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Author Topic: Come closer and witness the Spells and Wonders of the Great and Powerful Asper!  (Read 11883 times)

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Asper

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+4

No seriously, come closer. I can hardly see you back there. Woha, is this a new Dominion concept behind your ear? Where did that come from?

These are a quick idea i had when i thought about what Donald might do next. It's partly inspired by 461.weavile's Medallions (Warlords and Wizards):

Spells are effects similar to Events, which you can buy during your buy phase. They don't go into your deck. Instead, you have 5 tokens in your colour, which you put on (or next to) the Spell card. That Spell is now "prepared". Either way, to actually use a Spell, you have to play a kingdom card that tells you to cast them, and by casting a Spell, you lose the token again. Naturally, you can have up to five Spells prepared, as many of any as you like. Each time a Spell-casting kingdom card is in the supply, 3 Spells are chosen at random to be available. I decided to include a new type after some feedback convinced me it was reasonable.





Be aware, dear observers: For the novelty and pure magic of this new concept, several prices will be off.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 08:36:39 am by Asper »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Spells
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2016, 03:53:11 pm »
+1

A mat or player board with tokens for tracking amount was the best idea I had for doing coin token equivalents for the other vanilla bonuses, since having a bunch of action tokens, buy tokens and card tokens would be annoying.  With Spells, you can get much more varied effects.  Maybe it could have a more modular approach:

The player board is used to track how many you have of generic spells A, B, C, D and E (maybe you just put generic tokens on a spot for each).  When you use a kingdom card that can cast spells, you also randomly deal 5 spells which are then labelled A-E for that game.
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Asper

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Re: Spells
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2016, 11:29:28 am »
0

A mat or player board with tokens for tracking amount was the best idea I had for doing coin token equivalents for the other vanilla bonuses, since having a bunch of action tokens, buy tokens and card tokens would be annoying.  With Spells, you can get much more varied effects.  Maybe it could have a more modular approach:

The player board is used to track how many you have of generic spells A, B, C, D and E (maybe you just put generic tokens on a spot for each).  When you use a kingdom card that can cast spells, you also randomly deal 5 spells which are then labelled A-E for that game.

Hm, of course that means you'd need six of every spell... And a board... And 3-5 tokens for the Spells... Or you just have 6 smaller boards per Spell...
Or, maybe better, one shared board per Spell, with 3-5 tokens per player showing where they areon the respective Spell mat...

Like: eHalcion has his Spell token on position 2 of the "Glory" mat and position 0 of the "Insight" mat... Asper has his Spell token on position 1 of both, etc...

Idefinitely like the idea of modular Spell choices. Dominion is modular, why not extend this here. I don't think balance would be the issue.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Spells
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2016, 12:33:35 pm »
+1

You would only need one copy of each spell.  The point of the generic labels is to avoid needing 6 copies.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding how you want it all to work...
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Asper

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Re: Spells
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2016, 12:51:56 pm »
+1

You would only need one copy of each spell.  The point of the generic labels is to avoid needing 6 copies.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding how you want it all to work...

I think i misunderstood you. You are saying each player has a mat that works as a table with, let's say, 5 letters on it. These 5 reference five randomly drawn Spell cards. So six mats, one of each Spell card, five tokens per player, and either a mat or some ABCDE tokens for labeling would be needed.

My idea was having only one mat per Spell, randomly drawn, and the tokens. The mat could contain all information needed, including price, effect and a counter where each player moves when he buys one.

My solution doesn't feel very Dominion-ish, but it reduces the total material count. Yours on the other hand needs only one generic kind of mat, although i find the mapping to be a bit harder to follow. Maybe if it were just three or four Spells per game, and they would be color coded.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Spells
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2016, 01:35:07 pm »
+1

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

Alternative solution: each player has their own colour-coded generic tokens.  When you get a Spell, put a token on the Spell card (or below it, to keep text visible).  When you use a spell, remove the token.  No mats or mapping required, but need slightly less-generic tokens, more tokens in total.  On the plus side, the generic tokens in player colours could have more possible uses.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 01:36:25 pm by eHalcyon »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Spells
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2016, 05:51:57 pm »
+1

Do spells get used up when you cast them? Otherwise, why would you want to have more than one of each?
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Asper

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Re: Spells
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2016, 06:20:22 pm »
0

Do spells get used up when you cast them? Otherwise, why would you want to have more than one of each?

Yes, they are used and go away.

