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Limetime

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Super old quotes
« on: January 27, 2016, 10:19:31 pm »
0

This is the place to quote really old strategy tips laugh at our dominion misconceptions. All goodnaturedly of course. :) I will give an example:
Yeah, Ironworks/Gardens is what I think is the "root Combo". By this I mean the thing that is so good, absolutely nothing else beats it. And since I made that postulation, at least in my own games, it's been true: in any game with both ironworks and Gardens on the board, I've only lost in games where my opponent also went for a variation of this strategy. Now, this isn't to say you shouldn't go for other cards WITH this combo - i.e. if workshop is on the board, you should prolly go workshop/ironworks/gardens - but I have yet to think of a board where a gardens/ironworks-centred deck doesn't win at least 50% of the time. It's incredibly resilient at any rate, and can absorb most problems other decks can throw at it, especially curse-givers, which a lot of other strategies can't boast of, and it is fast enough to beat a lot of other strats.
And

I'll have a standing challenge to anyone to beat me Ironworks/Gardens without going Ironworks/Gardens themselves (okay, mirror match is fine too, but that's a different story altogether, and I haven't gotten it often enough to be confident I have it 100% tuned for the mirror). I'm not saying I'll win every time, but I should win over 50%, especially if you control for player order advantage.
Challenge accepted
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 10:37:42 pm by Limetime »
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 10:38:14 pm »
+7

It's easy to look back on past statements like Laboratory being the 2nd best non-attack $5 card card (http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/04/11/the-five-best-5-non-attacks/) and laugh, but Dominion was a much different game in 2011.  Some people think that Sea Hag was voted the best $4 card only because everyone was so naive back in the day, but if you only play with the expansions that were available at the time, Sea Hag is actually one of the most powerful cards in the game.  It's only with the last few expansions that strategy has tipped so heavily toward engines.

(on the topic of the first post, I wouldn't be too surprised if Ironworks/Gardens does win 50%+ with the cards available at the time)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 10:40:42 pm by grsbmd »
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funkdoc

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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2016, 10:46:33 pm »
0

i think i mentioned this in a stream chat somewhere but the best one to me was the boardgamegeek championship from years ago. there's a youtube video interviewing the winner where he says "pirate ship is normally such a game-warping card" and makes it out to be this huge deal that he ignored it and won.

i think that may have been a 4-player game, to be fair

also we should just have one catch-all "silver test" statement to stop 100 posts of those

EDIT: i just remembered that in the first year or so of dark ages, one of the A-division regulars thought opening double urchin sucked because of economy. wanna say it was mic but not 100% on that.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 10:56:12 pm by funkdoc »
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2016, 11:42:10 pm »
+7

I have that honor! Well, I don't think it was specifically about economy, but something along the lines of "there's usually some better opener". It's in the WW card ranking thread somewhere.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 11:43:31 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2016, 11:58:09 pm »
+4

Pirate Ship is a pretty huge deal in 4-player Dominion, that's not a ridiculous statement at all. To be fair I haven't played 4-player Dominion in about 4 years, but if that's how far the statement goes it was pretty accurate.
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2016, 03:16:19 am »
+4

Pirate Ship is a pretty huge deal in 4-player Dominion, that's not a ridiculous statement at all. To be fair I haven't played 4-player Dominion in about 4 years, but if that's how far the statement goes it was pretty accurate.

I'll even say it's one of those cards that are very important even in three player games. But with less focus on actual treasure cards and more options to skip them in the later expansions, it's become less of a super strategy.
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2016, 03:35:23 am »
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I can see how Pirate Ship is much better in multiplayer games then in 2p. But. Is it really such a big deal? It's better only because it's almost guaranteed to hit every time you play it in the first couple of shuffles (and, depending on what else is on the board, maybe even later). But isn't it still slow compared to some decent engines?
I guess if at least two players go for PS it basically kills any money strategy, but with some virtual coins engine available it should not be superior super often.

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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2016, 03:44:14 am »
+2

In multiplayer, if two people go for Pirate Ship it puts a much tighter clock on getting your engine going. An important village pile might split 3/3/4 in 3-player which limits your engine cap. It depends a lot on what other players do.
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2016, 04:07:16 am »
+13

At one point during my work on the tray movement for the mod I was curious about how things would look like in multiplayer. To find out I invited four bots to a game who, drawing on their vast experience, all went for Pirate Ship and collectively beat me to pulp. The whole affair traumatized me to such an extent that I resolved to never play a 5p game again.
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2016, 08:03:35 am »
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I can see how Pirate Ship is much better in multiplayer games then in 2p. But. Is it really such a big deal? It's better only because it's almost guaranteed to hit every time you play it in the first couple of shuffles (and, depending on what else is on the board, maybe even later). But isn't it still slow compared to some decent engines?

