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Author Topic: Accountability  (Read 26099 times)

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Voltaire

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2016, 02:41:35 pm »
+8

I will say, I do think this belongs where it was originally posted (in the League forum).

The scheduling issue also appears to be a legitimate breakdown in communication, and Stef's "primma donna" comment is uncalled for. However, nobody is perfect, and I do not see anything yet that merits a change in league organization. I do not know the way forward as the relationships involved appear to be so significantly damaged everyone assumes the other is operating in bad faith.
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werothegreat

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2016, 03:42:19 pm »
+5

Given that most of us are not privy to these PMs (and probably, really should not be in any case), this is basically just "he said/he said".  We can't really arrive at any sort of informed decision with the information we have.  AdamH is upset, Stef does not understand why he's upset, or thinks he should not be upset.  That's really all I can tell here - I don't have enough information to know who is "right" or "wrong".

That said, it does sound like the League might need some restructuring.  I think it might be best if the moderators were rotated, or at least voted on by the forum.  I realize that might make things complicated for theory to keep changing who's a moderator, but I think that would be enough to quell accusations of misconduct.  I realize the League is Stef's baby, but if the League is going to function as the main competitive, ranked outlet for online Dominion play, which it is increasing looking like, then maybe Stef needs to let go and allow the community to start making decisions.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2016, 03:45:17 pm »
+1

I like the idea of voting for mods. I'm sure the current mods don't.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2016, 03:50:07 pm »
+9

I have never seen the idea of 'voting for mods' work out in any decent way in my entire life. There is also no reason to change anything what so ever. Some feelings were hurt. This is bad, but this isn't particularly threatening the foundation of the league in any capacity.

Please just be adults, talk it out amongst yourselves and move on.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2016, 03:57:46 pm »
+5

Whatever solution is come to, I would like to see Adam continue to broadcast commentary on some of the league championship matches (but not every single one, obviously.)

If a solution can't be reached where this happens, that would be disappointing. It seems like we can get there even if some people who are organizing the matches dislike each other.

The league championship matches are one of the nicest things about this community; I really enjoy watching the playbacks, and Adam is good at commenting for them.

Disagreements between management and talent are not uncommon in any field, anywhere, ever.
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AdamH

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2016, 04:07:28 pm »
+4

Whatever solution is come to, I would like to see Adam continue to broadcast commentary on some of the league championship matches (but not every single one, obviously.)

If I had it my way, there would be multiple "teams" of commentators that would do high-profile matches. These teams would have had the opportunity to not only practice commentary off-line at some point so they can develop some good chemistry, but also should have played the kingdoms to be used if possible and rehearse all of the technical parts of making such a broadcast so that you don't get any nasty surprises on-air. One person could be on multiple teams, but the idea is that the players would choose a date and time that works for them and hopefully we have at least one team where everyone is available and has the time beforehand to properly prepare.

The teams would try to have a mix of color commentary and high-level analysis, etc. Each person on the team should know what duties they need to perform (I'll make sure I track X's deck closely and try to monitor the chat, you make sure to track Y's deck closely and monitor the stream visuals/make adjustments; you be more of a narrator and I'll ask more questions and maybe we can switch these roles every 2 games).

I've also been toying with the idea of having another person on the "team" whose microphone is muted 99% of the time, but can watch for technical issues and monitor the chat to bring interesting points to the commentators' attention -- it gives commentators a few less things to focus on.

There would also be an easier-to-access way to practice commentary, but that's sort of tangentially related and kind of hard to do. I'd really like to see some people who got a handful of votes in that last poll get a shot at doing some commentary at some point -- a fresh voice on the scene is really nice to have.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2016, 04:10:45 pm »
+1

Whatever solution is come to, I would like to see Adam continue to broadcast commentary on some of the league championship matches (but not every single one, obviously.)

If I had it my way, there would be multiple "teams" of commentators that would do high-profile matches. These teams would have had the opportunity to not only practice commentary off-line at some point so they can develop some good chemistry, but also should have played the kingdoms to be used if possible and rehearse all of the technical parts of making such a broadcast so that you don't get any nasty surprises on-air. One person could be on multiple teams, but the idea is that the players would choose a date and time that works for them and hopefully we have at least one team where everyone is available and has the time beforehand to properly prepare.

