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[silverspawn]

Well I guess it works once. Awaclus seems to want to make it a general rule, which does not work. If I misunderstood his intentions, then it is fine I guess. But people could still have found out that this is the reason by following other threads.

I doubt he thought it through this far. I certainly didn't.

Of course he did.

Well, he's here, so no need to speculate. Did you?

[Witherweaver]

A few things

Um, because you are pulling a reinoe on your scum partners? I would have done the same thing (banned you from my games).

I don't think this is the same at all. I think he'd either be replaced or the game would be restarted. Since this is a game-deciding rule change that has been deployed right after the game started, it'd be annoying but fair.

The Lekkit case is... very inaccurate I think. I completely disagree with everything. I was going to say doing such a case is scummy, but other people agree, so I don't know what to think. They can't all be scum... or can they?

In yuma's reread of faust I think there was a point if misunderstanding. faust commented on every post - often it was just saying 'this is XX' without judging it, but yuma treated it as if every 'this is XX' comment also implied 'this is bad'.

I agree with the consent that faust is town based on all this. Teproc is also town for his slip and a bit because of Lekkit's case.

RR is being super anti town. vote: RR and stop joking about being scum. try to play for your win con please. Unless you are scum, then you should play against your win con.

I think very inaccurate cases are from town more often than scum.  Also, bad cases are better than no cases. 

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Gkrieg

[Lekkit]

ADK I don't want to lynch.  I also still haven't looked up what Fruit Vendor does.  Even in a case where scum knows its a safe claim (I haven't checked myself to see if that's possible), I'm not sure scum!ADK is the kind of player that does this.  Though we've had a string of early town claims lately.

In fact. Fruit Vendor is guaranteed to be counterclaimable.

I'm not sure about Lekkit's last point against Teproc (regarding counterclaiming).. at most I see that it implies Teproc does not have a PR that can counterclaim ADK; I don't see where the rest comes from.  He also claims Teproc is kind of posting without contributing.  I'm not really sure if this is true or not.  Nothing Teproc has done so far has made me want to reaction-vote him.

Here's the thing. If Teproc is a PR, there are basically two possibilities.

1. He's a PR from another row. He'll by his own argument counterclaim.

2. He's a PR from the same rows as Fruit Vendor. That would be Even Night Tracker, Jailkeeper, Watcher or Cop. ANY other PR would be able to counterclaim Fruit Vendor. Since nobody did, we can assume that ADK is in fact Fruit Vendor. Yet, he's still hesitant.

If Teproc is VT, then saying he thought about the claiming thing and then getting things messed up seems unlikely to me. Why would he say that? He knew some of the results of someone claiming, namely that scum would know which setup was rolled. But the IC part that faust laid out for him he missed. Basically he knew what would happen if a PR became known for scum but not for town. Not even why town would want to claim. And saying he "thought about that as well" while seemingly only having thought about it from a scum perspective seems... Not like something a VT would really do.

[Awaclus]

scum!Awaclus is perfectly able to use ongoing rule debates to his benefit I believe. I would not give out town cred for this.

That's irrelevant. University-student-who-actually-needs-to-get-studying-done-because-his-student-financial-aid-depends-on-him-studying-enough-and-he-spent-last-semester-not-studying-enough-so-at-this-point-he-can't-really-afford-to-fail-a-single-course-this-semester-unless-he-wants-to-get-into-pretty-serious-financial-problems!Awaclus is simply unable to play any game as scum as long as QT quoting is not forbidden in that game.

[Witherweaver]

ADK I don't want to lynch.  I also still haven't looked up what Fruit Vendor does.  Even in a case where scum knows its a safe claim (I haven't checked myself to see if that's possible), I'm not sure scum!ADK is the kind of player that does this.  Though we've had a string of early town claims lately.

In fact. Fruit Vendor is guaranteed to be counterclaimable.

I'm not sure about Lekkit's last point against Teproc (regarding counterclaiming).. at most I see that it implies Teproc does not have a PR that can counterclaim ADK; I don't see where the rest comes from.  He also claims Teproc is kind of posting without contributing.  I'm not really sure if this is true or not.  Nothing Teproc has done so far has made me want to reaction-vote him.