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

Alternative solution: each player has their own colour-coded generic tokens.  When you get a Spell, put a token on the Spell card (or below it, to keep text visible).  When you use a spell, remove the token.  No mats or mapping required, but need slightly less-generic tokens, more tokens in total.  On the plus side, the generic tokens in player colours could have more possible uses.

So, i have, let's say, 8 tokens per player color (6*8=48), and players can put those below/around/on the Spell cards. If there are only 3-4 Spells each game, i can imagine this working. I like how this means you can't have a max of every Spell, just a max total. On the other hand, i could also imagine different Spells having a different max count, which also had something going for it. I'll playtest a version with a max of 8 Spells total per player once exams are done, i think.
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Asper

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Re: Spells
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2016, 08:00:04 pm »
+1

I feel terrible for neglecting my studies. Why do you guys do this to me? Oh wait, it's my own fault. Either way....

Everybody loves pictures, right?



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eHalcyon

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Re: Spells
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2016, 08:04:04 pm »
+1

Which implementation are you going with?  If you're going with the tokens in my recent suggestion, "take a Spell" doesn't make much sense.  Not sure of better word though... "place a Spell token"?
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Asper

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Re: Spells
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2016, 08:08:59 pm »
+1

Which implementation are you going with?  If you're going with the tokens in my recent suggestion, "take a Spell" doesn't make much sense.  Not sure of better word though... "place a Spell token"?

"Take a Spell", for now, just means "increment the amount of Spells you can cast by 1". It's not tied to any specific implementation. Depending on what i decide to do (and this might change after a bit of playtesting), i will alter the wording approriately. Having not decided yet, i'd say it in fact means "place a Spell token". As it's very unclear to me how well this will work, and what limits i should try, i went with using the unchanged wording. There's not much consistence here, it's very experimental.

I'd say "give me a bit of time", but i won't be able to test those before next week. Either way, i have not forgotten your suggestions.
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Davio

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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2016, 04:56:36 am »
+1

I like the idea, but I would like it if it was easier to actually get and cast Spells.

Maybe the spell casters can have something like "when you gain this, gain a Spell costing up to $X".

Alternatively, you could assign levels to the Spells and change the caster texts to something like "you may cast a Spell up to level X".
So a cheap caster can only cast lvl 1 Spells and the most expensive casters can cast the most powerful Spells.

You could make it even more awesome by doing some sort of traveler line from sorcerer's apprentice all the way to archmage, being able to cast more powerful Spells as they level up.
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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2016, 06:37:11 am »
+1

Yeah, there needs to be a way to always gain spells if you have cards that can cast them. It would suck to have a card that can cast a spell but have no way to gain spells. Otherwise, I love the concept
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Davio

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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2016, 07:10:49 am »
+2

You could also use something like a die to indicate your current max spell level and just add 1 after you used a spell caster.

So first spell caster can only pick lvl 0 skills (maybe they are like Ruins) and after the spell is cast, you increase it and are able to cast lvl 1 spells, etc...

I also like the idea of having a random selection of spells available, say 5 out of 20 or so (maybe with lvl restrictions?, so always a lvl 0 skill and always a lvl 6 skill).
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Asper

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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2016, 07:40:45 am »
0

Yeah, there needs to be a way to always gain spells if you have cards that can cast them. It would suck to have a card that can cast a spell but have no way to gain spells. Otherwise, I love the concept

When a Spell-casting kingdom card is in the supply, you can buy Spells during your buy phase. I thought Magician makes this clear, although it's in the OP, too.

Also, you can't "gain" Spells, and they don't go into your deck. You can just add them to you pool of Spells, and when you cast them, they are gone again. They are one-shot effects triggered by supply cards. The original concept had you take a copy of a Spell card and place it next to your deck when you bought a Spell. You still can have multiples of a Spell at your disposal, and it's just the exact solution i'm not sure on.

I hope this makes a bit clearer how these are supposed to work.


You could also use something like a die to indicate your current max spell level and just add 1 after you used a spell caster.

So first spell caster can only pick lvl 0 skills (maybe they are like Ruins) and after the spell is cast, you increase it and are able to cast lvl 1 spells, etc...

I also like the idea of having a random selection of spells available, say 5 out of 20 or so (maybe with lvl restrictions?, so always a lvl 0 skill and always a lvl 6 skill).