The teams would try to have a mix of color commentary and high-level analysis, etc. Each person on the team should know what duties they need to perform (I'll make sure I track X's deck closely and try to monitor the chat, you make sure to track Y's deck closely and monitor the stream visuals/make adjustments; you be more of a narrator and I'll ask more questions and maybe we can switch these roles every 2 games).

I've also been toying with the idea of having another person on the "team" whose microphone is muted 99% of the time, but can watch for technical issues and monitor the chat to bring interesting points to the commentators' attention -- it gives commentators a few less things to focus on.

There would also be an easier-to-access way to practice commentary, but that's sort of tangentially related and kind of hard to do. I'd really like to see some people who got a handful of votes in that last poll get a shot at doing some commentary at some point -- a fresh voice on the scene is really nice to have.

Without commentating on any other aspects of the current controversy:

This sounds like a great idea. My only concern would be: the amount of work to make this happen seems high.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2016, 04:24:51 pm »
+6

Adam, there is a serious problem here. You're not actually asking any questions, and yet you get mad for not receiving answers.
Please make a simple post where you repeat your questions. You could quote yourself, or just write them down again.

I asked these questions multiple times over the course of several PMs to you and other League moderators with no answer. I stated in the OP of this post that I had asked those questions and didn't hear a response. Is the serious problem here that I didn't use a question mark in my OP? There! I just used one!

But fine, here's the list. I'll use question marks, even. If you don't want to answer the questions publicly, you can PM me the answers or something.

1. What and with whom are the conflicts that are causing people to not want to cooperate with me for broadcasting the champion match?
2. What justification do you have for allowing certain players (the answer to question 1, for example) in the League to dictate how the League is run over others (like me)?

To be fair, this question was partially answered as I mentioned in my OP -- they had said I no longer represent the community as someone they want to watch. That answer is not true, so I'm hoping for a justification that is actually correct in this case.

Some have said that the mods shouldn't have to answer question 2, I disagree. When I ask this question and receive personal insults in a response, I'd say that among the possible reasons they could have for this would be "we don't like you." OK, sometimes people don't like me, that's fine, but that shouldn't enter the decisions they make as a League moderator. If my opponent and I play a match and agree that the outcome is 3-3, and then a moderator comes in and says "replay two of the games that you won" then I'd want some justification for that, and "I don't like you" wouldn't cut it for me. The mods are acting in their capacity as mods for the purpose of kicking me out of champion match commentary, I fail to see the difference between this and other situations where they act in their capacity as mods.

1. You have shown in this thread that you show respect for what has been said in PMs. Why should we, the mods, break this with other people's PMs? If they want to speak up here, they are welcome to do so, but I don't think it is fair for us to just "out" them here.

2. There are several reasons for this: Firstly, sharing your screen with people you don't know is a private affair and we don't have the authority to force them to share a screen with you.

Secondly, we made it clear we are not kicking you out. As far as I'm aware you have casted 12 out of 13 season Champion matches and you were in consideration for this one aswell. Donald picked someone else, it was not even our decision. If I remember correctly, I said in the first PM that this is not something eternal and that I personally would like to see you back some time. The phrase "burning bridges" was only uttered by you.

Thirdly, we did not fulfil anyone's wishes with this decision. We've discussed this temporary between us and came to this agreement. Your personal attacks against us just make this look like the right decision. I am still very much willing to look past all this here in the future.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2016, 04:29:49 pm »
+29

1. What and with whom are the conflicts that are causing people to not want to cooperate with me for broadcasting the champion match?
2. What justification do you have for allowing certain players (the answer to question 1, for example) in the League to dictate how the League is run over others (like me)?
1a) The what: it's mostly about your rants on the forum, people being fed up with your continuous attempts to correct other peoples behavior and doing so in a very passive-aggressive manner.
1b) The who: No, I'm not going to name anyone. I also truly don't understand how you even ask for that. It's not as though you treat people criticizing you lightheartedly.

