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AdamH

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2016, 09:37:41 am »
+2

Maybe you are under a lot of stress. Perhaps, it's work-related or that you're recently married

Look, I understand you don't mean this in an offensive way, but I'd really rather the rest of my life stay separated from this. The rest of my life is going just fine and I'm seeing this very clearly, I've had several weeks to read and re-read these PMs, I've talked to IRL friends who I trust more than anyone I've met on the internet. I would really appreciate it if my personal life didn't enter this discussion, it's none of anyone's business by my own and the people I choose to share it with.

Yes, my feelings are hurt. That tends to happen when people insult you personally. If it was just my feelings that were hurt, I don't think I'd be making such a stink about this. I've spent over a year working to make Dominion broadcasts like these better, I've come a long way and the only outlet I have for improvement is the League champion matches (nobody seems to want to have any other competitive Dominion out there because we have the League, which is fine). That work is being discarded and I have no other outlet for this -- I feel like there's something at stake here for me besides my own personal feelings.

But I don't want to make this personal -- my personal life is my own and not any of yours. Please keep it out of this. I thought I had actually brought this up publicly before, but it turns out I think that discussion happened in the League Staff sub-board and I no longer have access to it. In any case, now you all know, please don't make assumptions about my personal life; I take it... personally (ba dum tss).

So this isn't the first time people have said this. I've said it before, others have as well during the numerous negative threads on F.DS you've been involved in. Perhaps you're wondering why this comes up so often. It really has nothing to do with any of us wanting to make the debate personal, or taking shots at you, or anything like that.

Frankly, what's happening when people say this is that people are observing you having a disproportionately negative reaction to words, posts, or events in F.DS, and that you're stirring shit an order of magnitude more than the situation calls for. I mean, this particular case we can't (or at least initially couldn't) judge if you were making a mountain out of a molehill, but in other cases you've taken comments people have considered perfectly innocuous and read a degree of hostility in them no one else could, so I have to infer that it's happening here to some extent.

Anyway, when people see this strong, emotional response to events and perceived hardship blow up out of nowhere, they're asking about your personal life because frankly they don't understand how you could be so hotheaded and rushing to judgement based on the facts of the scenario alone. They are suspecting that you are stressed in other manners of your life, and that said stress is spilling over into your Dominion Strategy posts and interactions with others. The reason they are suspecting this is because they are trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. They are trying to offer you an explanation for why you're acting out so much, an explanation that lets you save face and lets them continue to regard you highly. And frankly it doesn't always make much sense why you're reacting this way otherwise.

OK, I should respond to this, because I think I can clear up some confusion here. There are two points, actually.

1. People are asking about my personal life because they want to give me the benefit of the doubt for my ideas that they think are bad.

If my ideas are bad, then they are bad. I'm presenting ideas here that I'm trying to back up, namely that the League moderators have acted inappropriately and should be removed. If those ideas aren't good enough (like people saying they need to see PMs or else my ideas don't hold water -- these are valid concerns and don't require looking into my personal life to express) then tell me why. You can attack my ideas if you think they are bad and I'll either back them up or revise them to be better or whatever. I am not afraid to be critical of my own ideas (just watch my streams, man, I give myself a hard time about my poor plays all the time, it's a great way to get better at Dominion) but I seldom post things on the forum without thinking them through for a bit. I've started typing a lot of posts that never saw the light because I thought them through and it didn't make complete sense to me.

By "giving me the benefit of the doubt" in this way, you're bringing the focus to me personally and off of my ideas. Let my ideas stand or fall on their merits; I don't want people to change League moderation because they feel bad for me, that's ridiculous. It's this reason that I don't see any benefit in bringing me-personally into the discussion and I just find it distracting. In the wrong context, it can be worse than distracting, it can come across as patronizing (that didn't happen this time, but it has happened before).

And also it makes me uncomfortable, There are parts of my life that I'm willing to share with the internet and other parts of my life that I'm not. I would not like to feel any obligation to share parts of my life that I'm not comfortable sharing, and I don't want my lack of willingness to share this information to reflect on the ideas I'm bringing forth.