While this is interesting, and probably worth a shot on its own, it doesn't have much in common with my original idea. I just wanted Spells to be a mix of Reserve/Event that you buy, keep next to your deck, and can use when you play a card that goes with it. Your idea reminds me a bit too much of Thunderstone, and is also more complex. To a certain degree, it actually "reduces" Spellcasters to a Traveller chain where each Traveller has a bunch of "choose one"'s, with the selection of what you choose being determined at random during setup.

I really think i'm happy with my buy-variant for now.
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tristan

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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2016, 08:02:09 am »
+1

Looks like an interesting new mechanism. Spellcasting cards are obviously stronger in Kingdoms that provide extra Buys as a lot of the spells are cheap.
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Davio

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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2016, 08:39:03 am »
+1

Yeah, there needs to be a way to always gain spells if you have cards that can cast them. It would suck to have a card that can cast a spell but have no way to gain spells. Otherwise, I love the concept

When a Spell-casting kingdom card is in the supply, you can buy Spells during your buy phase. I thought Magician makes this clear, although it's in the OP, too.

Also, you can't "gain" Spells, and they don't go into your deck. You can just add them to you pool of Spells, and when you cast them, they are gone again. They are one-shot effects triggered by supply cards. The original concept had you take a copy of a Spell card and place it next to your deck when you bought a Spell. You still can have multiples of a Spell at your disposal, and it's just the exact solution i'm not sure on.

I hope this makes a bit clearer how these are supposed to work.


You could also use something like a die to indicate your current max spell level and just add 1 after you used a spell caster.

So first spell caster can only pick lvl 0 skills (maybe they are like Ruins) and after the spell is cast, you increase it and are able to cast lvl 1 spells, etc...

I also like the idea of having a random selection of spells available, say 5 out of 20 or so (maybe with lvl restrictions?, so always a lvl 0 skill and always a lvl 6 skill).

While this is interesting, and probably worth a shot on its own, it doesn't have much in common with my original idea. I just wanted Spells to be a mix of Reserve/Event that you buy, keep next to your deck, and can use when you play a card that goes with it. Your idea reminds me a bit too much of Thunderstone, and is also more complex. To a certain degree, it actually "reduces" Spellcasters to a Traveller chain where each Traveller has a bunch of "choose one"'s, with the selection of what you choose being determined at random during setup.

I really think i'm happy with my buy-variant for now.
Okay, maybe I'll work something base on my idea which is somewhat based on your idea.
I've always liked having some kind of learning/experience mechanism.
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Asper

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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2016, 10:00:14 am »
0

Looks like an interesting new mechanism. Spellcasting cards are obviously stronger in Kingdoms that provide extra Buys as a lot of the spells are cheap.

Yes, probably. I thought about adding a +Buy to Magician, and have an idea for some more expensive Spells, too.

Not that what you observed is bad, but i'd like a bit more variety.
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Asper

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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2016, 12:24:59 pm »
0

You could also use something like a die to indicate your current max spell level and just add 1 after you used a spell caster.

So first spell caster can only pick lvl 0 skills (maybe they are like Ruins) and after the spell is cast, you increase it and are able to cast lvl 1 spells, etc...

I also like the idea of having a random selection of spells available, say 5 out of 20 or so (maybe with lvl restrictions?, so always a lvl 0 skill and always a lvl 6 skill).

Your reply gave me an idea how to implement something like your suggestion as a card within my rules:

Summoner, $4
You may cast a Spell.
Take a Spell costing up to $3.

Edit: Switched the order.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 02:32:43 pm by Asper »
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tristan

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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2016, 01:57:43 pm »
+1

You could also use something like a die to indicate your current max spell level and just add 1 after you used a spell caster.

So first spell caster can only pick lvl 0 skills (maybe they are like Ruins) and after the spell is cast, you increase it and are able to cast lvl 1 spells, etc...

I also like the idea of having a random selection of spells available, say 5 out of 20 or so (maybe with lvl restrictions?, so always a lvl 0 skill and always a lvl 6 skill).

Your reply gave me an idea how to implement something like your suggestion as a card within my rules:

Summoner, $4
Take a Spell costing up to $3.
You may cast a Spell.
The idea of a Spell Gainer is definitely good but the current version of Summoner would obviously be too strong with the current spells (especially Dexterity).
On the other hand you could simply switch the order such that you cast the Spell before you gain it to get rid of the immediacy and the hyperflexibility of Summoner.
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Asper

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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2016, 02:15:53 pm »
0

You could also use something like a die to indicate your current max spell level and just add 1 after you used a spell caster.

So first spell caster can only pick lvl 0 skills (maybe they are like Ruins) and after the spell is cast, you increase it and are able to cast lvl 1 spells, etc...

