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Author Topic: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Game Over!)  (Read 152199 times)

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Hydrad

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #250 on: February 03, 2016, 11:30:05 pm »

I'm here!

Lets all be friends!

Did I do it?
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For anyone else, such a statement would be a scum tell.  For Hydrad, it's simply a tell that you're reading something from Hydrad.

Hydrad

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #251 on: February 03, 2016, 11:32:06 pm »

but ya even SS and WW are posting less then they usually are I think.

Although I feel like ss just isn't having enough time lately or something as I've thought this for other games recently as well.
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Teproc

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #252 on: February 03, 2016, 11:32:22 pm »

That's the spirit.

Do you think any of this mess is indicative of anyone's alignment ?
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Hydrad

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #253 on: February 03, 2016, 11:40:21 pm »

That's the spirit.

Do you think any of this mess is indicative of anyone's alignment ?

No. I don't feel like anyone is trying to purposly egg someone on either for a scum strat or anything either.
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For anyone else, such a statement would be a scum tell.  For Hydrad, it's simply a tell that you're reading something from Hydrad.

gkrieg13

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #254 on: February 03, 2016, 11:53:35 pm »

Sorry I've had a really busy day.  I will get to this more tomorrow.
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yuma

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #255 on: February 04, 2016, 12:00:53 am »

yuma, if you're trying to play nice, you're not trying hard enough. Neither is faust. Neither am I probably, but still.

I agree this faust reread of yours is... I don't know what to call it really, but it's not good. Does lead credence to the "egging on" theory, but his ultimate point (that town!you is more productive) isn't entirely off-base, so I'mleaning town.

I am probably not. And it isn't just this game and I don't necessarily want to get super into it, but I feel that any conversation with you/faust/others ultimately leads to a tone--not the words mind you--of 'Yuma is being an idiot' when what you think I am saying is pretty stupid and I can't seem to get you to understand what I am actually saying. And after trying a few times I just give up.

That is kinda where I am at. Certainly part of that is on me I will readily admit and I am trying. I don't know if I am not trying enough. I mean... Part of my trying is stopping the conversation before it completely derails the whole thread, cause that is what I used to do.

It feels like what you guys want me to do is state that you guys are right when in fact I disagree. And I guess I could do that but I would be lying through my teeth and I am not really inclined to do that.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #256 on: February 04, 2016, 12:02:01 am »

I'm here!

Lets all be friends!

Did I do it?

Sure, but who's scum?
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Hydrad

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #257 on: February 04, 2016, 12:03:43 am »

I'm here!

Lets all be friends!

Did I do it?

Sure, but who's scum?

I have no idea!

but I'm very slowly building a towny list. so progress!
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Teproc

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #258 on: February 04, 2016, 12:09:37 am »

@yuma : When I'm arguing with you, my goal is not for you to say I'm right. If you feel like the conversation is going nowhere, just move on. I should probably do this more as well, let things lie. These things are subjective (well even more here where there's the issue of unknown alignments/sincerity, but this also goes for the other arguments we've been in recently), it's fine if we just disagree.

It should be obvious but : I don't think you're an idiot, and I hope you don't think I'm not giving weight to what you say. It's just that we disagree a lot, and I'm fine with that, it would be pretty boring if everyone always agreed on anything.

It had gone a bit too far lately though, and I think we're all tired of it. You, me, faust, everyone else in the game looking at this and apparently not really wanting to get involved (or just being busy I guess). It's obviously making this game less fun for both of us at the very least.

So... I think we should generally try to be less aggressive with each other, and try not to be snappy and use language we know will get others riled up.

Now that this is out of the way... let's lynch Hydrad. Always fun.
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Teproc

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #259 on: February 04, 2016, 12:10:47 am »

I do think Hydrad not getting any reads of the whole faust/yuma/me thing is scummy, by the way.
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Hydrad

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #260 on: February 04, 2016, 12:12:52 am »

I do think Hydrad not getting any reads of the whole faust/yuma/me thing is scummy, by the way.

then did you get reads from it?

(other then me....)
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Teproc

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #261 on: February 04, 2016, 12:16:47 am »

I think faust gets townier. I don't think he goes to all this trouble as scum. He might hope it gets the old "town v town, let's move on" treatment, but I don't know, I think his yuma reread was too aggressive to come from scum, as I don't buy the "riling up" argument.
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Haddock

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Night 0)
« Reply #262 on: February 04, 2016, 04:32:12 am »

Vote Count 1.3

To eat is human; to digest, divine.

yuma (5): Awaclus, gkrieg13, EgorK, faust, silverspawn. (L-2)
Awaclus (2): chairs, Hydrad.
faust (2): Roadrunner7671, yuma.
EgorK (1): Witherweaver.
Hydrad (2): Teproc, A Drowned Kernel.

Not Voting (1): Lekkit.


With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 will end on Tuesday, February 9, at 1 pm forum time.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

Lekkit

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #263 on: February 04, 2016, 04:49:48 am »

Hedging time: I can see yuma being both scum or town here. I think the frustration is real.

faust seems town to me. I don't think scum would try this hard to make a case out of something this loose this early.