2. I can tell you the group of players that don't want to cooperate with you anymore has become of such weight that if they actually would leave the league, I would leave it too.


You seem to think the league championship matches are a big succes because of you, that you spend a lot of energy creating that succes, and that this entitles you to owning those matches. I disagree on almost all parts of that sentence. First of all, these matches are not a big succes at all. The most recent one had double the number of viewers and that still was below 1% of what some other games get. Secondly, I don't think you spend a lot of effort on them at all - apparently we have an entirely different definition of hard work. Finally it doesn't entitle you to anything, and certainly doesn't provide you with a wildcard to send all the negative energy you've been sending me in PMs over the last couple of months.

People nowadays seem to take the league for granted. Well, I guess that's fine, I'm not doing this because I'm looking for gratitude. But having to answer to threads like these, man, that is really depressing and energy consuming.


This is not R/S/P material.  I'm fine with moving it to General Dominion Discussion so as to avoid conflicts of interest between moderators, though I would have thought that like any other complaint about the league, it would belong in the league forum.
I initially moved this topic because I am totally fed up with it. Adams opening post was probably a bit of a surprise to most of you, but he has been building up to it in a continuously worsening series of PMs over the last months. f.ds has been swarmed with negativity, and I just want it to stop. I wanted the league subforum to be a place where people can come to schedule and play matches, talk about strategy/interesting games, announce their livestreamed matches if they like. If you're trying to avoid the drama, the league subforum is a safe place to be. That's how naive I can be.


I like the idea of voting for mods. I'm sure the current mods don't.
Have you even considered asking? I would love to be just a player in the league. None of the work, none of these kinds of threats that I have to respond to, just the playing and enjoyment. Man that sounds great. As soon as I'm convinced somebody else is capable of stepping in and taking over, I'm out. But don't underestimate what is involved, or what is actually required to keep a group of 80 people together that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.


For context, may I ask how the commentators that did commentate on the championship match this season were chosen?
I know at least part of this one.

Stef asked me if I was interesting in commentating. I said sure. He said I should have someone with me, did I have an opinion there. I said well, someone with experience with commentating who would have things to talk about. He suggested four people; WW up front, then Adam (noting that they'd had some kind of argument but still being willing to have him), SCSN and jsh357. My first pick was SCSN, who said yes.
Adam, did you read this post? Did you realize that I suggested you, just because I realized it would be a dream for you, even though we were in the middle of a fight? Would your own integrity pass that test?


For those of you that actually do appreciate the league, go find some posts of this dude to upvote. He has silently been doing a lot of the league work in the last couple of months, without ever a single complaint.
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funkdoc

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2016, 04:34:22 pm »
+25

helping a community out with the expectation of getting power or influence or ANYTHING in return is fucked up imo. do it because you love doing it, and don't assume anyone will even so much as thank you for it.

it's hard for me to have sympathy for adam here, and i've really lost a lot of respect for him.  i do think it's really bad to give the championship match date only a day or two in advance, though.  if true that's a major blowup for the league - you should be setting that at least a week in advance and hyping it up!  but i don't think anyone has a right to do commentary no matter how popular they are, and don't care if someone feels they "need" that experience.  frankly, i think it's a bad thing to have the same commentator for every major event.

time and time again, adam, i see you trying to more or less run this community and having meltdowns when it doesn't work.  you've tried making us change the way we post on this forum, you've tried to demonize the MMF mod by making specious-at-best legal arguments, and you try to frame it as a "personal insult" and paint the person as an ogre when someone calls your play stupid.  you make analogies that imply this entire forum is your personal playground, and now you do this.

i don't care if you singlehandedly got dominion into MLG, that still wouldn't justify this sense of entitlement i see.  and what you've done, though nice, isn't in the same universe as that.  no one person is bigger than the scene, period.

i've been giving you the benefit of the doubt for a while, and i still believe you're a good guy deep down.  i'd totally chill with you on some random IRL shit, but this game brings out a side of you that i'd rather not be around.  you've threatened to leave this forum as if that would be some kind of punishment for our sins, but at this point i wonder if that wouldn't be for the best for all involved.