2. If you think my responses are too emotional, I'd like to know where that comes from. I have made a conscious effort to use language in this thread that is as neutral and un-emotional as possible (to the point where I was criticized by someone for sounding like a teacher or something). If you think I'm making too big of a deal out of this, well, I guess I think you're not making a big enough deal out of it? I dunno. I realize some people in my position would just lay down quietly and let the league mods just go along and do whatever they want, but I'm not willing to do that. I want the community to know the decision they made and the reasons they made it, and I am of the opinion that given that knowledge, the community will agree with me that the moderators should be replaced. If that doesn't happen, it won't be because I didn't try, and it won't be because people weren't informed as much as they could be, so I'll be OK with it. (I mean, I'll "be OK with it" in the sense that I won't post about it anymore. I think that would be a terrible decision and I would want nothing to do with the League or its moderators anymore but that's my own problem)

People seem to forget that this has happened before with the whole serious tag discussion and once I saw that the community didn't want what I wanted, I stopped pushing for it. Does that mean we shouldn't have had that discussion? Of course not! We even got the wonderful "ignore user" feature out of that whole thing!

Quote
You had not told me of the date or time of that champion match until like a day or two before it was happening -- I was not included in the discussion for when that match would take place which had happened previously

Point of clarification: Was this not posted in the forum for everyone to see several days in advance, like it always is?

The two matches in question:

F.DS Championship Final
S11 Champion Match
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funkdoc

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2016, 09:54:12 am »
+3

thank you adam.  now that i better understand what your goals are, i guarantee you'll have to post PMs if you want to get anywhere.  what we have thus far isn't even remotely close to making me feel like the mods should be removed, and i'm someone who normally doesn't trust people in power and is always suspicious of them.

put it to you this way: i looked up the issue that made WW leave the league and felt that was easily worse than the stuff you've posted here to this point.  and (to my understanding) that was simply a case of moderators expecting behavior that they didn't specify in the rules at the time.  that's not an awfully high bar to clear in terms of shadiness, the ball's in your court!

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2016, 10:16:20 am »
+17

Let me just make this clear: I really hate all those mudslinging threads. It makes me really, really sad. I took efforts not to take sides here just because of the respect I have/had for you. How am I supposed not to take it personally if you talk about "the mods". If it makes anyone happy I gladly set my moderation spot for disposal (provided anyone else likes filling numbers into google docs), I'll probably have to leave it by the end of spring anyways for some time and I don't feel glorified or anything by doing what I do.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 10:29:57 am by assemble_me »
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amoffett11

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2016, 10:29:30 am »
+16

I'm new here, this will be my first season in the league, and I've never been on these forums at all until last week.  So on the one hand "Get out of here new guy, you don't know what you're talking about".  But possibly, on the other hand, I'm new and don't know anyone, and I have no dog in the fight.  "Adam Who?  He's done important things for the community?  Who cares?  Stef?  Who's that, is he supposed to be a big deal?  Who knows?".  I exaggerate a bit, but I have read through this thread (why is some new guy bothering to read this whole thing? - it's fascinating, that's why), and have been forming my opinions as I go, not reading anything through a lens of already existing opinions or biases. 

I would usually advise against posting PM's, unless both parties agree to it.  It seems like all the moderators have given a "go-ahead, post my PM's" (I could be wrong, I don't know who they all are); someone mentioned this already, but it seems to me that if the PM's were as bad as Adam says, we would have seen them by now.  We haven't seen them yet and probably never will at this rate. 

It's mentioned by Adam that he's been "shut out" of participation.  I'm assuming if he wanted to play in the league, he could.  It doesn't seem like that's important to him though, just the commentating.  Stef said that despite everything he still put Adam's name forward for the S12 championship, which I guess could be taken as he-said he-said thing if DXV hadn't already put out there that your name was among the options, and he picked someone else.  Is that the real problem here?  That someone else was picked (and someone that I've gathered Adam is not a fan of) and he missed this cool chance?  Adam mentioned he felt like he deserved it; that seemed strange to me but what do I know, maybe commentating Dominion matches is a high honour and not a service to the community.  Maybe that's what being forgetten here; the commentator is serving the community, not the other way around.  It seems clear that that was once his goal, but not right now. 

And the poll?  That doesn't give you any legs to stand on.  You created a poll that said "hey everyone, who should commentate?  cough cough I've commentated in the past cough".  Obviously you're going to get a high number of votes just from people who just like voting, and yours is the obvious answer.  You got the most votes, but did not get a majority, only 20ish% IIRC.  Given the way the poll was set up (mostly that it was set up by you yourself, and not by a third party), I'm actually surprised you didn't get more.  Sure you got more than any one person, but you could just as easily look at the pool and say "80% of people voted against him and want someone else.  They don't know who, just someone else".  What would the poll look like if it was run again today?  The support here for your commentating still seems strong, but then it seems you've burned some bridges as well.  Not knowing anything about who's best at this sort of thing, if I voted today I would not vote for you, based on nothing but what I've been reading here (I do plan to watch a few of the past championship matches to improve my own game, maybe I'll change my mind). 

