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[ashersky]

My next game, Walking Dead RMM, will have personal QTs.  You know I won't implement this rule you are discussing -- should I stop working on it because it won't fill due to that?  I've put in hours already, and still have hours to go.  I don't want to waste that time if my lack of a rule means no one will play.

Well, I for one will join your game either way

I am also not making my participation determinations based on this rule, fwiw.

[Awaclus]

Um, okay.

You could use one QT and label each post as "fake cop" or "fake doc" or whatever, and then cut and paste as appropriate.  Then it's only one QT.

Or there are a million others ways to do it.  Having a fake QT for every possible fakeclaim in a game is just your way.

It's not the number of QTs that's the problem. The problem is that you have to write posts for each different fake claim.

[silverspawn]

Is there really a problem with making a rule saying:

you aren't allowed to quote from QT's or anything that causes this problem that we all know and understand

[faust]

Well, that escalated quickly.

I think many people who are against QT quoting overestimate the difficulty of making up QT quotes in the spot. Just because it has not been done yet doesn't mean it is impossible. I mean, you will have your game notes, just modify them a bit and you'll get a decent series of quotes.

My games have this rule:

1. You may not quote information (either real or fabricated) from any source other than the thread you are posting in. This means no quotes from PMs and no quotes from QTs in the main thread or in another QT. Paraphrasing is acceptable. If you are unsure whether a post is legal, please ask the moderator before posting.

which disallows QT posting because that is just the simplest phrasing to work for all the various RMMy cases. But I have no qualms if someone want to allow QT quotes. I disagree with people on far more substantial levels, like does a Roleblocker block a Strongman, and still happily play their games.

[Teproc]

Look, I'm not saying I'll boycott ash's games on principle or something, but I won't enjoy having to do it as scum, and if I don't anticipate enjoying playing in a game, why would I do it ? I've played in very few RMMs and no one has taken this to be a stance against RMMs, this is no different.

It is entirely possible I overestimate how hard it will be for scum to fake it. If that is the case, then the towncred from it will disappear pretty fast and it won't be a problem anyway. But, well... I'll believe it when I see it.

[Teproc]

I think the whole "this prevents people from taking notes about vote counts and stuff" thing is preposterous. Not only do I know that people used to do this, I've done this as recently as Marvel Heroes. All you need to do is not say "I've quoted this from a word document", or you could even ask the mod beforehand if it's okay, he will obviously say yes and there you go.

The paraphrasing thing is not a big worry to me, because I'll feel fine refusing to do that as either alignment, just because I don't think paraphrasing goes completely against the whole idea of QT quoting fortowncred, which is to show your train of thought. Once you're paraphrasing, you're very visibly adding a filter whichmakes it mean very little, because it clearly is fabricated regardless of alignment.

[Teproc]

because I think paraphrasing goes against etc.*

[Awaclus]

I think many people who are against QT quoting overestimate the difficulty of making up QT quotes in the spot. Just because it has not been done yet doesn't mean it is impossible. I mean, you will have your game notes, just modify them a bit and you'll get a decent series of quotes.

The problem is not that it's difficult, the problem is that it takes time. If a townie is asked to copy paste his QT, he can do so in two minutes. You can't fabricate an entire game's worth of QT in two minutes, and then you'll get lynched because the townie's QT quotes were confirmed to be real while yours were not.

[ashersky]

I think many people who are against QT quoting overestimate the difficulty of making up QT quotes in the spot. Just because it has not been done yet doesn't mean it is impossible. I mean, you will have your game notes, just modify them a bit and you'll get a decent series of quotes.

The problem is not that it's difficult, the problem is that it takes time. If a townie is asked to copy paste his QT, he can do so in two minutes. You can't fabricate an entire game's worth of QT in two minutes, and then you'll get lynched because the townie's QT quotes were confirmed to be real while yours were not.

That's true.

I think what you (and others) really want is for the asking of QT copying to stop.  It's not the fact that it's allowed that matters.  All sorts of stuff are "allowed" simply because they are not disallowed.  I could post McFiggleBump over and over again while playing a game and while it'd be annoying and useless, it would't be "against the rules" to do.  No one would say all mods should add a rule disallowing the word McFiggleBump from games.

Town players shouldn't lean on the crutch of copied QT posts to determine towniness.  It's easily manipulated and clearly not a popular tool.

[yuma]

Town players shouldn't lean on the crutch of copied QT posts to determine towniness.  It's easily manipulated and clearly not a popular tool.

This. Just. Be cool guys. Be cool.

[Witherweaver]

I should point out that in that game, neither Egor (town) nor RR (scum) posted anything of content in their personal QT.  I somewhat anticipated this, but I still asked them to post anyway.  This wasn't only for the purpose of seeing what they put in their QT (it may or may not have helped), but it was also something from which I could gauge reactions.

