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Author Topic: Scavenger / Masterpiece?  (Read 4037 times)

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Dingan

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Scavenger / Masterpiece?
« on: February 02, 2016, 01:39:18 am »
+3

I usually like to post the most complicated boards I come across in my Dominion endeavors here, and try to stump the experts.  But this here is a (seemingly?) very simple board.



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Haven, Fortune Teller, Masterpiece, Sage, Bureaucrat, Horse Traders, Ironmonger, Scavenger, Silk Road, Mystic
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?http://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160201/log.0.1454307027232.txt

I see nothing really going on.  No thinning, no draw, no strong >=$5 cards, no Colonies.  So I pretty much go double-Scavenger, as I feel that is kind of a thing when there's nothing much else going on.  I also go Masterpiece on my first $7, and Gold on $6.  My deck gets pretty strong, there's no real slowing it down, and I eventually start greening.

But my opponent is picking up Silk Roads.  And they're also picking up Estates when they can (Horse Traders).  They end up beating me, barely.

So my question is: Is Silk Road really a thing when there is nothing much going on except +buy?  Or should Scavenger / Masterpiece beat it?  Did I misplay?  When?  I realize it was very close and I had $7 once near the end, where $8 would have put me in a strong position to win.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 02:05:25 am by Dingan »
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Titandrake

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Re: Scavenger / Masterpiece?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2016, 02:49:52 am »
+4

I'm not sure about this board either, but I would have gone for Silk Road. I think I would have opened with Scavenger, then picked up HT.

HT/Duke is a thing. Is HT/Silk Road a thing? By itself, maybe not. In a game with little else going on? More likely. With Masterpiece or Bureaucrat as options to flood Silver into the deck to keep up economy? That seems good enough for me to go for it.

On turn 12, I'm not sure why you buy a 3rd Scavenger with $6. Yes, you guarantee Scavenger topdeck Scavenger, but I don't think that extra chance is worth the Gold or Duchy or SR you could have had.

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Dingan

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Re: Scavenger / Masterpiece?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2016, 02:57:39 am »
0

On turn 12, I'm not sure why you buy a 3rd Scavenger with $6.

My 2 Scavengers had collided, so I was basically increasing my probability of having that not happen again.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 03:00:29 am by Dingan »
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Titandrake

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Re: Scavenger / Masterpiece?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2016, 03:31:48 am »
0

On turn 12, I'm not sure why you buy a 3rd Scavenger with $6.

My 2 Scavengers had collided, so I was basically increasing my probability of having that not happen again.

Right, I get that it increases the probability, but I don't think that's worth Gold or worth Duchy or worth Silk Road.
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dedicateddan

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Re: Scavenger / Masterpiece?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2016, 04:11:51 am »
+3

With three Horse Traders, your opponent is pretty committed to Silk Road. The plan is to cut around 3 Silk Road before emptying the provinces. Alternatively, Silk Road with better Province/Duchy support can win the mirror.

Turn 7: Consider masterpiece overpay for 7 over province here for more staying power on the provinces
Turn 9 & Turn 12: Green cards are better than building here, both for points and to cut VP away from opposing Silk Roads
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Re: Scavenger / Masterpiece?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2016, 07:16:29 am »
+1

T7 is absolutely another Masterpiece overpay.  Especially with your opponent already signaling SRs.  But even if he was mirroring you I would get the extra Silvers on the 3rd Masterpiece.
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AdamH

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Re: Scavenger / Masterpiece?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2016, 07:28:29 am »
0

So my question is: Is Silk Road really a thing when there is nothing much going on except +buy?

To answer this question, I mean, no? But on this board there's quite a bit going on to support Silk Road.

Horse Traders and Masterpiece are amazeballs for Silk Roads. Haven, Bureaucrat, and Scavenger are all good as well, but I don't know if they find much use given the other support (maybe Haven does?)

A lot of times with cards like Silk Road and Feodum (or even Duke) people just commit to using those cards as their only source of VP the entire game when in many cases that's not correct. In Feodum games it's almost never correct to ignore Provinces -- you have a deck full of Silver, of course you'll be hitting $8!

With Silk Roads, the trick is knowing how long to build and I believe that depends quite a bit on what your opponent does. That's a tough call to make for even the best of players (except for maybe WW)
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DG

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Re: Scavenger / Masterpiece?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2016, 09:11:47 am »
0

Your opponent's deck is competitive. 41 points in 16 turns is always going to be promising with a pile of silk roads in the deck. I think the draws are good but we have to assume it is a competitive strategy.

I'm not convinced that scavenger-masterpiece combo offers much. Scavenger works by finding singular good cards rather than bloating a deck with average cards. The scavengers don't break the problem of hitting 7 coin hands in a masterpiece based deck. After turn 11 you are putting the scavenger on top of the deck instead of gold which means you could easily run into a sequence of those 6-7 coin hands. An extended duchy buying game is never in your favor. As mentioned before, if you are going to use the scavenger to always find the other scavenger then you don't need 3.
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Re: Scavenger / Masterpiece?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2016, 02:16:08 pm »
+5

So my question is: Is Silk Road really a thing when there is nothing much going on except +buy?