You mentioned that you have no tools to fix the conflict?  That is incorrect.  You could apologize and move on.  Give it some time, and you'd probably be welcomed back in.  I find most times you actually apologize (and I'm not talking about an I'm sorry, but, I'm talking about an I'm sorry.), you receive one in return.  Are you interested in taking this road?  Probably not.  It's hard.  If not for this thread it probably would've been much easier.  I could be wrong, it could be impossible now.  Maybe you'd apologize and they'd still never let you back in.  Wouldn't that prove you right about their attitude though? 

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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2016, 10:33:49 am »
+4

About the poll, each person had five votes. So he got 1/5 of the votes, which meant like everyone voted for him, then they used their other 4 votes on other people they'd like to see.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2016, 10:48:11 am »
+7

So I think Adam doesn't care about not commenting that much, but rather the fact that the opinions individual members of the league have can push him out of commenting.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that most people like Adam commenting, but some people really don't, and the question is what do we do with those competing interests?
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2016, 10:49:37 am »
+2

So I think Adam doesn't care about not commenting that much, but rather the fact that the opinions individual members of the league have can push him out of commenting.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that most people like Adam commenting, but some people really don't, and the question is what do we do with those competing interests?
The obvious solution is to have anyone who wants to commentate the match.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2016, 10:54:12 am »
+7

Since everyone likes to see our personal messages that lead to this post, I'll post the first PM that started this whole thing off. I encourage Adam to post his reply here aswell so everyone can form their own opinion.

Little bit of context: Adam has usually been part of the playtesting process and I wanted to give him a chance to make a choice whether he wants to do that regardless of who commentates the Champion Match. (this is why this has been adressed so early)


Hey,

some Championship match contenders of this season expressed their lack of willingness to cooperate with you on stream. The moderators discussed this and after considering their points decided that  somebody else should cast the championship match until the conflict(s) bewtween the two parties are resolved. This will most likely be at least this season.

I'm telling you this now because we started playtesting last week and you are obviously still welcome to join us for that, but I don't know how much you like playtesting just for the sake of it, that's why I wanted to tell you before. Your help would be still appreciated.

-Julian
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LastFootnote

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2016, 10:54:31 am »
+2

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that most people like Adam commenting, but some people really don't, and the question is what do we do with those competing interests?

I don't think anybody has said anything about not wanting Adam to commentate. I think there is a group of people that would rather not deal with him in any capacity.

EDIT: I found a pertinent post!

Even if I'm OK being a jerk and offending all of these people, I can't be surprised when people I've offended don't want much to do with me.

Truer words have ne'er been written.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 12:15:06 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2016, 10:57:25 am »
+10

If we're going down the posting-PMs-road, I would just like to remind everyone as they read them that hindsight is always 20/20, and as long as people appear to have been operating in good faith at the time, have a willingness to change their mind/adapt/admit mistakes, there's no need to tear apart any individual communication for not being flawlessly presented.
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AdamH

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2016, 11:38:14 am »
0

It's mentioned by Adam that he's been "shut out" of participation.  I'm assuming if he wanted to play in the league, he could.  It doesn't seem like that's important to him though, just the commentating.  Stef said that despite everything he still put Adam's name forward for the S12 championship, which I guess could be taken as he-said he-said thing if DXV hadn't already put out there that your name was among the options, and he picked someone else.  Is that the real problem here?  That someone else was picked (and someone that I've gathered Adam is not a fan of) and he missed this cool chance?  Adam mentioned he felt like he deserved it; that seemed strange to me but what do I know, maybe commentating Dominion matches is a high honour and not a service to the community.  Maybe that's what being forgetten here; the commentator is serving the community, not the other way around.  It seems clear that that was once his goal, but not right now. 

So I actually agree with what you're saying, but I feel like you're quoting me out of context. Let me provide the context (where the next sentence I write goes along with you're saying).

I'm not terribly concerned with the fact that I couldn't commentate this one champion match. I mean, yes my feelings are excessively hurt because there are few things I would have liked more in this world than to commentate with DXV, and I feel like I deserve it. But the core of my problem is not the result, but how it was handled -- namely that I've been completely shut out of the process the way I was.

When I said that, I was attempting to put my own personal feelings aside, but it's being interpreted as me using that as an argument to support my position. It doesn't support my position, and it really doesn't carry any weight.

