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Author Topic: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers  (Read 4297 times)

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J Reggie

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Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« on: February 03, 2016, 11:07:18 pm »
+5




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Candlestick Maker, University, Oasis, Smugglers, Envoy, Gardens, Cache, Count, Embassy, Inn, Travelling Fair, Raid
So I have a group of people whom I play with IRL weekly, using all expansions except Empires, because it isn't out yet.  This is one of the more intriguing games that I've come across (despite not having any cards from Intrigue in it).

Looking at the board, there seems to be a potential for an engine here, but it just doesn't seem worth it versus the Gardens rush.  I actually opened with Travelling Fair, buying a copper and putting a Candlestick Maker on top of my deck, enabling me to get two more Candlestick Makers next turn.  Normally, I wouldn't see Candlestick Maker as a Gardens enabler particularly, but with Travelling Fair it seems to work pretty well.  I got Cache a few times before just going straight for the coppers.  It took my opponents a little while to catch on (this was a 4P game), but the Gardens and Candlestick Makers were gone in no time.  The third pile ended up being Copper, making this the second time that's happened to me (the first was a Mountebank game). 

I have no idea if I played this board well at all, but I did win, so there's that.  I'm a big fan of rushes like this that involve a synergy between three or more cards (or events); they provide a nice break from the usual engines and 2-card combos.  How do you guys think Travelling Fair works with Gardens?  Would this normally be too slow?  Is Cache good here?

wachsmuth

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2016, 02:44:23 am »
+1

Normally, I wouldn't see Candlestick Maker as a Gardens enabler particularly,

You should. It's absolutely top tier for Gardens. Beggar is clearly better, and Ironworks probably is, but otherwise, I can think of no other card (excluding Adventures, which I am not familiar with) that works better. It's really cheap, non-terminal and very spammable.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2016, 04:42:11 am »
0

Normally, I wouldn't see Candlestick Maker as a Gardens enabler particularly,

You should. It's absolutely top tier for Gardens. Beggar is clearly better, and Ironworks probably is, but otherwise, I can think of no other card (excluding Adventures, which I am not familiar with) that works better. It's really cheap, non-terminal and very spammable.

Lost Treasure in Adventurers + Ranger is probably not bad too, although untested.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2016, 08:07:59 am »
+4

So, I don't really have much experience with Travelling Fair, certainly with Gardens, but I don't expect it's a great enabler. You usually don't have so much extra money to throw around, and top-decking is not as good when you're getting to buying green fast. Still, of course I am sure it helps sometimes.

The question about CSM is a bit interesting. I certainly don't think it's a great "enabler", though it's ok. I mean, there tend to be a couple ways you can play Gardens: as some points while you're running piles out really fast (rush), or as a way to get a huge mass of points that can't really be overcome (slog). I suppose you want CSM for a rush more than a slog? The issue is that the economic impact just isn't all that huge - they're effectively coppers with buys attached. And while the tokens can be nice, once you have so many CSM, the marginal utility of the money being in token form goes way down. And it still takes a loooooong time for you to be able to pile CSM+Gardens+Estate (I am guessing that's the third pile usually). Or maybe you're playing it as a slog, but I think the mediocre economy hurts even worse there.

In addition to Beggar and Ironworks, I assume at least Squire, off the top of my head, is a better enabler.

Kirian

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2016, 12:09:33 pm »
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WW, I assume what makes CSM useful is that you can save up tokens to get Gardens, and never have to bother with Silvers.

I'm not really seeing Travelling Fair though.
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AdamH

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2016, 01:59:39 pm »
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This shouldn't shock anyone, but I think WW is right on here. I agree with just about everything he said here.

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2016, 02:34:37 pm »
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WW, I assume what makes CSM useful is that you can save up tokens to get Gardens, and never have to bother with Silvers.

I get that. I just don't think it's very good. You open CSM/CSM, you probably get 3 more on turns 3 and 4, you finish them out on turn 7 or so, at which point you have something like 11 coppers, 10 CSM and your 3 estates, right? And then, you don't want to waste any tokens, so if you have $3 or more from just coppers, you get a Gardens, and other than that... estate? Eventually you take your plunge and buy out the Gardens, and the Estates, I suppose. It probably takes, oh, 21 turns, from the start, and you get all the Gardens, CSMs, Estates, and... I'm not sure how many coppers. Probably you have 4 or 5 point Gardens. Let's say you can get to 5. That gives you enough points to equal out all the Provinces. Hooray. On the other hand, most anything respectable can actually empty the Provinces in that amount of time, so I remain pretty unconvinced.

Chris is me

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2016, 03:04:50 pm »
+1

WW, I assume what makes CSM useful is that you can save up tokens to get Gardens, and never have to bother with Silvers.