Here's the thing. If Teproc is a PR, there are basically two possibilities.

1. He's a PR from another row. He'll by his own argument counterclaim.

2. He's a PR from the same rows as Fruit Vendor. That would be Even Night Tracker, Jailkeeper, Watcher or Cop. ANY other PR would be able to counterclaim Fruit Vendor. Since nobody did, we can assume that ADK is in fact Fruit Vendor. Yet, he's still hesitant.

If Teproc is VT, then saying he thought about the claiming thing and then getting things messed up seems unlikely to me. Why would he say that? He knew some of the results of someone claiming, namely that scum would know which setup was rolled. But the IC part that faust laid out for him he missed. Basically he knew what would happen if a PR became known for scum but not for town. Not even why town would want to claim. And saying he "thought about that as well" while seemingly only having thought about it from a scum perspective seems... Not like something a VT would really do.

Oh, I see.  That is a better point than I thought. 

[Awaclus]

Of course he did. I'd seriously support everyone (both alignments) agreeing not to use their night actions and us lynching Awaclus and doing day 1 again on day 2. Or simply finding a way to modkill him for it. But it's not technically against the rules so... we'll have to live with it this game.

That would be ridiculous. This is perfectly allowed by the rules and beneficial for town.

[Teproc]

Of course he did. I'd seriously support everyone (both alignments) agreeing not to use their night actions and us lynching Awaclus and doing day 1 again on day 2. Or simply finding a way to modkill him for it. But it's not technically against the rules so... we'll have to live with it this game.

That would be ridiculous. This is perfectly allowed by the rules and beneficial for town.

WHat reinoe did was beneficial for town. What you're doing is not quite as bad, but it's as close as you can get without getting banned for it. Congrats, you've managed to break the social contract of this game without actually breaking the rules, be proud.

[Awaclus]

WHat reinoe did was beneficial for town. What you're doing is not quite as bad, but it's as close as you can get without getting banned for it. Congrats, you've managed to break the social contract of this game without actually breaking the rules, be proud.

The difference is that reinoe was scum, so it was not beneficial for his own alignment.

[Teproc]

ADK I don't want to lynch.  I also still haven't looked up what Fruit Vendor does.  Even in a case where scum knows its a safe claim (I haven't checked myself to see if that's possible), I'm not sure scum!ADK is the kind of player that does this.  Though we've had a string of early town claims lately.

In fact. Fruit Vendor is guaranteed to be counterclaimable.

I'm not sure about Lekkit's last point against Teproc (regarding counterclaiming).. at most I see that it implies Teproc does not have a PR that can counterclaim ADK; I don't see where the rest comes from.  He also claims Teproc is kind of posting without contributing.  I'm not really sure if this is true or not.  Nothing Teproc has done so far has made me want to reaction-vote him.

Here's the thing. If Teproc is a PR, there are basically two possibilities.

1. He's a PR from another row. He'll by his own argument counterclaim.

2. He's a PR from the same rows as Fruit Vendor. That would be Even Night Tracker, Jailkeeper, Watcher or Cop. ANY other PR would be able to counterclaim Fruit Vendor. Since nobody did, we can assume that ADK is in fact Fruit Vendor. Yet, he's still hesitant.

If Teproc is VT, then saying he thought about the claiming thing and then getting things messed up seems unlikely to me. Why would he say that? He knew some of the results of someone claiming, namely that scum would know which setup was rolled. But the IC part that faust laid out for him he missed. Basically he knew what would happen if a PR became known for scum but not for town. Not even why town would want to claim. And saying he "thought about that as well" while seemingly only having thought about it from a scum perspective seems... Not like something a VT would really do.

Oh, I see.  That is a better point than I thought. 

It is ?

Do I really have to explain what's wrong here ?

I guess I'll do : "I've thought about it", doesn't mean "I've thought about every possible angle and have made no mistake". It just means that I've thought about it.