To answer this question, I mean, no? But on this board there's quite a bit going on to support Silk Road.

Horse Traders and Masterpiece are amazeballs for Silk Roads. Haven, Bureaucrat, and Scavenger are all good as well, but I don't know if they find much use given the other support (maybe Haven does?)


I would say that in the absence of anything else, then yes, SR are going to be a big factor, but on the other hand, the absence of anything else is quite rare, so its perhaps not a very useful question.

HT is pretty good, though I'm not sure that BCrat isn't better. Masterpiece is probably better than either, at least in a not-mirror, but it's not entirely trivial. Scavenger I think doesn't help a slog as much as it does just about every other strategy.


@OP
To that end, Scavenger and Masterpiece really seem to anti-synergize. Scavenger likes having one bullet that it can take you back to over and over. Masterpiece makes your deck thick and even and resilient. Basically, I assume Scavenger wants Gold a lot more than a pile of silvers.

In the actual game, I think you're making a pretty big mistake by Scavenging Scavenger every time. I mean, you get a terminal silver every turn plus
4 random cards... that's not really all that good. In general, I do like your opponents strategy here, but it's not entirely clear. If we take a look at your decks after turn 7, you have 3 extra silvers, a gold, and 2 Scavengers against 3 HT and a Haven, and you also have a Province against a Silk Road. I think you should, form a theoretical standpoint, be ahead here? You have better money, and he has buys. So the thing about this is, your money is better for getting provinces, and his buys are going to be better at trading blows for SR. Which means you need to plan to win the game by getting more Provinces than him. HOWEVER that doesn't necessarily mean you ignore SR entirely. You have kind of 2 options: the first is ignore the SR more or less entirely and basically try to empty the Provinces fairly quickly, perhaps snapping up some cheaper VP toward the end. On the other hand, you could try to race down SR going blow for blow with him until they're gone, and then pivot towards getting some provinces and winning that way. This second plan has the benefit of forcing him to green very fast, turning his deck into a lot of green, and hopefully making it implode. The big factor is that SR run and Estates run, but there's no third pile, which means you have a lot of time to get Provinces. So this is the road I tend to favor. If it turns out that even in that case, he is just fast enough to get too many points, that means you either needed to race Provinces faster or possibly, that you just started to green too late (which probably means your whole conception is flawed).

You played, it seemed, mostly for the "race to provinces" plan, which I think isn't as good, but ok, it's not so clear or so bad necessarily. Let's take a look where you end up when the SR run out on turn 12. You have an extra Gold compared to before, you picked up 1 SR and 2 more Provinces. In addition to his SR, he was also able to get another silver. Fine. You have a 4 point lead at the moment, which is good, but he has 7 SR which are right about to level up. Ok. So going long, every VP card is worth an extra 7/4 of a point on average for him, as opposed to only an extra 1/4 point for you. Your economy is significantly better than his at this point, with more money and less junk, but even though you're nominally ahead on points, in reality he is better positioned in green cards. Which means you need the game to end sooner rather than later, or in any case, you need to get a lot of Provinces fast - his deck is still good enough to get a good number of Duchies along with Estates more or less at will.

If we assume at this point that he can't get to any Provinces (and even if he can, he may well not want to), then we can look at, if you get them all, what does that do for you? 5 Provinces added to your tally is 32 more points, bringing you up to 54. This is equalled by only 6 duchies from your opponent, or 6 estates and 3 duchies. Better than that and he has you more or less cooked. In all honesty, you're in quite bad shape, so it seems like you needed to do something different before now, BUT I will say that you aren't 100% dead. However, trading Duchies with him doesn't help - indeed it actually makes things worse, because you're further away from getting those Provinces you need. So it's very important you focus on getting Provinces above all else. That means you should prefer Province over everything (obviously), Gold over everything else, and then we can quibble but probably Scavenger is 3rd-best for a while. I suppose a Masterpiece wouldn't be bad on e.g. 7, and it's possible one or two of your earlier Provinces should have been very big Masterpieces, but again, this is not clear or easy, especially at the time.

Instead of this, you play a game to maximise having Scavenger + 4 randoms every turn. And that's a fine hand, a slightly above-average hand, but it's just not good enough here - you aren't going to hit Province often enough. You really want the Gold as much as you can get it, so you should be placing it on top as much as you can. You will probably still lose, but you have a better chance, I think.



Quote
With Silk Roads, the trick is knowing how long to build and I believe that depends quite a bit on what your opponent does. That's a tough call to make for even the best of players (except for maybe WW)

It's definitely a tough call for me. I screw it up a LOT - it's just that I tend to screw it up a bit less than most other people. But that's because it's really complicated and interesting and difficult (also I'm not sure I'm really that much better than other top players here, at least not uniformly. But thanks).
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