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[Teproc]

If enough of us outright refuse to post things from our QT in the game, we're good. Sign a petition or something.

Why not change the rules ?

The problem with yuma's approach, or more accurately the reason it doesn't work for me personally, is that I think quoting your QT is just a great move for town, especially PR!town. Not doing it feels like losing a huge opportunity to make my faction more likely to win (if I'm at risk of being lynched).

[yuma]

If enough of us outright refuse to post things from our QT in the game, we're good. Sign a petition or something.

Why not change the rules ?

The problem with yuma's approach, or more accurately the reason it doesn't work for me personally, is that I think quoting your QT is just a great move for town, especially PR!town. Not doing it feels like losing a huge opportunity to make my faction more likely to win (if I'm at risk of being lynched).

I guess I don't understand the attitude of doing things that are harmful for the overall enjoyment of the game for the sake of winning the game.

But we seem to disagree on this point on multiple fronts...

[Awaclus]

I guess I don't understand the attitude of doing things that are harmful for the overall enjoyment of the game for the sake of winning the game.

Not doing everything in your power to win the game is more harmful for the overall enjoyment than anything else. If you're not trying to win, why even play the game?

[Teproc]

If enough of us outright refuse to post things from our QT in the game, we're good. Sign a petition or something.

Why not change the rules ?

The problem with yuma's approach, or more accurately the reason it doesn't work for me personally, is that I think quoting your QT is just a great move for town, especially PR!town. Not doing it feels like losing a huge opportunity to make my faction more likely to win (if I'm at risk of being lynched).

I guess I don't understand the attitude of doing things that are harmful for the overall enjoyment of the game for the sake of winning the game.

But we seem to disagree on this point on multiple fronts...

The fact of the matter is : it's not that harmful. All it does is make the game harder for me (and a few other people) when I roll scum. I believe playing in a way that allows you to be more comfortable in future games at the cost of your win percentage in the game you're currently playing is fundamentally against the spirit of the game, which assumes everyone is trying to win. This is important also because this is generally a team game, so you're not only playing for your own chances to win, so not doing the QT thing because I don't want to have to do it when I'm scum would feel like a betrayal of everyone else on my team, to me.

[yuma]

If it isn't that harmful then what is all the fuss about?

And I wouldn't do it because most of my thoughts posted in a QT wouldn't be worth sharing. Anything worth sharing would have already been posted in a QT. and if I am not posting things in the main thread to try and save them for my QT then that certainly is not benefiting my alignment.

And stop with "doing everything possible to win the game" crap. This is a fun, mildly interesting game not some sort of life or death match. Sometimes I reread. Sometimes I don't. Depends on what I have going on, how interested I am (how much I would enjoy it). No one cares if someone doesn't post a lot or doesn't do a full reread. Goodness, we even give town red when people don't read the setup. So I think people will live if I don't try and squeeze every last drop of benefit for town that when taken full advantage of practically ruins the whole premise of the game.

And the premise that I would only not reveal all of my QT posts just for the benefit of my scum games and at the expense of my town games is a gross misrepresentation of my reasons and frankly reveals a viewpoint of me that I don't think I ever did anything to deserve.

[Teproc]

I'm just answering your question as to why I see it that way, not saying anything about you.

I do assume people play with the intention to win the game, because not doing so basically breaks the game; THis is true of pretty much any game too.

[yuma]

If enough of us outright refuse to post things from our QT in the game, we're good. Sign a petition or something.

Why not change the rules ?

The problem with yuma's approach, or more accurately the reason it doesn't work for me personally, is that I think quoting your QT is just a great move for town, especially PR!town. Not doing it feels like losing a huge opportunity to make my faction more likely to win (if I'm at risk of being lynched).

I guess I don't understand the attitude of doing things that are harmful for the overall enjoyment of the game for the sake of winning the game.

But we seem to disagree on this point on multiple fronts...

The fact of the matter is : it's not that harmful. All it does is make the game harder for me (and a few other people) when I roll scum. I believe playing in a way that allows you to be more comfortable in future games at the cost of your win percentage in the game you're currently playing is fundamentally against the spirit of the game, which assumes everyone is trying to win. This is important also because this is generally a team game, so you're not only playing for your own chances to win, so not doing the QT thing because I don't want to have to do it when I'm scum would feel like a betrayal of everyone else on my team, to me.