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2016, 04:56:46 pm »
+9

I like the idea of voting for mods. I'm sure the current mods don't.
Have you even considered asking? I would love to be just a player in the league. None of the work, none of these kinds of threats that I have to respond to, just the playing and enjoyment. Man that sounds great. As soon as I'm convinced somebody else is capable of stepping in and taking over, I'm out. But don't underestimate what is involved, or what is actually required to keep a group of 80 people together that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.

I'll say this much, if we ever voted on league mods I'd vote for Stef unless he asks me not to.
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werothegreat

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2016, 05:12:53 pm »
+2

I like the idea of voting for mods. I'm sure the current mods don't.
Have you even considered asking? I would love to be just a player in the league. None of the work, none of these kinds of threats that I have to respond to, just the playing and enjoyment. Man that sounds great. As soon as I'm convinced somebody else is capable of stepping in and taking over, I'm out. But don't underestimate what is involved, or what is actually required to keep a group of 80 people together that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.

I'll say this much, if we ever voted on league mods I'd vote for Stef unless he asks me not to.

Which would be perfectly fine.  It's just a mandate for authority would make it (hopefully) less common for there to be controversies like this.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2016, 05:22:20 pm »
+8

I like the idea of voting for mods. I'm sure the current mods don't.
Have you even considered asking? I would love to be just a player in the league. None of the work, none of these kinds of threats that I have to respond to, just the playing and enjoyment. Man that sounds great. As soon as I'm convinced somebody else is capable of stepping in and taking over, I'm out. But don't underestimate what is involved, or what is actually required to keep a group of 80 people together that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.

I'll say this much, if we ever voted on league mods I'd vote for Stef unless he asks me not to.

Which would be perfectly fine.  It's just a mandate for authority would make it (hopefully) less common for there to be controversies like this.

Man, there's no need for a mandate for authority.  Stef runs the league, with some help from others.  Anyone who has trouble with that is free to not play in the league.

At no point while I was running the IsoDom/GokoDom did anyone ever suggest a vote or referendum or... anything at all, was necessary or even useful, I mean, what the hell?  Seriously, what the hell?

time and time again, adam, i see you trying to more or less run this community and having meltdowns when it doesn't work.  you've tried making us change the way we post on this forum, you've tried to demonize the MMF mod by making specious-at-best legal arguments, and you try to frame it as a "personal insult" and paint the person as an ogre when someone calls your play stupid.  you make analogies that imply this entire forum is your personal playground, and now you do this.

Seriously, Adam, funkdoc is completely right here.  Chill out, man.  Let it go.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2016, 06:17:15 pm »
+9

As one who was thinking about joining the league I can now say that I will not be.

Not because of Adam's post, or even what he said or implied about the mods.

Instead it has been the reactions. There seems to be a belief that all is fine and well on this forum. After seeing this and other similarly toned threads i have to say that statement isnt true. I have never been a very active poster on this forum but I can't imagine being more active after this. I am personally disgusted and repelled by the virtriole and aggression. No one is making me stay, certainly, but if the best argument you have is "if you don't like it then leave" then I think some serious levels of introspection are needed.

I'll keep coming for the updates on new expansions and online implementation, but really board game geek is better for that.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2016, 07:11:46 pm »
+1

who wants to play red scare? i dunno whether stef or adamh is mr. mccarthy but i have dibs on one of those people that died

also
80 people...that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.
now hey. one time MdLC pointed out a rule thing to me and then it wasnt a problem
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2016, 07:42:30 pm »
+10

As one who was thinking about joining the league I can now say that I will not be.

If you want to play Dominion then the league is still the best place to do that. People have personalities and they will clash, almost inevitably, over anything and everything. Ideally it isn't going to be in public and ideally it isn't between people who've all put a lot into time into this, but the more time people invest in something the more emotionally invested they get too. Nobody else should let it become their problem.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2016, 07:57:36 pm »
+6

If you want to play Dominion when you're tired, in a bad mood, and have a headache, then the league is still the best place to do that.