And the poll?  That doesn't give you any legs to stand on.

Again, I mostly agree with you here -- some people have clarified the mechanics of the poll for you, but the only thing I'm trying to say with the poll and its results is that the community doesn't seem to want me excluded from broadcasting/commentating big matches like the League champion matches. I don't really think you can make a stronger statement than that -- you certainly can't say something like "Adam and WW should cast EVERY MATCH EVAR!!!111" -- in fact I feel like a stronger conclusion would be that the people who got 5-15 votes who have never cast anything before should get their fair shot. I'd love to share what I've learned with them and give them opportunities to practice with whoever they'd feel comfortable with. Maybe I can still make some progress towards that but right now I'm looking at a completely closed door and being told someone has a key, I have to apologize to that person (for something that isn't clear to me yet but isn't seemingly something I feel like I have to apologize for at this very moment) to get the key. Oh yeah and that person/those people don't want their identities revealed to me or anyone ever.

Yes, all this amounts to is "some reasons why Adam's involvement in this is a good thing, even/especially if he's not the one casting." Right now I haven't seen some reason to the contrary to justify completely shutting me out like they have that holds any water, though. The fact that some mystery people out there don't like me and are using the "taking my ball and going home" strats doesn't seem very compelling to me. The fact that the league moderators are supporting it and not telling me why makes me question their judgment.

As for the PMs, I'll probably post them all at some point, enough people seem to want to see them. It's going to take me a while to find all of them and add timestamps and such, and I have a busy rest-of-the-day. There's a thread in the Dominion League Staff sub-board that I don't have access to anymore that can provide a bit of context that some may find relevant. I would also like to get a hold of that thread and post it with the PMs if that's possible, but I have no idea how to do that without the cooperation of the League mods, who I don't trust at this point not to alter it.

I'd also like to see the mods' responses to my questions in this thread before dumping the PMs, I'm foolish enough to think I might get one and posting the PMs will result in them saying "there, look at that" and proceeding to ignore me. I imagine I'll get over that one soon.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2016, 11:39:57 am »
+13

If we're going down the posting-PMs-road, I would just like to remind everyone as they read them that hindsight is always 20/20, and as long as people appear to have been operating in good faith at the time, have a willingness to change their mind/adapt/admit mistakes, there's no need to tear apart any individual communication for not being flawlessly presented.

Except grammar and spelling, of course.  We're still f.ds.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2016, 11:47:05 am »
0

As for the PMs, I'll probably post them all at some point, enough people seem to want to see them. It's going to take me a while to find all of them and add timestamps and such, and I have a busy rest-of-the-day. There's a thread in the Dominion League Staff sub-board that I don't have access to anymore that can provide a bit of context that some may find relevant. I would also like to get a hold of that thread and post it with the PMs if that's possible, but I have no idea how to do that without the cooperation of the League mods, who I don't trust at this point not to alter it.

You don't have to add timestamps manually, you can just use the quote button.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2016, 11:53:12 am »
0

I've never heard AdamH commentate.  I think it'd be fun to commentate, and would be interested if anyone is interested in me doing so (after all of this... whatevers).
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2016, 12:24:15 pm »
+16

Me while reading this thread:

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2016, 12:56:35 pm »
0

EDIT: I found a pertinent post!

Even if I'm OK being a jerk and offending all of these people, I can't be surprised when people I've offended don't want much to do with me.

Truer words have ne'er been written.

Quoting this because people will probably miss it because it was edited in way after later posts happened.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2016, 01:06:29 pm »
+7

Me while reading this thread:


You're kinda cute. Want to commentate a dominion match together?
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2016, 01:21:38 pm »
+1

If we're going down the posting-PMs-road, I would just like to remind everyone as they read them that hindsight is always 20/20, and as long as people appear to have been operating in good faith at the time, have a willingness to change their mind/adapt/admit mistakes, there's no need to tear apart any individual communication for not being flawlessly presented.

Except grammar and spelling, of course.  We're still f.ds.

And strategy advice, of course.
Yet I doubt they were discussing something like the viability of King's Court. They wouldn't be so calm and friendly.
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theory

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2016, 02:12:57 pm »
+33

When I moved this thread I thought to myself I should probably just close the thread.  I was right.

This sort of stuff is largely outside my jurisdiction since I can't make people like each other or not respond in particular ways or whatever.  But it's such a childish and stupid thing.  It doesn't need to keep happening over and over again.  Like a series of bad high school reunions these threads end up turning into rehashing the previous thread.
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