The bolded is why I interpreted what you said was directed at me, but I see that could be more of just a way of phrasing things

[sudgy]

The problem with saying that you can't post anything not in the main thread is that it disallows things like mafiascum.  Shouldn't it be "You can't quote anything the mod or any player posted not in the main thread, but ask the mod if you think you have an edge case [for things like yuma]"?

Also, whatever is the result of this, I'll probably put it in the rules if nobody objects too strongly.

[ashersky]

Also, whatever is the result of this, I'll probably put it in the rules if nobody objects too strongly.

I'd object about as strongly as possible, but I assume you are talking about the sudgy rules thread, which doesn't impact me.

As most of you know, I'm (again) in the minority opinion on a fairly important tidbit for f.ds mafia.  In fact:

Obviously up to the mods' discretion, but I think I will favor games that forbid QT quoting from now on.

Here's one of our most respected, and successful, mafia players specifically stating he will be less likely to play in ashersky-created games (and games by other mods who disagree, such as yuma).  I think it's fairly clear that some other major players (silverspawn, Awaclus) agree to do the same.

This is basically the start of a schism in f.ds mafia, and to me it seems like a schism for such an insignificant thing.  Part of this may be that some of you didn't play with the original crew here, but there were players who specifically tracked all sorts of things in separate Word documents to analyse and post at a later date.

Your proposed ruling would ban, just off the top of my head:

--tracking the voting records of yourself or other players anywhere outside of the game thread for posting at a later date, requiring that a player either do the tracking and analysis on the spot in the game thread (or lie and said they did).
--keeping track of what they see as scummy posts in a separate location with their thoughts as to why for posting later as part of a case
--any statistical analysis based on posting patterns based on time of day, etc.

I know for a fact that some players used to do this when they played.

The fact of the matter is, by banning the use of another location/document/save file to keep track of anything related to the game is closing off creative space for both town and scum.  It reduces the number of tools at anyone's disposal, and it shrinks design space for mods.

I find Awaclus an add proponent of this rule, given he's not the most talkative or active poster in any game anyway, and no one would expect him to have a QT.  I do think the people raging against this tactic are the ones who already like to write a lot, and feel like they need to write more to stay on top.

I disagree.  Refuse to post your QT, even if you have one.  Get mislynched once for it and there's a track record.  Berate town for their stupidity afterward.  Or, as soon as one scum successfully replicates this (which is legitimately so incredibly easy to do), whoever out there is giving out too much town cred for the QT paste will stop.

And again, what's to stop the forced paraphrasing of QTs?  "Teproc, paraphrase every single one of your QT posts or we will lynch you for being anti-town."  That's just as "valid" as "Teproc, quote every single one of your QT posts or we will lynch you for being anti-town."  In fact, I could promise to do that.

My next game, Walking Dead RMM, will have personal QTs.  You know I won't implement this rule you are discussing -- should I stop working on it because it won't fill due to that?  I've put in hours already, and still have hours to go.  I don't want to waste that time if my lack of a rule means no one will play.

[ashersky]

Relevant, for anyone who is going this route:

http://www.plagiarism.org/citing-sources/how-to-paraphrase/
https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/619/1/

[Awaclus]

The problem with saying that you can't post anything not in the main thread is that it disallows things like mafiascum.

You can still link to it.

[ashersky]

The problem with saying that you can't post anything not in the main thread is that it disallows things like mafiascum.

You can still link to it.

Unless the player himself created that page.

[Awaclus]

Your proposed ruling would ban, just off the top of my head:

--tracking the voting records of yourself or other players anywhere outside of the game thread for posting at a later date, requiring that a player either do the tracking and analysis on the spot in the game thread (or lie and said they did).
--keeping track of what they see as scummy posts in a separate location with their thoughts as to why for posting later as part of a case
--any statistical analysis based on posting patterns based on time of day, etc.

It wouldn't ban any of those. You just can't use the exact same wording, which hurts nobody.

I find Awaclus an add proponent of this rule, given he's not the most talkative or active poster in any game anyway, and no one would expect him to have a QT.