[Teproc]

Yet again, you guys just see this as a crutch and a useless thing anyway, and yet again I must disagree. Could be wrong, but I'll believe scum can succesfully fake it when I see it. ash's analogy doesn't work because posting nonsense isn't particularly helpful, whereas QT posting is.

THe problem with the "just don't do it guys" stance is that it's completely arbitrary. Why should we ask people to not do something that helps them win when it's not against the rules ? Let's say scum screws up and posts something they intended for the scum QT in a neighborhood QT. Should the neighbor not post in in thread because that's "not cool" too ? If I saw someone was online and they later say they weren't, should I not say it because that's not cool ?

The problem with these considerations is that they are completely arbitrary. Rules are arbitrary too, but at least thy're clearly stated at the beginning of the game.

[Awaclus]

That's true.

I think what you (and others) really want is for the asking of QT copying to stop.  It's not the fact that it's allowed that matters.  All sorts of stuff are "allowed" simply because they are not disallowed.  I could post McFiggleBump over and over again while playing a game and while it'd be annoying and useless, it would't be "against the rules" to do.  No one would say all mods should add a rule disallowing the word McFiggleBump from games.

Town players shouldn't lean on the crutch of copied QT posts to determine towniness.  It's easily manipulated and clearly not a popular tool.

The difference is that posting McFiggleBump over and over again is not beneficial for your alignment, while asking people to copy their QTs and also copying your own QT are very much the correct play in every game where it's allowed. Even if town doesn't lean on it, scum still has to spend basically 24 hours a day 7 days a week writing fake QT posts just in case town decides to do it this time, if it's allowed.

[Witherweaver]

I have also, in the past, written posts in emails to myself or notepad for the purpose of posting them later, by literal copy and paste.  There is nothing in the rules that prevents this, and I don't think there should be.

The issue I could see with the QT is it's something given by the mod that the mod can see; there is a slight gray area with "mod communication".  For example, my first post that QT was something like "I'm thinking of doing something crazy this game".  Was it directed at the mod, or to the general aether?  It could have easily been "Hey, Yuma, I'm thinking of doing something crazy this game".

You could have the rule be something like, you can't post anything from any medium of open communication (including QTs), but you can compile messages ahead of time just for yourself and copy them in (e.g., notepad, email to self).

[yuma]

THe problem with the "just don't do it guys" stance is that it's completely arbitrary. Why should we ask people to not do something that helps them win when it's not against the rules ? Let's say scum screws up and posts something they intended for the scum QT in a neighborhood QT. Should the neighbor not post in in thread because that's "not cool" too ? If I saw someone was online and they later say they weren't, should I not say it because that's not cool ?

...

I can't have this conversation with you any more. I don't know if I can have any conversations with you anymore.

[Teproc]

I know those examples are quite different than QT posting, but what I'm arguing is more that "let's agree not to do it" doesn't really work.

[Witherweaver]

What hundreds of QTs are you faking?

There's the personal QT you are either given by the mod or you created yourself.  That's it.  No one, and I mean no one, is creating hundreds of QTs a game for their own use.

You are faking the VT QT, the Cop QT, the Doctor QT, the Jailkeeper QT, the 1-shot Bulletproof QT, the Roleblocker QT, the Vigilante QT, and another QT for each of the possible fake claims you might want to use at some point during the game. If you don't do that, you are playing suboptimally on purpose, and at that point, you might as well not play at all.

Really, you could make the same argument that to play optimally as scum you have to be planting possible hints in the thread for all these scenarios as you're playing.  That is, actually, more difficult and more work, I think.

[ashersky]

Awaclus is using hyperbole to be contrarian and to try to prove his point.  You just divide anything he says by like 2000 and you get a realistic amount of whatever it is he's shoveling.

I have also, in the past, written posts in emails to myself or notepad for the purpose of posting them later, by literal copy and paste.  There is nothing in the rules that prevents this, and I don't think there should be.

The issue I could see with the QT is it's something given by the mod that the mod can see; there is a slight gray area with "mod communication".  For example, my first post that QT was something like "I'm thinking of doing something crazy this game".  Was it directed at the mod, or to the general aether?  It could have easily been "Hey, Yuma, I'm thinking of doing something crazy this game".

You could have the rule be something like, you can't post anything from any medium of open communication (including QTs), but you can compile messages ahead of time just for yourself and copy them in (e.g., notepad, email to self).

If a players creates his own QT for notes, there's no way a mod knows it exists so there's no way a mod can police it.  A player could post a lot of text and claim it is from a QT and the mod doesn't know if it is or isn't if the mod doesn't have access.

At that point, it's a honor system rule, right?  One that's easily manipulated without breaking.

[Witherweaver]

I don't see why it's even the honor system.  As the rules stand now, there is nothing that says I cannot precompile a post and copy it in at a later time, right?  I could even write the post directly in the browser and just leave the browser window open for days, even weeks* and then post it with "I typed this up last week" or something.

*Of course, you risk power outages, etc.