It's not just almost guaranteed to hit every time you play it, it's almost guaranteed to hit multiple treasures every time you play it. If you buy a Pirate Ship every time you can and always hit your opponents for the first three shuffles, you're probably getting a Province almost every turn starting with turn 7 or something like that.
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2016, 08:26:44 am »
+2



It's not just almost guaranteed to hit every time you play it, it's almost guaranteed to hit multiple treasures every time you play it. If you buy a Pirate Ship every time you can and always hit your opponents for the first three shuffles, you're probably getting a Province almost every turn starting with turn 7 or something like that.

the pirate ship benefit doesn't scale: if you hit 1 or 7 treasures, you still get just one pirate ship token
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2016, 09:35:45 am »
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the pirate ship benefit doesn't scale: if you hit 1 or 7 treasures, you still get just one pirate ship token

Huh, we played it wrong in that one IRL game then. Although I'm not sure if we all just read the card wrong or if the Finnish translation actually says that, both are pretty plausible explanations.
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2016, 10:53:31 am »
+6

This is the place to quote really old strategy tips laugh at our dominion misconceptions. All goodnaturedly of course. :) I will give an example:
Yeah, Ironworks/Gardens is what I think is the "root Combo". By this I mean the thing that is so good, absolutely nothing else beats it. And since I made that postulation, at least in my own games, it's been true: in any game with both ironworks and Gardens on the board, I've only lost in games where my opponent also went for a variation of this strategy. Now, this isn't to say you shouldn't go for other cards WITH this combo - i.e. if workshop is on the board, you should prolly go workshop/ironworks/gardens - but I have yet to think of a board where a gardens/ironworks-centred deck doesn't win at least 50% of the time. It's incredibly resilient at any rate, and can absorb most problems other decks can throw at it, especially curse-givers, which a lot of other strategies can't boast of, and it is fast enough to beat a lot of other strats.
And

I'll have a standing challenge to anyone to beat me Ironworks/Gardens without going Ironworks/Gardens themselves (okay, mirror match is fine too, but that's a different story altogether, and I haven't gotten it often enough to be confident I have it 100% tuned for the mirror). I'm not saying I'll win every time, but I should win over 50%, especially if you control for player order advantage.
Challenge accepted

Yeah, that guy was an idiot.

In all honesty, it was not that far off at some point. Pretty sure it was just correct when it was only Base and Intrigue, and not so far off when I was thinking about it first (before the release of Prosperity). That Prosperity was out for a year when I posted that makes me somewhat doubtful, because probably there was some Goons thing, or especially King's Court. I suppose it's possible a fast enough Bridge mega-turn might have done it even with Intrigue.... King's Court is a big game though.

Anyway, of course Silk Road supplants Gardens, but other than that, it's very close to the best 2-card combo still, I believe. Certainly a few years back we had a simulator contest which I won off an IW/SR bot, and the only real contender was Wharf/FG. More sets have definitely come since then, but I have a hard time thinking any 2-card combo outperforms. Of course there are lots of things that beat it now, but most of them are good engines needing several cards.

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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2016, 11:09:39 am »
0

This is the place to quote really old strategy tips laugh at our dominion misconceptions. All goodnaturedly of course. :) I will give an example:
Yeah, Ironworks/Gardens is what I think is the "root Combo". By this I mean the thing that is so good, absolutely nothing else beats it. And since I made that postulation, at least in my own games, it's been true: in any game with both ironworks and Gardens on the board, I've only lost in games where my opponent also went for a variation of this strategy. Now, this isn't to say you shouldn't go for other cards WITH this combo - i.e. if workshop is on the board, you should prolly go workshop/ironworks/gardens - but I have yet to think of a board where a gardens/ironworks-centred deck doesn't win at least 50% of the time. It's incredibly resilient at any rate, and can absorb most problems other decks can throw at it, especially curse-givers, which a lot of other strategies can't boast of, and it is fast enough to beat a lot of other strats.
And

I'll have a standing challenge to anyone to beat me Ironworks/Gardens without going Ironworks/Gardens themselves (okay, mirror match is fine too, but that's a different story altogether, and I haven't gotten it often enough to be confident I have it 100% tuned for the mirror). I'm not saying I'll win every time, but I should win over 50%, especially if you control for player order advantage.
Challenge accepted

Yeah, that guy was an idiot.

In all honesty, it was not that far off at some point. Pretty sure it was just correct when it was only Base and Intrigue, and not so far off when I was thinking about it first (before the release of Prosperity). That Prosperity was out for a year when I posted that makes me somewhat doubtful, because probably there was some Goons thing, or especially King's Court. I suppose it's possible a fast enough Bridge mega-turn might have done it even with Intrigue.... King's Court is a big game though.