The problem is not that people would give me scum reads for not doing it, the problem is that a townie can be given a town read for doing it, which means that I'm inherently disadvantaged unless I update 10 fake QTs every time someone makes a post in the main thread. Since I like to think very carefully about the wordings I use, that might take easily take me five hours. There are things in my life that I would like to do a lot more than updating fake QTs (most of which I'm never even going to actually post) such as sleeping, studying, and a whole bunch of other stuff that I would simply be unable to do if I actually played a scum game without a rule that prevents QTs from being copypasted.

I disagree.  Refuse to post your QT, even if you have one.  Get mislynched once for it and there's a track record.

Getting mislynched does not help me win that particular game.

And again, what's to stop the forced paraphrasing of QTs?  "Teproc, paraphrase every single one of your QT posts or we will lynch you for being anti-town."  That's just as "valid" as "Teproc, quote every single one of your QT posts or we will lynch you for being anti-town."  In fact, I could promise to do that.

Nothing. Being forced to paraphrase a QT is not a problem because you don't actually need to have the QT in that case.

My next game, Walking Dead RMM, will have personal QTs.  You know I won't implement this rule you are discussing -- should I stop working on it because it won't fill due to that?  I've put in hours already, and still have hours to go.  I don't want to waste that time if my lack of a rule means no one will play.

Well, I can join the game if I'm allowed to /out if I roll scum.

[ashersky]

It wouldn't ban any of those. You just can't use the exact same wording, which hurts nobody.

This can be applied to the QTs you are discussing banning already.

[ashersky]

My next game, Walking Dead RMM, will have personal QTs.  You know I won't implement this rule you are discussing -- should I stop working on it because it won't fill due to that?  I've put in hours already, and still have hours to go.  I don't want to waste that time if my lack of a rule means no one will play.

Well, I can join the game if I'm allowed to /out if I roll scum.

No.

[Awaclus]

It wouldn't ban any of those. You just can't use the exact same wording, which hurts nobody.

This can be applied to the QTs you are discussing banning already.

Being forced to paraphrase a QT is not a problem because you don't actually need to have the QT in that case.

[ashersky]

It wouldn't ban any of those. You just can't use the exact same wording, which hurts nobody.

This can be applied to the QTs you are discussing banning already.

Being forced to paraphrase a QT is not a problem because you don't actually need to have the QT in that case.

You realize this is ridiculous, right?

If town forces everyone to paraphrase tens or hundreds of QT posts, it's infinitely worse than just copy/pasting tens or hundreds of QT posts.

If you have seventeen posts in your QT, it is going to be more work attempting to paraphrase them than just copying them.
If you have to fake seventeen posts in your QT, it is equal work to fake paraphrase them or writing them before so they are around to copy.

You are asking for a rule to forbid the easier of the two options, thereby forcing everyone to prefer the much more onerous option for more players.

[Awaclus]

You realize this is ridiculous, right?

If town forces everyone to paraphrase tens or hundreds of QT posts, it's infinitely worse than just copy/pasting tens or hundreds of QT posts.

If you have seventeen posts in your QT, it is going to be more work attempting to paraphrase them than just copying them.
If you have to fake seventeen posts in your QT, it is equal work to fake paraphrase them or writing them before so they are around to copy.

You are asking for a rule to forbid the easier of the two options, thereby forcing everyone to prefer the much more onerous option for more players.

You don't "have to fake seventeen posts in your QT". The "QT" is not a singular. In a closed setup, you would need to update hundreds of fake QTs. Having to fake 17 posts in each of them means having to fake thousands of posts in total.

[ashersky]

You realize this is ridiculous, right?

If town forces everyone to paraphrase tens or hundreds of QT posts, it's infinitely worse than just copy/pasting tens or hundreds of QT posts.

If you have seventeen posts in your QT, it is going to be more work attempting to paraphrase them than just copying them.
If you have to fake seventeen posts in your QT, it is equal work to fake paraphrase them or writing them before so they are around to copy.

You are asking for a rule to forbid the easier of the two options, thereby forcing everyone to prefer the much more onerous option for more players.