[ashersky]

There are so many ways to exploit this QT issue, both in games where it is allowed and games where it is not.  Here's a made up example.  Everything between the lines is my example post in a game where QT quoting is NOT allowed.  Assume it is mid-way through Day 3.

Man, I wonder if that claim is for real, or if he's lying.  Compared to mine, it seems pretty tame...

Here was my immediate reaction when faust claimed his power.  I didn't put it in thread at the time because I wasn't ready to claim and I was still gauging everyone else's reactions, but I'm quoting it now so you can see how I really felt about it at the time.


Did I break your rule for making mafia games more perfect?  Do I get modkilled?

[faust]

I think many people who are against QT quoting overestimate the difficulty of making up QT quotes in the spot. Just because it has not been done yet doesn't mean it is impossible. I mean, you will have your game notes, just modify them a bit and you'll get a decent series of quotes.

The problem is not that it's difficult, the problem is that it takes time. If a townie is asked to copy paste his QT, he can do so in two minutes. You can't fabricate an entire game's worth of QT in two minutes, and then you'll get lynched because the townie's QT quotes were confirmed to be real while yours were not.

I think it is in the very nature of the game that playing scum well takes more effort than playing town well. This is just one example for that. It's not optimal, but it's nothing you could change.

[faust]

Did I break your rule for making mafia games more perfect?  Do I get modkilled?

I'd prefer it if people would not be hostile here. This is not a game, we do not rely on AtE, we can all just be civil. Thank you. This does not apply only to ashersky.

The way I see it is this: Some thing happened that showed people an easy way of "getting better" at the game as town - making QT posts and show them to people. As a result, in the future, the level at which we play may be higher, which means that scum has to keep up. But then scum is facing the problem inherent to mafia that playing better requires more work for them.

I agree with Teproc that this is an issue. I agree with ashersky that it is not an issue that can be solved by rules while still playing a game of mafia.

[Awaclus]

Awaclus is using hyperbole to be contrarian and to try to prove his point.  You just divide anything he says by like 2000 and you get a realistic amount of whatever it is he's shoveling.

Maybe in an open setup you sometimes only have to do like 5 or fewer different narratives, but in a semi-open, you're usually looking at 10+ different narratives and in a closed setup, the only limit will literally be the fact that there are only 24 hours every day.

If a players creates his own QT for notes, there's no way a mod knows it exists so there's no way a mod can police it.  A player could post a lot of text and claim it is from a QT and the mod doesn't know if it is or isn't if the mod doesn't have access.

At that point, it's a honor system rule, right?  One that's easily manipulated without breaking.

The only thing that matters is that town is under the impression that it's paraphrased (i.e. the player takes enough time posting it that it seems believable that he could write all of that text in that time).

There are so many ways to exploit this QT issue, both in games where it is allowed and games where it is not.  Here's a made up example.  Everything between the lines is my example post in a game where QT quoting is NOT allowed.  Assume it is mid-way through Day 3.

Man, I wonder if that claim is for real, or if he's lying.  Compared to mine, it seems pretty tame...

Here was my immediate reaction when faust claimed his power.  I didn't put it in thread at the time because I wasn't ready to claim and I was still gauging everyone else's reactions, but I'm quoting it now so you can see how I really felt about it at the time.


Did I break your rule for making mafia games more perfect?  Do I get modkilled?

That would be allowed and it's not "exploiting" the QT issue. There is absolutely nothing problematic about a post like that.

I think it is in the very nature of the game that playing scum well takes more effort than playing town well. This is just one example for that. It's not optimal, but it's nothing you could change.

Well yeah, but if it is in the very nature of the game that I have to skip school and transcend the need to sleep in order to play scum well, it's not really a game that I want to play.

[Teproc]

At that point, it's a honor system rule, right?  One that's easily manipulated without breaking.

I think there's a major difference between an unstated honor system and a unenforcable rule.

If you look at it, plenty of rules are unenforcable. For example if two scum players decided to daychat via PM, nothing could stop them from doing so. It would clearly be against the rule, there'd be no way for anyone outside to know, but we trust people to follow the rules because otherwise why even play ?

An honor system that's not stated does not work, because people have different view of what's fine to do and what isn't. This is why I'm not worried about the practicality of making a rule here, even if it is technically impossible to enforce.

In my mind, your example ash would be against the rules because you're quoting. However, this would be fine :

When he claimed, I was unsure because his claim seemed pretty tame compared to mine

Just a blanket rule saying "don't quote from anywhere else than the thread" seems fine to me. I don't think it prevents people from doing what yuma's describing, because that's not quoting that's copy-pasting. It's like when people progressively catch up, and you see them posting without knowledge of some major thing that's happened. That's not a problem because it's very limited in nature. Mafiascum you can just link to. I guess you could link to the QT you created yourself...

Maybe faust is right, but I don't like it.

[Teproc]

I guess you were saying kind of the same thing ash, maybe we were referring to a different proposed rule.