[Witherweaver]

ADK I don't want to lynch.  I also still haven't looked up what Fruit Vendor does.  Even in a case where scum knows its a safe claim (I haven't checked myself to see if that's possible), I'm not sure scum!ADK is the kind of player that does this.  Though we've had a string of early town claims lately.

In fact. Fruit Vendor is guaranteed to be counterclaimable.

I'm not sure about Lekkit's last point against Teproc (regarding counterclaiming).. at most I see that it implies Teproc does not have a PR that can counterclaim ADK; I don't see where the rest comes from.  He also claims Teproc is kind of posting without contributing.  I'm not really sure if this is true or not.  Nothing Teproc has done so far has made me want to reaction-vote him.

Here's the thing. If Teproc is a PR, there are basically two possibilities.

1. He's a PR from another row. He'll by his own argument counterclaim.

2. He's a PR from the same rows as Fruit Vendor. That would be Even Night Tracker, Jailkeeper, Watcher or Cop. ANY other PR would be able to counterclaim Fruit Vendor. Since nobody did, we can assume that ADK is in fact Fruit Vendor. Yet, he's still hesitant.

If Teproc is VT, then saying he thought about the claiming thing and then getting things messed up seems unlikely to me. Why would he say that? He knew some of the results of someone claiming, namely that scum would know which setup was rolled. But the IC part that faust laid out for him he missed. Basically he knew what would happen if a PR became known for scum but not for town. Not even why town would want to claim. And saying he "thought about that as well" while seemingly only having thought about it from a scum perspective seems... Not like something a VT would really do.

Oh, I see.  That is a better point than I thought. 

It is ?

Do I really have to explain what's wrong here ?

I guess I'll do : "I've thought about it", doesn't mean "I've thought about every possible angle and have made no mistake". It just means that I've thought about it.

Well I didn't think it was a valid point at all before, and now it has some nonzero amount of validity, so yes, it is a better point than I thought.

[Lekkit]

You had a "main downside" to it. But no upside.

After fausts initial post about creating a semi IC you said you also "thought about it". You mention the downside is that it gives scum information. But faust's proposal is clearly beneficial for town. And when it so happens that ADK claims fruit vendor you immediately come to the conclusion that it's just as likely to be a fake-claim. It's not about every possible angle. If you're a town PR you have one angle to consider. If you're VT you only thought about how scum would benefit from the claim, while completely disregarding the benefits for town.

[Teproc]

Yes, I was looking at how scum benefitted from it. This is wrong because ?

[faust]

scum!Awaclus is perfectly able to use ongoing rule debates to his benefit I believe. I would not give out town cred for this.

That's irrelevant. University-student-who-actually-needs-to-get-studying-done-because-his-student-financial-aid-depends-on-him-studying-enough-and-he-spent-last-semester-not-studying-enough-so-at-this-point-he-can't-really-afford-to-fail-a-single-course-this-semester-unless-he-wants-to-get-into-pretty-serious-financial-problems!Awaclus is simply unable to play any game as scum as long as QT quoting is not forbidden in that game.

No, THIS is irrelevant since you are still playing this game.

[Teproc]

Rather : this is scummy because ?

The benefits to such a claim were pretty obvious and laid out by faust. I then had a moment of doubt about those benefits, because I'm dumb. It's not that complicated.

[faust]

Lekkit, you still haven't answered the question why scum!Teproc would do what he did.

[Awaclus]

That's irrelevant. University-student-who-actually-needs-to-get-studying-done-because-his-student-financial-aid-depends-on-him-studying-enough-and-he-spent-last-semester-not-studying-enough-so-at-this-point-he-can't-really-afford-to-fail-a-single-course-this-semester-unless-he-wants-to-get-into-pretty-serious-financial-problems!Awaclus is simply unable to play any game as scum as long as QT quoting is not forbidden in that game.

No, THIS is irrelevant since you are still playing this game.
[/quote]

No, it's relevant precisely because I'm still playing this game. If I had been scum, I wouldn't be.

[Awaclus]

Quotefail.