FTFY. If you want to play Dominion when you actually feel good about playing Dominion, finding an automatch on Making Fun is a way better place to do that.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2016, 08:11:09 pm »
+1

80 people...that would do nothing rather than quarrel about every last dot in the rules. It certainly does involve responding to threats like this, with people attacking your integrity out of nowhere.
now hey. one time MdLC pointed out a rule thing to me and then it wasnt a problem
And it was a very nice exchange. It almost made me feel bad for pointing it out since it helped me.

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2016, 08:25:21 pm »
+25

So I'm not going to be intentionally mean or anything like that, but I'm not really going to sugar coat this post, because I don't think it will make much of a difference. Either AdamH will react to it negatively, or he will listen to the post and consider the points made in it. I don't think the tone I use makes much of a difference at this point.

Maybe you are under a lot of stress. Perhaps, it's work-related or that you're recently married

Look, I understand you don't mean this in an offensive way, but I'd really rather the rest of my life stay separated from this. The rest of my life is going just fine and I'm seeing this very clearly, I've had several weeks to read and re-read these PMs, I've talked to IRL friends who I trust more than anyone I've met on the internet. I would really appreciate it if my personal life didn't enter this discussion, it's none of anyone's business by my own and the people I choose to share it with.

Yes, my feelings are hurt. That tends to happen when people insult you personally. If it was just my feelings that were hurt, I don't think I'd be making such a stink about this. I've spent over a year working to make Dominion broadcasts like these better, I've come a long way and the only outlet I have for improvement is the League champion matches (nobody seems to want to have any other competitive Dominion out there because we have the League, which is fine). That work is being discarded and I have no other outlet for this -- I feel like there's something at stake here for me besides my own personal feelings.

But I don't want to make this personal -- my personal life is my own and not any of yours. Please keep it out of this. I thought I had actually brought this up publicly before, but it turns out I think that discussion happened in the League Staff sub-board and I no longer have access to it. In any case, now you all know, please don't make assumptions about my personal life; I take it... personally (ba dum tss).

So this isn't the first time people have said this. I've said it before, others have as well during the numerous negative threads on F.DS you've been involved in. Perhaps you're wondering why this comes up so often. It really has nothing to do with any of us wanting to make the debate personal, or taking shots at you, or anything like that.

Frankly, what's happening when people say this is that people are observing you having a disproportionately negative reaction to words, posts, or events in F.DS, and that you're stirring shit an order of magnitude more than the situation calls for. I mean, this particular case we can't (or at least initially couldn't) judge if you were making a mountain out of a molehill, but in other cases you've taken comments people have considered perfectly innocuous and read a degree of hostility in them no one else could, so I have to infer that it's happening here to some extent.

Anyway, when people see this strong, emotional response to events and perceived hardship blow up out of nowhere, they're asking about your personal life because frankly they don't understand how you could be so hotheaded and rushing to judgement based on the facts of the scenario alone. They are suspecting that you are stressed in other manners of your life, and that said stress is spilling over into your Dominion Strategy posts and interactions with others. The reason they are suspecting this is because they are trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. They are trying to offer you an explanation for why you're acting out so much, an explanation that lets you save face and lets them continue to regard you highly. And frankly it doesn't always make much sense why you're reacting this way otherwise.

You don't have to tell us about your personal life here, that's not what we're asking of you at all, and ultimately only you can say if you've got other shit going on that's influencing the way you react to things, but honestly, after all this, maybe you just take everything fucking personally. I don't know anymore dude.

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A lot of people have said that my words have no teeth without seeing the PMs. I agree, I'd think the same thing in your shoes. I've seen some ideas suggested here, most of them seem perfectly reasonable but I can't do all of them, you know? I'd like to know what people actually want to see before doing something un-undoable. If only people could put +1s on the posts whose ideas they liked... I'll reiterate -- I'm willing to share anything, I have nothing to hide, but I don't want to go posting something that I shouldn't have, and it's just not clear to me what I should post yet. Until that happens, it would be unreasonable of me to expect anyone to take my word over anyone else's.