I get that. I just don't think it's very good. You open CSM/CSM, you probably get 3 more on turns 3 and 4, you finish them out on turn 7 or so, at which point you have something like 11 coppers, 10 CSM and your 3 estates, right? And then, you don't want to waste any tokens, so if you have $3 or more from just coppers, you get a Gardens, and other than that... estate? Eventually you take your plunge and buy out the Gardens, and the Estates, I suppose. It probably takes, oh, 21 turns, from the start, and you get all the Gardens, CSMs, Estates, and... I'm not sure how many coppers. Probably you have 4 or 5 point Gardens. Let's say you can get to 5. That gives you enough points to equal out all the Provinces. Hooray. On the other hand, most anything respectable can actually empty the Provinces in that amount of time, so I remain pretty unconvinced.

While CSM / Gardens isn't game breaking by any means, you're very much underestimating the number of cards you end up with in your deck with the strategy. You're gaining 10 cards plus the number of turns *per shuffle*, so it isn't at all unheard of to hit 60 cards by turn 17 with a CSM / Gardens slush.

IMO, CSM is a great Gardens enabler, among the best (but no Ironworks). The problem is, Gardens has to be the best strategy on the board for it to work, which is somewhat rare.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 03:06:26 pm by Chris is me »
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J Reggie

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2016, 03:20:04 pm »
0

I think Travelling Fair's top-decking is important here.  I was able to play CSM turn 2, getting 3 CSMs and a copper before my first shuffle.  In general, it sped up the game a lot, as I could play CSMs the turn after I gained them.  The coin tokens also really helped in making sure I always hit even amounts of money.  I don't think piling the coppers would have been possible if none of my opponents had contested, but then I would have had more Gardens anyway, and could have just gone for the estates.  I guess the point that's most interesting here is the usefulness of Travelling Fair's top-decking in rushes, however much that may be. 

WanderingWinder

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2016, 03:35:13 pm »
+4

WW, I assume what makes CSM useful is that you can save up tokens to get Gardens, and never have to bother with Silvers.

I get that. I just don't think it's very good. You open CSM/CSM, you probably get 3 more on turns 3 and 4, you finish them out on turn 7 or so, at which point you have something like 11 coppers, 10 CSM and your 3 estates, right? And then, you don't want to waste any tokens, so if you have $3 or more from just coppers, you get a Gardens, and other than that... estate? Eventually you take your plunge and buy out the Gardens, and the Estates, I suppose. It probably takes, oh, 21 turns, from the start, and you get all the Gardens, CSMs, Estates, and... I'm not sure how many coppers. Probably you have 4 or 5 point Gardens. Let's say you can get to 5. That gives you enough points to equal out all the Provinces. Hooray. On the other hand, most anything respectable can actually empty the Provinces in that amount of time, so I remain pretty unconvinced.

While CSM / Gardens isn't game breaking by any means, you're very much underestimating the number of cards you end up with in your deck with the strategy. You're gaining 10 cards plus the number of turns *per shuffle*, so it isn't at all unheard of to hit 60 cards by turn 17 with a CSM / Gardens slush.

IMO, CSM is a great Gardens enabler, among the best (but no Ironworks). The problem is, Gardens has to be the best strategy on the board for it to work, which is somewhat rare.
Surely you're overestimating. 17 turns means 17 buys, so 33 CSM plays? Turn 1-2 you obviously get 0. Let's say turns 3-4 you get 2 (which is a little bit generous but still the most likely); this gets you to 5 CSMs in 16 cards for turns 5-7. Let's say you play them all again on those turns. Now we're at 7 plays, 10 CSMs and 24 cards. Let's be VERY generous and give you all 10 on turns 8-11. Now we're at 17 plays, 38 cards. And now even if we get all 10 CSMs in the top of the deck, over the next 6 turns, we can only get a max of 10 more plays, we won't hit another shuffle, that gets us to 27 CSM plays plus our 17 natural buys, meaning at most we are hitting 54 cards on turn 17. Ok, actually we could have been luckier getting 1 CSM a shuffle faster, which gets the best case up by 1, to 55, but I have already pushed you to the point of being quite lucky.

So really, it *is* unheard of - it's impossible, actually. Of course, if you throw another enabler in the mix, things get better, but that was never in dispute.

Perhaps I was being slightly pessimistic - by the time you get to turn 21, you're very likely to have 5 point Gardens - but I don't think it changes the overall verdict by much.

LastFootnote

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2016, 03:43:28 pm »
+5

Although it may or may not be wise, I would certainly be tempted to play heavy Raid/Gardens. The –1 Card attack is pretty significant when most of their deck is junk, often preventing a Gardens buy for at least one opponent. If you get to $7 or $8 with at least 3 Silvers in hand, you can even buy Travelling Fair and then Raid, topdecking your Silvers and setting up another such turn.

Such a deck probably nabs fewer Gardens, but has a much greater ability to pick up Provinces to make up the difference.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 03:46:08 pm by LastFootnote »
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DG

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Re: Travelling Fair and Candlestick Maker as Gardens enablers
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2016, 05:16:55 pm »
+2

With traveling fair and cache you can gain the cache card and 4 copper cards each turn, putting them on top of the deck. If you have 6 gardens that will net an average of 3 points a turn. I guess that could be a thing in some kingdoms but probably not here.
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