That's irrelevant. University-student-who-actually-needs-to-get-studying-done-because-his-student-financial-aid-depends-on-him-studying-enough-and-he-spent-last-semester-not-studying-enough-so-at-this-point-he-can't-really-afford-to-fail-a-single-course-this-semester-unless-he-wants-to-get-into-pretty-serious-financial-problems!Awaclus is simply unable to play any game as scum as long as QT quoting is not forbidden in that game.

No, THIS is irrelevant since you are still playing this game.

No, it's relevant precisely because I'm still playing this game. If I had been scum, I wouldn't be.

[faust]

Quotefail.

That's irrelevant. University-student-who-actually-needs-to-get-studying-done-because-his-student-financial-aid-depends-on-him-studying-enough-and-he-spent-last-semester-not-studying-enough-so-at-this-point-he-can't-really-afford-to-fail-a-single-course-this-semester-unless-he-wants-to-get-into-pretty-serious-financial-problems!Awaclus is simply unable to play any game as scum as long as QT quoting is not forbidden in that game.

No, THIS is irrelevant since you are still playing this game.

No, it's relevant precisely because I'm still playing this game. If I had been scum, I wouldn't be.

And all we have for that is your word. So nothing.

[Awaclus]

Quotefail.

That's irrelevant. University-student-who-actually-needs-to-get-studying-done-because-his-student-financial-aid-depends-on-him-studying-enough-and-he-spent-last-semester-not-studying-enough-so-at-this-point-he-can't-really-afford-to-fail-a-single-course-this-semester-unless-he-wants-to-get-into-pretty-serious-financial-problems!Awaclus is simply unable to play any game as scum as long as QT quoting is not forbidden in that game.

No, THIS is irrelevant since you are still playing this game.

No, it's relevant precisely because I'm still playing this game. If I had been scum, I wouldn't be.

And all we have for that is your word. So nothing.

I can copy paste my completed studies page here if you want since that's allowed in this game. Unfortunately, posting a screen shot is not.


Completed studies
Completed studies Total 8.0 Cp
Show language of completed studies  Show credit units Show credit points Show both
If credit points are in parentheses they is not counted in Total
Extend all Codedescending   Study unitdescending   Cp   Grading   Dateascending   Acceptor   
     3621217    Programming I    6    3/5     22.12.2015    Marja Kuittinen    
     3621115    Information Networks for CS students    1    Pass     22.10.2015    Pirkko Voutilainen    
     1131000    Starting academic studies    1    Pass     25.09.2015    Pirkko Voutilainen, Niina Rδsδnen    

Completed studies Total 8.0 Cp   



50 Cp (I'm guessing that stands for course points, they are called opintopisteet in Finnish) are required every year or I lose around 500€ per 5 Cp missing (which you can easily confirm on Google if you want). Although it's not quite as bad as it looks since there are a couple of courses I took last year that I just need to take the final tests for in order to complete them, but it's still bad enough that I can't just stop studying for however many weeks this game is going to take.

[Witherweaver]

Why do you like wasting our time?

[faust]

Why do you like wasting our time?

He realized he wasted too much of his time and now has to restore balance to the force.

[Lekkit]

Lekkit, you still haven't answered the question why scum!Teproc would do what he did.

To go with what is best for town?

Rather : this is scummy because ?

The benefits to such a claim were pretty obvious and laid out by faust. I then had a moment of doubt about those benefits, because I'm dumb. It's not that complicated.

No. You didn't doubt the benefits. You forgot why town wanted someone to claim. To me, that's on par with lynching someone because you want to analyze the wagon.

[faust]

Lekkit, you still haven't answered the question why scum!Teproc would do what he did.

To go with what is best for town?

I don't know what you are trying to say.

[Lekkit]

When playing as scum you want to seem towny. I don't really see any arguments why an IC is bad for town. Except scum knowing which one of two or three set ups they're playing in.

After the ADK claim Teproc still wanted to appear towny by not outing that he knew ADK was telling the truth. And that's where I believe he outmaneuvered himself. To not seem like he's scum who knew it was true, he doubted the claim a little, forgetting that the claim was guaranteed to be true for town as well, unless there was no counter-claim.