This conclusion I'm coming to is a big stretch here, could be totally off base, but I have trouble understanding a different one. I think you're afraid that if you actually share the PMs you won't have as much support as you would if you didn't. You've seen it happen before - you feel wronged by others, lash out, but don't receive much support for it, and those are when the fights were in public when people could see everything. You say you want to post something you shouldn't, but you have repeatedly attacked Stef's character when he has said openly that he would much rather you post the PMs he sent rather than just saying he lacks integrity over and over again. The only reason I can think you aren't posting his PMs when you know that is actually preferred by him than how you are currently treating him, is if you think we won't be as sympathetic once you do. I just don't understand it.

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As for creating a division on the board, or trying to take over the League for myself -- that's definitely not what I want. I never said I wanted that. Please read my posts carefully and you'll see exactly what I'm saying and what I want. Organizing the League was something I felt I had to put up with in order to do what I was good at, which was organizing the Champion matches -- at the end of season 11, Stef and I had a discussion and we both agreed that it made more sense for me to not be a full League moderator but still put together the champion matches.

My point is that organizing an online league or tournament isn't exactly at the top of my list -- I've been putting all of my efforts into my IRL scene (mostly because of Adventures) and there are plenty of people online who would rather help out with this. I don't want all of the power or the responsibility; I could probably handle it but I'd really rather not. I feel the League moderators have acted with a lack of integrity here severe enough that it would be dishonest of me not to tell the community, and I think the solution is that they don't moderate the League anymore. It is because they wouldn't want to step down that the League would be dissolved and something put in its place, but I'd really like for that to not be my problem, which is why I said the community should come up with it. I feel like I already typed all of this in my OP, though. Is something not clear?

You want a division on the board - you want the community to turn against the current League moderators. Don't deny that, it's what you're asking us to do. Stop playing in the League so that we can get new moderators. This is exactly what you said. This will divide the community between those who support the moderators and those who support you. You know this.

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I'm questioning your integrity for reasons entirely unrelated to this. If you don't like it, then I'd suggest acting with integrity.

And those reasons are...? Because he didn't respond to a few PMs? What did the PMs he didn't respond to say? You should have no issue sharing THOSE, since those are a completely one way discussion, right? You created all that content. And regardless, Stef said he would rather you post his PMs than continue to just insult him like this. You're being a huge dick dude. Without knowing any of the story, just the way you are treating Stef in this thread makes me and I think many others inclined to take his side.

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You had not told me of the date or time of that champion match until like a day or two before it was happening -- I was not included in the discussion for when that match would take place which had happened previously

Point of clarification: Was this not posted in the forum for everyone to see several days in advance, like it always is?

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Theory sees all of the reports regardless, I think. This thread belongs in the Dominion League board, not here. You couldn't edit posts there without it showing up that the post had been edited. Yes, you moving the topic here is a clear abuse of power, don't try and pretend that it isn't.

Dude, there's a redirect link created when he moves a thread. This isn't hidden from ANYONE. I saw it, and I never go here. If you have legitimate gripes, splitting hairs and being so damn petty isn't winning you any favors.

Look, after reading this whole thread Adam, all I can say is that, without knowing what happened, I can totally plausibly see how some moderators could have difficulty working with you and not want to include you in some aspects of planning the final match. Stef seems more than accomodating - for heaven's sake, while you were arguing (and it's not like Stef is the world's most argumentative person) he put aside your quarrels to ask the creator of Dominion if he would like to do commentary with you. I could totally see how literally anything negative said about you in PMs when you demanded to know why you were excluded was taken as an insult. I can totally see how at some point they decided no answer would satisfy you without resulting to more screaming about how they're insulting you. You're being really difficult here. Aren't we all kind of sick of this?

I'm sorry, dude. I enjoy your stream, I respect your opinions, I like your commentary, but please learn to work with people you don't see eye to eye with!
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SirSlugma

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2016, 09:13:49 pm »
+7

This is all a whole ball of nasty unnecessary drama, and I'll try to avoid taking a side by sticking to the point here.