You don't "have to fake seventeen posts in your QT". The "QT" is not a singular. In a closed setup, you would need to update hundreds of fake QTs. Having to fake 17 posts in each of them means having to fake thousands of posts in total.

What hundreds of QTs are you faking?

There's the personal QT you are either given by the mod or you created yourself.  That's it.  No one, and I mean no one, is creating hundreds of QTs a game for their own use.

[Haddock]

My two cents - I'm completely with ash on this one.  People have always been allowed to quote verbatim from notes they've made themselves, and it's right that they should be allowed to do so.  QTs are no different.

The question of whether or not scum are going to have to fake loads of QTs is irrelevant.  As far as I can see, it's going to be just as hard to "paraphrase" an imaginary QT as it is to "quote" an imaginary QT. 
So, if it becomes a meta thing that people will often be asked to quote/paraphrase a QT, then scum who are usually QT-using-townies are going to have a lot of work to do.  That's going to be the case whether or not QT quoting is allowed.

I do agree that such a meta change would be unfortunate. 
But
a) I don't believe that control of the overall meta is or should be in the hands of the mods and
b) I don't think that that will actually happen, for various reasons.  Ash has already made a solid point on this front.  Let's take Teproc for instance.  As the first person to do this, we all know he writes quite a bit in QTs.  So there's a good chance he'll be asked to do this in games if this starts to become a thing.  Now either he carries on doing so, in which case he puts a lot of work on himself as scum.  Or, if that thought is not appealing, he can stop willingly posting his QT, in which case he might get mislynched once and then the practice will stop because people realise it's not an alignment tell.
In reality I think people are sensible on the whole anyway, and are going to realise already that not posting your QT is not an alignment tell at all.  On the flipside, posting a long and convincing QT seems like an advantage to townies until one person fakes it once - and then people will realise that it's not reliable either way, and we'll all move on.

gkrieg (I believe it was) made a solid point as well.  This is something that can only be controlled by the Golden Rule and shouldn't be governed by mods.

Those are my thoughts on it anyway.  I don't see that this should cause a huge great schism in forum mafia if we're sensible about it.  The fact is that some games will be played with rules we don't entirely agree with.  I think on the whole people who play forum mafia here are mature enough not to stay out of a game just because they disagree with one mod rule about QT posting.

[Haddock]

Oh crap.  Someone who can, feel free to delete that.  I thought I was modifying that "can (be controlled by the Golden Rule)" to a should.  I'm an idiot.

[Awaclus]

What hundreds of QTs are you faking?

There's the personal QT you are either given by the mod or you created yourself.  That's it.  No one, and I mean no one, is creating hundreds of QTs a game for their own use.

You are faking the VT QT, the Cop QT, the Doctor QT, the Jailkeeper QT, the 1-shot Bulletproof QT, the Roleblocker QT, the Vigilante QT, and another QT for each of the possible fake claims you might want to use at some point during the game. If you don't do that, you are playing suboptimally on purpose, and at that point, you might as well not play at all.

[Awaclus]

Oh crap.  Someone who can, feel free to delete that.

Done!

Mostly I just wanted to try it out since I've never had the power to delete other people's posts before.

[silverspawn]

My next game, Walking Dead RMM, will have personal QTs.  You know I won't implement this rule you are discussing -- should I stop working on it because it won't fill due to that?  I've put in hours already, and still have hours to go.  I don't want to waste that time if my lack of a rule means no one will play.

Well, I for one will join your game either way

[ashersky]

What hundreds of QTs are you faking?

There's the personal QT you are either given by the mod or you created yourself.  That's it.  No one, and I mean no one, is creating hundreds of QTs a game for their own use.

You are faking the VT QT, the Cop QT, the Doctor QT, the Jailkeeper QT, the 1-shot Bulletproof QT, the Roleblocker QT, the Vigilante QT, and another QT for each of the possible fake claims you might want to use at some point during the game. If you don't do that, you are playing suboptimally on purpose, and at that point, you might as well not play at all.

Um, okay.

You could use one QT and label each post as "fake cop" or "fake doc" or whatever, and then cut and paste as appropriate.  Then it's only one QT.

Or there are a million others ways to do it.  Having a fake QT for every possible fakeclaim in a game is just your way.