I also like the idea of having a random selection of spells available, say 5 out of 20 or so (maybe with lvl restrictions?, so always a lvl 0 skill and always a lvl 6 skill).

Your reply gave me an idea how to implement something like your suggestion as a card within my rules:

Summoner, $4
Take a Spell costing up to $3.
You may cast a Spell.
The idea of a Spell Gainer is definitely good but the current version of Summoner would obviously be too strong with the current spells (especially Dexterity).
On the other hand you could simply switch the order such that you cast the Spell before you gain it to get rid of the immediacy and the hyperflexibility of Summoner.

You are right. Switching the order also makes it more interesting.
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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2016, 02:16:59 pm »
+1

You could also use something like a die to indicate your current max spell level and just add 1 after you used a spell caster.

So first spell caster can only pick lvl 0 skills (maybe they are like Ruins) and after the spell is cast, you increase it and are able to cast lvl 1 spells, etc...

I also like the idea of having a random selection of spells available, say 5 out of 20 or so (maybe with lvl restrictions?, so always a lvl 0 skill and always a lvl 6 skill).

Your reply gave me an idea how to implement something like your suggestion as a card within my rules:

Summoner, $4
Take a Spell costing up to $3.
You may cast a Spell.

This also could be read as:

Summoner, $4
Choose one:
[list of all sorts of different effects of varying strength]

It sounds really strong. It also sounds like Band of Misfits.
[/list]
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Asper

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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2016, 02:32:19 pm »
0

You could also use something like a die to indicate your current max spell level and just add 1 after you used a spell caster.

So first spell caster can only pick lvl 0 skills (maybe they are like Ruins) and after the spell is cast, you increase it and are able to cast lvl 1 spells, etc...

I also like the idea of having a random selection of spells available, say 5 out of 20 or so (maybe with lvl restrictions?, so always a lvl 0 skill and always a lvl 6 skill).

Your reply gave me an idea how to implement something like your suggestion as a card within my rules:

Summoner, $4
Take a Spell costing up to $3.
You may cast a Spell.

This also could be read as:

Summoner, $4
Choose one:
[list of all sorts of different effects of varying strength]

It sounds really strong. It also sounds like Band of Misfits.
[/list]

Yes, this is why i'll go with tristan's suggestion and switch the order.
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Asper

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Re: Come one, come all, see the Spells of the Great and Powerful Asper!
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2016, 06:14:24 pm »
+1

Abracadabra. Co0kieL0rd and i tested some Spells today. Amazingly, they worked kind of well for the most part. We decided to stick with 3 Spells per game, and did two games. We played with the Spells lying in the kingdom, similar to Events, and each player owning 5 tokens in the respective player colours. When you buy a Spell, put your token there, when you cast one, remove the token. It worked.



The first kingdom had Trickster and Wizards, with the Spells being Wisdom, Purity and Power (new).




A noticeable problem on this board was a lack of +Buy, which we feared would render Spells rather useless. Given Wizard's Spell-preparation-skills ("prepare" means "place a token", btw), it kind of worked out. Wizard casting one or two Power Spells was a sure way to spike very high very early. Sadly, i decided to green much too early (curse you Wizards!), and then even trashed my Wizards for Provinces. Later i tried to use my stalling turns to get some magic for my few Tricksters, but it was too late and i lost :(

We played the game with a version of Wizard that only works on-buy, but i found out that the combo i tried to avoid when making it on-buy doesn't work either way, so i decided to revert that change afterwards. Power's special ability and Wizard's double-cast were kind of redundant. With more +Buy, who knows how good casting Power could have been.

Wisdom Spells and Trickster were nice. Purity works, but the mega-turn where you would use it to its greatest effect didn't happen here.  Either way, not the total disaster i feared.



The second game had these:




A notable thing about this game was the existance of Port. Man, it's really easy to play a few Magicians and get incredibly much money for a Wealth Spell once you invested in a few Ports. I won this one by a single point, using Glory to avoid stalling too early. It was a close one. Interestingly, Sorcerer didn't get used much simply because we were too eager to try ourself at Magician's crazy tricks, and another cantrip in the kingdom (my Artisan, which picks up -cost cards) was better to help with that. Either way, i feel Glory might be too cheap, but then i had the slight feeling most Spells might be. Magician definitely is the combo card here.
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Re: Spells (with images)
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2016, 06:59:58 pm »
+2

I like the "prepare a spell" wording.
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