If Adam is irritated by being "excluded" from broadcasting future championship matches, and nobody seems to be actually against him broadcasting future matches, then what are we even arguing about?

There are some feelings hurt, and that'll have to be addressed by and between the hurt parties.  Aside from that, the League seems to be perfectly within its bounds and any negativity towards the League as a forum for competitive Dominion play seems to just be detrimental to the community as a whole.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2016, 10:09:05 pm »
+1

This is all a whole ball of nasty unnecessary drama, and I'll try to avoid taking a side by sticking to the point here.

If Adam is irritated by being "excluded" from broadcasting future championship matches, and nobody seems to be actually against him broadcasting future matches, then what are we even arguing about?

There are some feelings hurt, and that'll have to be addressed by and between the hurt parties.  Aside from that, the League seems to be perfectly within its bounds and any negativity towards the League as a forum for competitive Dominion play seems to just be detrimental to the community as a whole.

The argument is about Adam's irritation, and whether he's justified in his irritation or not. From what I've seen, the most recent championship match was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not important by itself. Adam isn't excluded from future commentary (so far), but that's not actually why every party's mad.

That being said, this argument isn't directly relevant to anyone outside of the Dominion League staff. Adam thinks publicizing part of the argument is necessary to be treated fairly, and well I have no opinion on that. I'm not invested in either the League or any of the League staff, and will be observing this from the roof of a three-story car park with binoculars.

When there's an argument that's heavily about the character of the people involved, and those people have invested significant time into something, sparks are almost always going to fly. If your hair catches on fire for getting too close, you've got nobody to blame.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2016, 02:18:42 am »
+5

Aside from that, the League seems to be perfectly within its bounds and any negativity towards the League as a forum for competitive Dominion play seems to just be detrimental to the community as a whole.

At the risk of stating the obvious, I wanted to clarify why I upvoted this post (PPE: well that was all the original intent of this post was anyway):

If you want to play Dominion when you're tired, in a bad mood, and have a headache, then the league is still the best place to do that.

FTFY. If you want to play Dominion when you actually feel good about playing Dominion, finding an automatch on Making Fun is a way better place to do that.

The League is a great forum for competitive Dominion play, but scheduling matches can certainly be difficult, by no fault of the league moderators or other members of your division. This is why I took a break from the league around seasons 5-10, and why I'm doing the same thing right now--and as I said in my division's thread, I hope to return before long.

Apart from the inherent difficulty of scheduling matches and sometimes playing a match in a bad mental state, I've had nothing but good experiences with the League.

--

Adam, I really hope drsteelhammer's and Stef's posts (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14758.msg568707#msg568707 and http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14758.msg568709#msg568709) answered your questions.

I've spent over a year working to make Dominion broadcasts like these better, I've come a long way and the only outlet I have for improvement is the League champion matches(nobody seems to want to have any other competitive Dominion out there because we have the League, which is fine). That work is being discarded and I have no other outlet for this

If I'm understanding this section correctly, you think the only way you can improve as a commentator is by commentating championship matches? Why not other regular-season league matches, or even just casual matches? I'm not sure if my video card/internet connection or scheduling abilities would be up to snuff for this, but I'd be willing to try to setup matches with someone that you'd be able to commentate.
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2016, 08:24:43 am »
+5

There have been a lot of things said here about me. I've read them. If necessary I will respond to them individually, but I'm not going to do that right now.

I'd really recommend that you all actually read my posts and read what I'm saying. Don't put words in my mouth and then get mad at me because I said the words you put in my mouth. The main point of confusion I see right now is that people think I believe I'm entitled to commentate ALL of the champion matches. This is not the case; the issue is that I've been shut out of all participation indefinitely and the reasons behind this decision.

1. What and with whom are the conflicts that are causing people to not want to cooperate with me for broadcasting the champion match?
2. What justification do you have for allowing certain players (the answer to question 1, for example) in the League to dictate how the League is run over others (like me)?
1a) The what: it's mostly about your rants on the forum, people being fed up with your continuous attempts to correct other peoples behavior and doing so in a very passive-aggressive manner.
1b) The who: No, I'm not going to name anyone. I also truly don't understand how you even ask for that. It's not as though you treat people criticizing you lightheartedly.