Teproc just sitting back, enjoying the fireworks seemed really shady to me so I did a reread.


I've been thinking about this too. My main problem is that, in most if no all cases, it ust gives scum the whole setup, which they don't know yet (I think in most situations they're looking at two possible setups).

There are two things to note here. First, he's been thinking about this. Let's leave it at that for now. Second, he's clear on the fact that it gives scum the whole setup.

When you say it like that it sounds like a bigger benefit for scum, but in reality I think going from very uncertain to slightly uncertain is less good than going from slightly uncertain to absolutely certain.

This could be a language thing, he says that when it's put like that, it sounds like it's better for scum when it's actually better for scum. This to me looks very much like he was meaning to say something, then realized what it was supposed to say if he was town and changed it. But again. Language and also the fact that this is also something that's kind of opinion based makes me not want to put too much emphasis on this part. But also note that it sounds like he's still not sure on whether it's good or bad to claim.

So, assuming no one counterclaims...

There are about a billion setups where this is a safe fakeclaim for scum. So... not much towncred for ADK there as long as there isn't another PR or scum flip.

Here's a real nugget. Suddenly there's no credit to claiming? What happened to you thinking about this too? faust laid it out very well, but suddenly all it did was give scum the whole setup. Not creating an IC. This to me reads like you've been thinking about only needing to know of one role to figure out the whole setup.

If ADK is town, it means
- Fruit Vendor + Watcher + Cop + 7 VTs vs JOAT + Roleblocker + Goon
- Fruit Vendor + JK + Even-night Tracker + 7VTs vs Rolecop + 2-shot Strongman + Goon

Laying out the obvious in case anyone missed it. HOWEVER what he didn't remember was that if you're town and another PR you should counterclaim and we'll guaranteed lynch scum. This is obviously a total brain fart or a way to try to sound like you misunderstood something. Either way. It's REALLY weird for someone who "thought about it".

If he's a PR in the same row as ADK he should know ADK is telling the truth, and more importantly know why. If he's a PR from another row he should know ADK is fake-claiming.

If he's a VT him saying he thought about it and then getting his facts so messed up is simply... I dunno... I just don't see what he'd have thought about. Why even say it if it's not true. I think VT is not likely due to that.

My conclusion is that the only way Teproc makes sense is if he's scum. So I'll leave my vote on him. Vote: Teproc
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Awaclus

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #264 on: February 04, 2016, 04:58:02 am »

I like the Teproc case. Not sure if I like it more than yuma.
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faust

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #265 on: February 04, 2016, 05:41:59 am »

So. Let me try one last time. This is me trying, okay? If it doesn't work out, I will just leave the game since I am not having fun. I hope it doesn't get to that, but we're pretty close.

So, first, yuma (and everyone else I guess), I would like for you to consider things the way the look from my point of view. The game is going pretty normally, then I vote for yuma. Directly after this vote, the yuma thing starts (I think that is what I will call it; feel free to call it the faust thing or whatever, I have no desire to get into a fight about how my wording of things pushes people in a certain direction or something).

Now I think people on this forum might have realized by now that I do not feel comfortable in emotional fights. I prefer to have productive discussions without getting personal. People might have seen that I am usually quicker to view the civility pledge as violated than others are. This is why, and for all I know, this is a known fact.

So what yuma's reaction achieves is waking a desire in me to stop voting for him because then we hopefully will not have this whole fight that I really don't want to have. Maybe you can see how to me, this felt like yuma trying to manipulate me into leaving him alone. yuma then makes this post:

I don't think you are anything and you certainly don't need to apologize. Someone can feel frustrated with another player for reasons that aren't rude/mean/whatever.

so I am relieved because apparently it is not personal. I continue to play the game normally, but yuma still seems annoyed. Then I have this feeling that yuma's posts are almost all not doing scumhunting stuff. I know that voting for yuma will re-trigger all this emotional stuff, but I also do not want to be in a game where I cannot vote for a player that I believe is scummy because that player might hold a grudge against me.

I try to back up my feeling about yuma's contributions, so I do a reread. Doig a post-by-post, I realize he indeed has not expressed any read other than the one on me/Teproc. Granted, it is early in the game, but given that it is yuma and given his activity level so far, I found this worth noticing and thus I posted a summary of all his posts. It is certainly not meant as a guide to show how every single one of yuma's posts is scummy, because that would be ridiculous. But I hoped it would back up my feeling that yuma seemed disinterested in doing actual scumhunting.

I call it OMGUS because obviously yuma has his reaction, and subsequent vote for me, after I vote for him, and at least in part because I am voting for him.

But now this catches me entirely off guard:

Post 11 - implying that I am arrogant You are

I have no idea how I should react to this. I thought you had nothing personally against me (see the earlier quoted post), now this. I of course cannot be the judge of whether or not I am arrogant, or whether or not my posts convey that I am. I know I am trying not to be, and if I am failing, I am deeply and truly sorry. I would love to know what I did to produce this image, but I see that this is not the time and place for this discussion. And I have to consider the option that this is fake because after all we are playing a game of mafia.

