will make it more likely for you to lose) every time.

[Titandrake]

The opponent would need to reveal Moat before the Ambassador player chooses a card, so they could not even be sure they're blocking a Province.

Maybe they're doing it twice in 1 turn.  The first time you didn't reveal Moat (getting 1 Province).  Then the second time they try to do it, you realize what they're doing, and therefore reveal Moat to prevent it.

EDIT: Or maybe you just have Trader instead of     .

But why would you ever not Moat an Ambassador in 2p unless it was Golemed or Heralded into? Your opponent is going to be giving you something bad (in the sense that getting that thing will make it more likely for you to lose) every time.

Yeah, nevermind this scenario doesn't work.

[arcee]

It works fine if they needed to pass 2 and you somehow read it correctly from the Moat seat.  (Then on your own turn you can get the last province and the extra duchy points or whatever).

[pst]

But why would you ever not Moat an Ambassador in 2p unless it was Golemed or Heralded into? Your opponent is going to be giving you something bad (in the sense that getting that thing will make it more likely for you to lose) every time.

Is it edge-finding time? They play Ambassador even though they have to give you something slightly beneficial for you, because:

• Conspirator
• Horn of Plenty
• Get rid of duplication of Ambassador before Menagerie
• Get rid of Ambassador before Shanty Town
• To be able to Scheme the Ambassador
• To get something a token on the Ambassador pile gives them

[Dingan]

But why would you ever not Moat an Ambassador in 2p unless it was Golemed or Heralded into? Your opponent is going to be giving you something bad (in the sense that getting that thing will make it more likely for you to lose) every time.

Is it edge-finding time? They play Ambassador even though they have to give you something slightly beneficial for you, because:

• Conspirator
• Horn of Plenty
• Get rid of duplication of Ambassador before Menagerie
• Get rid of Ambassador before Shanty Town
• To be able to Scheme the Ambassador
• To get something a token on the Ambassador pile gives them

Edge-finding time is my favorite time of the week 

You have Trader and want a Silver.

I'm sure there are others.

[Marcory]

But why would you ever not Moat an Ambassador in 2p unless it was Golemed or Heralded into? Your opponent is going to be giving you something bad (in the sense that getting that thing will make it more likely for you to lose) every time.

Is it edge-finding time? They play Ambassador even though they have to give you something slightly beneficial for you, because:

• Conspirator
• Horn of Plenty
• Get rid of duplication of Ambassador before Menagerie
• Get rid of Ambassador before Shanty Town
• To be able to Scheme the Ambassador
• To get something a token on the Ambassador pile gives them

Edge-finding time is my favorite time of the week 

You have Trader and want a Silver.

I'm sure there are others.

For the purposes of singletree's argument, Trader and Watchtower are not materially different from playing Moat in this scenario (except of course that you can wait to play them until you see what is being Ambassador-ed to you, unlike Moat).

[iguanaiguana]

Maybe you just need a copper from the ambassador so you can trash two cards with your mercenary...

[DG]

But why would you ever not Moat an Ambassador in 2p unless it was Golemed or Heralded into? Your opponent is going to be giving you something bad (in the sense that getting that thing will make it more likely for you to lose) every time.

Maybe you want to play your secret chamber to get a trader from the top of your draw pile and put the moat back in its place.

[Marcory]

Maybe you just need a copper from the ambassador so you can trash two cards with your mercenary...

What? Ambassador doesn't put cards into your hand, and there's not a Reaction that will do that either.

[Awaclus]

Maybe you just need a copper from the ambassador so you can trash two cards with your mercenary...

What? Ambassador doesn't put cards into your hand, and there's not a Reaction that will do that either.

Ambassador doesn't, but Smithy and a lot of other cards that you can play on your own turn do.

[Marcory]

Maybe you just need a copper from the ambassador so you can trash two cards with your mercenary...

What? Ambassador doesn't put cards into your hand, and there's not a Reaction that will do that either.

Ambassador doesn't, but Smithy and a lot of other cards that you can play on your own turn do.

I suppose, but we're talking about the very late game here. Your deck is likely already full of green cards, so it's not likely that you'd draw the gained Copper even if you gained it. Maybe you have a Champion in play, so that you can first Scavenge a few Coppers, then draw them with your Moat (since we've already granted that you have one in hand), then trash them with Mercenary.

But in addition to it being the end-game, it requires that you have a Champion in play, plus a hand consisting of Scavenger, Moat, Mercenary, one junk card, and one non-junk card (or without a Champion, the 5th card can be a Crossroads). This is an impressively edgy edge-case.

[Deadlock39]

I'm pretty sure a game where you are drawing your deck during the end game and might want an extra junk card to trash to Mercenary/Forager/Trade Route/ect. Is not an impressively edgy edge-case.

[Limetime]

Win.

[Marcory]

A game in which you can draw your deck and need more junk cards for Mercenary to trash but you still haven't trashed your Moat, is probably also an edgy edge case. Also, it would be rare for your opponent to hold onto his Ambassador in a Mercenary game after the initial Ambassador war is over, unless he's trying precisely for the kind of shenanigan against which you would protect yourself with Moat.

[Awaclus]

Well, a game with Urchin, Ambassador and Moat in it is already a pretty extreme edge case. Given those circumstances, a game where you can draw your deck, need more junk cards for Mercenary and haven't trashed your Moat seems like a fairly common situation.