2. I can tell you the group of players that don't want to cooperate with you anymore has become of such weight that if they actually would leave the league, I would leave it too.

You've already been more helpful in this post than in the total of all PMs I received, so thank you for that.

Let me make sure I understand this correctly: I am only asking for clarification here so that I know exactly what you're saying.

1a: you said "mostly" -- is there anything else, anything at all, other than my posts on other parts of the forum? It's important that I know everything, namely because once I explain why this argument is not valid, I want it to be very clear that you have no legs to stand on whatsoever. If you have some other reason that's valid, then I will just accept that and be done with this.

1b: I'll clarify why I want to know who it is, even though it seems obvious to me. You and other mods have said I'm welcome back to commentate once the conflicts are resolved, and this is supposed to make you all look better like you aren't just kicking me out. Assuming you are justified in doing this, if I don't know what the conflicts are (I'm close, but you still need to finish answering 1a) and I don't know who they are with, then how am I supposed to resolve the conflicts? I can't possibly do anything, and I have no way of knowing what it is I could do that might come closer to resolving these conflicts. From my perspective (or from anyone's perspective that isn't you or someone you won't name), how is this any different from just kicking me out? Unless you can translate this into something I can do differently, I can't do anything with it.

2: OK I actually don't understand what you're saying here. I don't understand "of such weight" -- like that doesn't give me any idea of how many people your "Adam Horton Hate Group" has. It could have anywhere from 2 to 55 or even more people in it. Let's say it has 55 people in it, I guess. So I don't want to put words in your mouth, but right now what I see is not a justification, it's your own personal preference. So I guess I will guess what you are saying and you can confirm?

So what I think you're saying is that there's a group of people out there who dislike me so much that either [they would quit the league if I had anything to do with the league at all]/[they would quit the league if I commentated champion matches]/[they would not be willing to share their screen with me for the purpose of commentating champion matches]/[something else?]. The group has asked the league moderators to make a decision using their authority as league moderators to make it so that I'm not allowed to commentate any champion matches until they say so, and the group has also asked that [the existence and contents of the group are kept private]/[I have no tools to fix the conflict]/[I really don't understand this part, like I can't even make assumptions that make sense to me. How are you justifying the fact that you as league moderators are using your authority to accommodate people who have problems with me that are unrelated to the league and the champion match and my commentary when they are the ones coming to you with whatever option you selected above? It seems that they are the ones trying to create this division based on factors completely unrelated to the League and you've brought it to the League by kicking me out of commentary, despite that the community has clearly shown that they want me to be involved (or is the group so small that they voted in the poll and were just vastly outnumbered?)]

Or am I missing something? Like, this part just doesn't make sense to me. Can you explain it in little words? Why is it appropriate for you to make a League-based decision like the one you have made (I can't commentate until the conflict is fixed PLUS I have no tools to fix the conflict) based on a group's request for entirely non-league-related reasons? Why is the course of action you have taken better than telling them that they just need an attitude adjustment if they can't play nice with someone who has had no problems with the League before and has put in a lot of work to make the League and the champion matches what they are?
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Re: Accountability
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2016, 09:01:00 am »
0

Firstly, sharing your screen with people you don't know is a private affair and we don't have the authority to force them to share a screen with you.

I don't understand this point. Don't the championship match players broadcast their screen on twitch where the whole Internet (including Adam) can see it anyway?

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Re: Accountability
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2016, 09:04:34 am »
0

Firstly, sharing your screen with people you don't know is a private affair and we don't have the authority to force them to share a screen with you.

I don't understand this point. Don't the championship match players broadcast their screen on twitch where the whole Internet (including Adam) can see it anyway?

Normally people only share a portion of their screen with the internet when they stream (the game window). For these broadcasts we use software that allows me and other broadcasters to see the players' whole screens.

Nobody is forced to participate in or have the champion match broadcast if they aren't comfortable. In this case we either just streamed the other person's perspective or don't stream it at all if both parties would rather not.
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