But know that if it is fake, while I see that one might debate this is within the rules and within the civility pledge, it is not the way I want to play this game. I understand that yuma, should he have faked this, can of course not back out now, so I am simply stating this for future games. But this is also why yuma's accusation of me pushing his buttons seems so off base for me: because that is absolutely not the way I want this game played, and I would never play that way, and I thought others knew this about me.

And if it is not fake, well obviously my continued presence in this game will make it unpleasant for both yuma and me, so unless we can settle this somehow, I would prefer to be replaced by somebody else.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #266 on: February 04, 2016, 06:12:02 am »

I'm here!

Lets all be friends!

Did I do it?

Sure, but who's scum?
Hydrad/RR of course!
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Witherweaver

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #267 on: February 04, 2016, 08:09:10 am »

I'm going preliminary town on Lekkit.

Yuma seems like Yuma and not town! or scum! Yuma.  I also have no experience catching scum!Yuma.  Votes on him seem uninspired though.

Faust could go either way.  Also, Faust you shouldn't leave this game.. emotions are going to come up as we're all basically arguing with each other, or at least on the verge of it.  Some people's style (intentional or not) is to be more passionate, so these things happen.

I voted Egor because I thought this vote was bad:

Hm, ok

Vote: yuma

You said yourself in recent game that you was mislynched once. Now you say that you are easy to be manipulated into self destruction?

I still do.  The question there was also serves as explanation for the vote, but why is Yuma scummy because of it?  I had also originally thought it was odd that Egor suddenly changed votes (he doesn't often 'vote around' a lot), but looking back I see it was because he thought Silver was counterclaiming ADK.  So, maybe not a lot there.

RR is a coin toss, as usual.  Chairs I don't have anything from. 

Hydrad seems like normal Hydrad, but that's become a non-alignment indicator. 

ADK I don't want to lynch.  I also still haven't looked up what Fruit Vendor does.  Even in a case where scum knows its a safe claim (I haven't checked myself to see if that's possible), I'm not sure scum!ADK is the kind of player that does this.  Though we've had a string of early town claims lately.

Gkrieg I don't remember much from.

I'm not sure about Lekkit's last point against Teproc (regarding counterclaiming).. at most I see that it implies Teproc does not have a PR that can counterclaim ADK; I don't see where the rest comes from.  He also claims Teproc is kind of posting without contributing.  I'm not really sure if this is true or not.  Nothing Teproc has done so far has made me want to reaction-vote him.
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Witherweaver

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #268 on: February 04, 2016, 08:09:44 am »

I'm pretty sure what that all boils down to is:

Town: ADK, Lekkit

Null: Everyone
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Witherweaver

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #269 on: February 04, 2016, 08:11:34 am »

I think faust gets townier. I don't think he goes to all this trouble as scum. He might hope it gets the old "town v town, let's move on" treatment, but I don't know, I think his yuma reread was too aggressive to come from scum, as I don't buy the "riling up" argument.

I don't think this is true at all, regarding the 'goes through all this trouble' thing.
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Witherweaver

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #270 on: February 04, 2016, 08:14:04 am »

What?  ???

That's what I thought too, but does that really make yuma scummy?

Yes. Whenever I think "What? ???", it makes that person scummy.

Ah, so you're explaining your vote.  That solves it, Awaclus has to be scum.
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Awaclus

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #271 on: February 04, 2016, 08:15:32 am »

What?  ???

That's what I thought too, but does that really make yuma scummy?

Yes. Whenever I think "What? ???", it makes that person scummy.

Ah, so you're explaining your vote.  That solves it, Awaclus has to be scum.

Really, I'm being dead serious here. If I was scum, I would have /outted immediately upon seeing the rule clarification.
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Witherweaver

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #272 on: February 04, 2016, 08:15:49 am »

Well Fruit Vendor only occurs if they have JOAT/Roleblocker or Rolecop/2-Shot Strongman...

So ... all the other ones. Right ?

I don't think it's likely to be a fakeclaim for reasons outlined above, but it's a "safe fakeclaim" in most setups.

No. Take, for instance, a setup where scum has JOAT/Goon. One of those setups has a Tracker, and one has a Commuter, both roles that cannot appear together with Fruit Vendor. So if scum were to claim Fruit Vendor, they would immediately get countered. You can go through all scenarios and see that there will always be the chance of a counterclaim.

Good thing Faust is here to do work so I don't have to. 
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Witherweaver

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #273 on: February 04, 2016, 08:17:54 am »

What?  ???

That's what I thought too, but does that really make yuma scummy?

Yes. Whenever I think "What? ???", it makes that person scummy.

Ah, so you're explaining your vote.  That solves it, Awaclus has to be scum.

Really, I'm being dead serious here. If I was scum, I would have /outted immediately upon seeing the rule clarification.

As problematic as that is, I actually don't feel like lynching you this game. 
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Witherweaver

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Re: M75: Cupcake Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #274 on: February 04, 2016, 08:18:54 am »

Looking back some, pretty sure Lekkit is wrong about Teproc.
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