Anyway, of course Silk Road supplants Gardens, but other than that, it's very close to the best 2-card combo still, I believe. Certainly a few years back we had a simulator contest which I won off an IW/SR bot, and the only real contender was Wharf/FG. More sets have definitely come since then, but I have a hard time thinking any 2-card combo outperforms. Of course there are lots of things that beat it now, but most of them are good engines needing several cards.

NV/bridge maybe?
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2016, 11:22:06 am »
0

NV/Bridge is fine, but it's pretty slow. Especially given the fact that it really needs to lower some piles to accomplish anything, which would speed up IW/Gardens. My money is on IW/Gardens in that four-card kingdom.
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2016, 11:41:32 am »
+8

It's only with the last few expansions that strategy has tipped so heavily toward engines.

It's hard to disagree more :) The best card for engines overall, Chapel, is from base. Base also featured some A-grade village (plain Village) and an A-grade draw card (Smithy).
The worst attack to get against you every single turn, Ghost Ship, is from Seaside.

The reason engines were harder with Base only was that engines require a bit of everything. +actions, +cards, +gain/buy, time (either attack or alt VP).
In the base set a lot of cards provided only one of those categories, so the chance that a category was entirely missing from a kingdom was significant. It was still easily below 50% though. Engines were probably also harder with base + intrigue, again because of the high percentage of cards doing only one thing. But cards stopped doing only one thing way, way before Dark Ages.

The real reason engines are so much more popular now, is that everybody got a lot better at Dominion.

I'm convinced WW builds an engine now on many many boards he used to think BigMoney was best on. And he could think BigMoney was best on those boards back in the days because he almost always beat his opponent with it, who was either playing a worse form of BigMoney or terribly misplaying an engine.
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2016, 12:18:44 pm »
+6

It's only with the last few expansions that strategy has tipped so heavily toward engines.

It's hard to disagree more :) The best card for engines overall, Chapel, is from base. Base also featured some A-grade village (plain Village) and an A-grade draw card (Smithy).
The worst attack to get against you every single turn, Ghost Ship, is from Seaside.

The reason engines were harder with Base only was that engines require a bit of everything. +actions, +cards, +gain/buy, time (either attack or alt VP).
In the base set a lot of cards provided only one of those categories, so the chance that a category was entirely missing from a kingdom was significant. It was still easily below 50% though. Engines were probably also harder with base + intrigue, again because of the high percentage of cards doing only one thing. But cards stopped doing only one thing way, way before Dark Ages.

The real reason engines are so much more popular now, is that everybody got a lot better at Dominion.

I'm convinced WW builds an engine now on many many boards he used to think BigMoney was best on. And he could think BigMoney was best on those boards back in the days because he almost always beat his opponent with it, who was either playing a worse form of BigMoney or terribly misplaying an engine.

I agree that there's far more to my play improving than the cardset changing, though I think they're both factors. I disagree with some of the things though. Certainly I don't think engines are great in base in general; I imagine it can't be right much more than 50% of the time. There's only Chapel as a really good trasher; moneylender also existed. 35% of the time already, you don't have either of these. It's not impossible to engine without either, but it's tough. Witch certainly wrecks engines that don't have Chapel. And then you need a Village (there are only 3, Festival is pretty bad for engine reliability, Throne Room often isn't great since there aren't many cantrips), you need draw (Smithy is great, Library and Lab are ok but not the best), you need +buy (Woodcutter is bad, Festival is ok, Market is good of course)... most given boards will have any one of the given pieces, but usually not all of them.

Perhaps the bigger thing, surprisingly enough, is that the payload is rather poor. There are very few options that get you off of getting a decent amount of treasure, at which point how much good are you really doing over BM? So of course Chapel went engine a good majority of the time, but other than that, it wasn't happening that often.



Even getting Intrigue out (should have) made a big difference, as you pick up Steward, Masquerade, Torturer, Bridge... Your biggest problem now was Villages, because you only pick up Mining, Nobles, and the very-unreliable-especially-against-money Tribute. If we discount Nobles as being real bad as the only village for an engine (and same of course with Tribute), we have 4 villages out of 50 cards, which means we get one about 60% of the time (Throne Room sometimes doesn't work, but I suppose sometimes Nobles does).


Seaside was out before all of these discussions, and for engines it brought Ambassador, Lookout, Wharf, Fishing Village, Bazaar, Native Village... Should have been pretty engine already.

But the thing is, things kept getting better for engines, too (Alchemy; Prosperity did a LOT; Dark Ages added very good villages and several very good trashers, and attacks...), in no small part because the proportion of each component kept creeping up, making it much less likely you'd miss something you need. Still, it's not a foregone conclusion that you engine every board - just grabbed the last 20 games I played off of salvager, and I think 7 of them are pretty clear no-engines (with a couple being questionable). That's obviously not scientific and a pretty small sample, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if engine isn't right ~30% of the time.


