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[Titandrake]

I've seen this debate happen a few times, and I'm still not sure which is better...

Pros of Amb/Amb
+ If they don't collide, you start the match with an early "tennis lead", which can snowball pretty quickly, especially if you can pick up a village.

Cons of Amb/Amb
-Early economy is kaput even more than normal. You're rarely getting a $5 card before the 2nd reshuffle
-If they collide, your early economy is REALLY kaput. Doesn't matter how slim your deck is, if their deck is reasonably sized and has 3 more Golds you're probably going to lose.

Pros of Amb/Silver
+ Early economy boost useful if there are some higher cost cards you need fast

Cons of Amb/Silver
-If the other player gets Amb/Amb and they don't collide, you're in a bad spot.
-Your early economy boost might not mean much, since you want a 2nd Ambassador on turn 3/4 anyways.

Does anyone here have more to comment on/say about this? Or how about Amb/non-terminal $4 openings?

[WanderingWinder]

Really depends on what's on the board. Villages heavily promote Amb/Amb. Any kind of big engine potential promotes Amb/Amb. If it's gonna be BM, Amb/Silver is a lot better. Also, there are lots of other specific cards that defend pretty well against ambassadors; some of them make you want to skip ambassador entirely.

[mnavratil]

Second to WanderingWinder. With villages, getting to a point where you can consistently play double ambassador turns is big; especially since this often allows a transition into ambassador being used to send over curses.

Also, if the opponent doesn't mirror the ambassador opening, I favor ambassador/silver.

[chwhite]

I tend to prefer Amb/Amb over Amb/Silver, but this is not a hard and fast rule, it depends on the board, and it's pretty close either way. 

There are quite a few cards that work better than Amb or Silver as the second opening slot.  Tournament and Caravan are fairly well-known.  Spice Merchant is also a great opener with Ambassador, one which I have been thrashed with several times recently and will no longer be neglecting.  Potion is elite if Apothecaries are out and I'll consider it with other Alchemy cards as well.  Fishing Village can be worth it, too, splitting the difference between building economy and building engine.

[RisingJaguar]

Most of the points have been laid out so i won't need to add much.  I do side on Amb/Amb, especially if i see my opponent go for it unless there are complementary $4s.

One other thing to consider is that Amb/Amb is better looking when there are playable/spammable $2 cards.  One of the problems with Ambs is that you will be stuck with $2 early without a silver.  Having actual useful things to buy will help not waste those early turns. 

Also, the presence of cursers will obviously promote amb/amb.  Pretty sure a good chunk knew that, but felt like stating the obvious. 

[ehunt]

one situation where amb/silver is better is when the only way to get +actions on the board is a five cost card, especially if that card is tactician.

strongly second that ambassador/potion on apothecary board is fantastic. (in this situation, you also get rid of E with ACCCE instead of nixing two coppers.)

if the only +2 actions is a 4-cost village, especially if it's walled village, i open ambassador/4-cost village and pick up an ambassador on the second shuffle.

i also prefer ambassador/scheme to ambassador/ambassador if there are no +actions cards.

[rrenaud]

Too bad guided isn't here to defend amb/silver.

[Kore]

Amb/Silver + BM beats Amb/Amb + BM 53/43 according to my preliminary simulations.

Adding pawn to the board makes it 52/44 which doesn't seem like much of an improvement.

[ackack]

Amb/Silver + BM beats Amb/Amb + BM 53/43 according to my preliminary simulations.

This is probably an abuse of the simulator, since the whole argument A/A partisans are making is that it's better in non BM situations.

I rarely go A/A, preferring the second Ambassador on turn 3 or 4. In general I think having the early Silver gives you some flexibility that you don't have if you go all out A/A. I agree with ehunt that Ambassador/Scheme is nice (I probably prefer it to A/A as an opening even if there are +action cards; if you want to multi-Amb you can worry about it later and not even have to worry about early collisions.), and an opening that I feel holds up pretty well is Ambassador/Throne Room.

[Kore]

Not sure double ambassador is any better for non big money strategies. Adjusting the simulator to play Boarder Village/Wharf (which easily beats BM), Amb/Silver wins out 53/44 over Amb/Amb. The border village/Wharf combo was chosen arbitrary and there may be better combos but given that double ambassador delays your first 5, I would say that any combo that depends on a 5 cost components isn't going to be a good one for double ambassador.

I'd expect double ambassador to do better with a combo that doesn't depend on 5+ cost cards.

[rrenaud]

What about amb/amb when there is a native village, shanty town, village, or hamlet?

[painted_cow]

Most of the time I go Amb/Silver. Most of you said the things that would me bring to Amb/Amb as well (cheap villages, or being second player).

[DG]

If there are good 5 cost cards in the supply you often want to reach for them early before your ambassadors leave you playing with 2 or 3 card hands. This is where ambassador/silver then second ambassador comes in. Good 2 cost cards favour ambassador/ambassador. Good and 3 and 4 cost cards give you an option to open with them instead.

If the kingdom doesn't punish an opponent for letting the deck expand, typically because there isn't enough drawing or extra actions, then don't look to the ambassador as a game winner. It's just there to give you an advantage for the next stage of deck development when you can expand with quality to score vp.

[Kore]

What about amb/amb when there is a native village, shanty town, village, or hamlet?

Amb/Amb + Shanty Town(s), Native Village(s), Village(s) or Hamlet(s) alone loses badly to Amb/Silver as you might expect. You need something else for the villages to be worthwhile and the only village strategy that I'm confident that the simulator plays well and beats BM + X consistently is Border Village/+Draw. There might be a conspirator chain deck that is better with double ambassador but I can't get the simulator to play it right.

Fishing Village/Wharf/Amb2 also loses to Fishing Village/Wharf/Amb1 60/39 though again this is just me quickly throwing together something in the simulator. A cheaper village isn't enough, it seems that losing out on that early wharf is enough to make Amb/Silver better.

[Axxle]

Too bad guided isn't here to defend amb/silver.

I do remember someone advocating Amb/Silver/Amb being superior to Amb/Amb/Silver, I don't recall who it was at the moment, want to say theory or guided though.

[Kore]

A 3rd turn Ambassador seems to make double ambassador worse in Ambassador + BM and Ambassador + BV/Wharf.

[theory]

It was guided. 

One of these days we'll work out the theoretical underpinnings of Ambassador, which I'm convinced is a card that no one fully understands yet. 

[mnavratil]

Not sure double ambassador is any better for non big money strategies. Adjusting the simulator to play Boarder Village/Wharf (which easily beats BM), Amb/Silver wins out 53/44 over Amb/Amb. The border village/Wharf combo was chosen arbitrary and there may be better combos but given that double ambassador delays your first 5, I would say that any combo that depends on a 5 cost components isn't going to be a good one for double ambassador.

I'd expect double ambassador to do better with a combo that doesn't depend on 5+ cost cards.

I was trying to reproduce this and would like to elaborate. Ambassador/Ambassador is better here than Ambassador/Silver/Ambassador. But Both are worse than ambassador/Silver without ever picking up the second ambassador.

[A_S00]

Semi-related question:  When (if ever) should you return less coppers to retain buying power for a turn.  If you opened amb/amb, is it worth returning 0 or 1 coppers so you can buy your silver on turn 3/4?