A final note is that there are way fewer do-nothing cards now. Spy, Scout, Thief, Chancellor, etc. all being so weak hurt engines significantly, as they effectively shrink kingdoms. The engine % would be way higher if we played with 12 card kingdoms, and lower if we played with 6.

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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2016, 01:03:59 pm »
+1

WW, that last point is really, really key. the number of total duds per set dropped off drastically after seaside - even that one had pirate ship, treasure map, explorer, navigator...

with guilds for instance, the only card remotely comparable to those is taxman.  the low-tier cards in later sets tend to be limited & situationally strong (e.g. rats, masterpiece) rather than just plain bad in general. i guess you could argue pirate ship belongs in this category but that's rare enough to be different from these imo

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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2016, 01:13:20 pm »
+1

Also, now that there are Events, with the introduction of Adventures we're often effectively playing with 12-card kingdoms. Just not online yet.

And indeed, it increased the amount of times an engine is viable even further, even though there are some insane BM cards (Treasure Trove, Gear) as well.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 01:14:30 pm by Aleimon Thimble »
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2016, 02:06:05 pm »
+4

It's only with the last few expansions that strategy has tipped so heavily toward engines.

It's hard to disagree more :) The best card for engines overall, Chapel, is from base. Base also featured some A-grade village (plain Village) and an A-grade draw card (Smithy).
The worst attack to get against you every single turn, Ghost Ship, is from Seaside.

The reason engines were harder with Base only was that engines require a bit of everything. +actions, +cards, +gain/buy, time (either attack or alt VP).
In the base set a lot of cards provided only one of those categories, so the chance that a category was entirely missing from a kingdom was significant. It was still easily below 50% though. Engines were probably also harder with base + intrigue, again because of the high percentage of cards doing only one thing. But cards stopped doing only one thing way, way before Dark Ages.

The real reason engines are so much more popular now, is that everybody got a lot better at Dominion.

I'm convinced WW builds an engine now on many many boards he used to think BigMoney was best on. And he could think BigMoney was best on those boards back in the days because he almost always beat his opponent with it, who was either playing a worse form of BigMoney or terribly misplaying an engine.

FWIW, the ratio of thinners to non-thinners has been slightly increasing over time:



(The numbers will slightly vary depending on what you define as a "thinner"; I didn't include things like Mine, Farmland, Native Village, Dame Anna, etc.)

I would claim that that definitely has something to do with why engines have become more and more popular (of course, it's not the only reason).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 02:12:50 pm by Dingan »
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2016, 02:09:43 pm »
+4

Another important factor in increasing engine-ness of kingdoms over time is the number of non-terminal actions.  Even when a kingdom includes trashing, draw, +gain/buy, and payload, an engine won't be viable if all of those components are terminal and there are no villages.  The later sets introduced a lot of non-terminal actions (and treasures) that help you construct an engine.

Dominion: 16 terminal, 9 non-terminal (including Throne Room)
Seaside: 16 terminal (including Tactician), 10 non-terminal
Prosperity: 12 terminal, 13 non-terminal (including King's Court and the kingdom treasures)
Dark Ages: 17 terminal (including Cultist, Knights), 17 non-terminal (including Squire, Procession, Band of Misfits, Counterfeit)

(Correction for WanderingWinter: Intrigue also has Shanty Town as a village.  Granted, it is a poor one.)
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2016, 02:13:43 pm »
0

Intrigue also has Shanty Town as a village.  Granted, it is a poor one.)

I don't think ST is a poor village at all.  Especially as an opener, it's usually a Lab for 3 coins.  And in the greening phase, it still often helps by lubing draw.  Throw in some non-terminals and it's a great card.  It just works poorly with non-drawing terminals but even then you probably want some ST's in order to increase payload.
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2016, 02:21:47 pm »
+16

I'm a noob, I know. This is kind of a noobish question, but I've looked around this site for an article and Remodel and I haven't found one.

I'm having trouble finding any practical use for Remodel. It seems I'm better off in any circumstance without buying it at all. I'm pretty sure I'm wrong, but I just can't come up with any situations where buying Remodel can be useful.

I've heard about remodeling Golds into Provinces, and also remodeling Estates into better 4-cost actions (or maybe even Silvers?). I've attempted these and have never once successfully used Remodel. Does anyone have some experience with using Remodel successfully?

One other thing, since Remodel is in the base set, examples that are limited to the base set are better for me, especially since I've only ever played with the base set. Examples outside the base set are certainly welcome, though.
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2016, 02:45:00 pm »
+4

I'm having trouble finding any practical use for Remodel. It seems I'm better off in any circumstance without buying it at all. I'm pretty sure I'm wrong, but I just can't come up with any situations where buying Remodel can be useful.

So did you ever figure out how to use it?
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Re: Super old quotes
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2016, 03:15:09 pm »
+5

Dominion is hard!
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