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[Dingan]

IGG+Coppersmith is like amazing, I can't believe nobody has mentioned that

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12757.msg533762#msg533762

[AdamH]

IGG+Coppersmith is like amazing, I can't believe nobody has mentioned that

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12757.msg533762#msg533762

Yes, yes, I meant in this thread. But yes.

[enfynet]

In that one sample game, I would probably take a few Warehouse before any Scout. The sifting is better and will improve your current hand. If Coin Tokens taught me anything about Dominion, it's to take advantage of your turn now, and not hope for better turns later. Warehouse does this, Scout does not.

[AdamH]

Let me try and be more helpful than Awaclus while still getting less upvotes.

Jeez, I didn't think I'd fail on both accounts. Seriously, why aren't these posts getting more upvotes?

[zeruf]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

[Awaclus]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

I read that as "camrip" as first.

Man, if only we had a camrip of the first Kizumonogatari movie, I wouldn't be having all these discussions about Scout either.

[enfynet]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

If Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.

[AdrianHealey]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

If Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.

It would still be weak. :p

What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?

[Limetime]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

If Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.

It would still be weak. :p

What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?

At four coins can trip scout is pretty powerful

[XerxesPraelor]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

If Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.

It would still be weak. :p

What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?

At four coins can trip scout is pretty powerful

It would probably be at a similar power to Farming Village, as the villageness is probably corresponding to the increase in scout's ability's strength.

[Asper]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

If Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.

It would still be weak. :p

What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?

You mean like Wandering Minstrel?

[A Drowned Kernel]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

If Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.

It would still be weak. :p

What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?

You mean like Wandering Minstrel?

Scout's effect on a village would still be weaker than Wandering Minstrel. That's how bad Scout is.

[eHalcyon]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

If Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.

It would still be weak. :p

What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?

You mean like Wandering Minstrel?

Scout's effect on a village would still be weaker than Wandering Minstrel. That's how bad Scout is.

I actually think it would be pretty good.  The deck inspection and handsize increase can be very useful, enough that I think it would be competitive with Wandering Minstrel.  The comparison with Cartographer even makes me wonder if it should be $5.

[Dingan]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

If Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.

It would still be weak. :p

What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?

You mean like Wandering Minstrel?

Scout's effect on a village would still be weaker than Wandering Minstrel. That's how bad Scout is.

I actually think it would be pretty good.  The deck inspection and handsize increase can be very useful, enough that I think it would be competitive with Wandering Minstrel.  The comparison with Cartographer even makes me wonder if it should be $5.

I agree.  I think it would be somewhere between an average $4 and an average $5.  I would probably buy this over Farming Village almost all the time.  But I would think Wandering Minstrel and Fishing Village are still more powerful, mostly because of how generally when you're going for an engine, your deck is usually rid of green.  Hence the deck inspection would be its main benefit.  I would probably still put it at $4 though (which is hilarious considering Scout is already $4 lolz).

[Awaclus]

Just being a cantrip would go a long way because then it would be trivially better than nothing in the majority of cases.

[theright555J]

I usually play against my mom, who buys a Province whenever she hits $8. This forces me to green earlier, thus possibly making Scout better in my eyes.

If there's a source of +Buy on the board, you should be letting her get the first 5-6 Provinces while continuing to build your engine, then win by snagging all the remaining green in a couple of turns, after she has inevitably stalled.

Okay, I let her get 6 Provinces.
Now I need 2 Provinces, 8 Duchies and 4 Estates (seeing as she didn't trash her estates). I can totally produce $64 coins and 14 buys in 'a couple of turns.'

The real issue is that if you are "letting" her get that far ahead and NOT building toward a megaturn engine that is capable of producing vast amounts of VP like that in 1-2 turns, then you are playing suboptimally.  Scout does not really help in such situations.  And if you happen to be acquiring Scout earlier in the game as opposed to something like Silver (i.e. "Silver test") could be a reason why you get into that predicament in the first place.

[Limetime]

Roadrunner's Response to Criticism
Any good card can take criticism, just look at Goon Garden and his brush with King's Court, which is thought to be one of the best kingdom cards in Dominion. So, whenever I find criticism, I will requote it here and counter it with facts and logic.


"I think generally the criticism of Scout sums up in the words 'Opportunity cost.' It only hurts you because it is taking the place of something that would help you more." -Jamfamsam
Thank you, Jamfamsam, for providing a common argument as to why Scout is bad. However, what is there that might help you more? Cards like Sea Hag, JOAT and Remake are generally better than Scout, I will not argue that they are better than Scout. But here's the thing that causes lots of people to disagree with me: I think Scout passes the Silver Test. I don't think Scout's opportunity cost is super high. So the 'Oppurtunity Cost' argument doesn't faze me because it doesn't make sense; Scout doesn't have high Opportunity Cost.

The main thing against scout is that it does less than nothing for your deck. About the only things that make scout worth buying are proccesion on a board without other non-terminals you want to trash and without villages, or scout apothecary with no better option.
There is an opportunity cost when comparing with non like cards. Silver is worth 2$ and can not be drawn dead. Scout is a card that looks at the top 4 cards of your deck and puts them back with the seldom case of drawing victory cards

"I would like Roadrunner to first defend the position that Scout passes the Silver test." -Jamfamsam
Thank you again, Jamfamsam, for offering difficult and exciting questions to help keep this thread updated. First, let's talk about how Scout costs $4 and Silver costs $3. If Silver was better than Scout either Scout would be better, Silver would be worse, Silver would cost more or Scout would cost less. There's also the fact that the 'Silver Test' is not only outdated but also made up, Scout and Silver are very different cards. You can't pit cards that do such different things again each other. If there was a Cartographer test, I doubt Scout would pass that. But a Silver test? Really? Silver is sometimes better than Scout, but Silver is also sometimes better than King's Court. If Gold is better than King's Court 90-93% of the time, and Silver is 2/3 as good as Gold, then Silver is better than King's Court 60-61% of the time. But in all seriousness Jamfamsam, I would encourage you to look at the Combos section or Counters section. These will show you cards that when you have a lot of them or when your opponent has a lot of them (for the sake of Counters), Scout will be better than Silver.

THis whole argument is based on the premise that scout is better than silver at least some notable amt. of time which it isn't.

"All things considered, Copper is a significantly stronger card than Scout." -Eevee
I suspect this is a troll, but I will address it anyway. Eevee, Scout is better than Silver most of the time. Silver is better than Copper most of the time. We know this because of my response right above this one about how Scout passes the Silver Test. So, if we read that, we can say that Scout is almost always better than Copper. But think about it this way: Silver is better than King's Court 60-61% of the time, and Copper is 1/2 as bad as Silver. So Copper is better than King's Court 30-30.5% of the time. This means Scout is better than King's Court at least 30% of the time.

Copper and scout are close but I think scout might be slightly better?

[theright555J]

Copper and scout are close but I think scout might be slightly better?

In the case of playing scout and drawing no victory cards, it is actually worse than copper.

Playing scout and drawing one victory card, it is marginal (cycled one dead card but effectively did nothing) so I'd still say worse than copper given that you took the effort to add it to your deck.

Playing scout and drawing 2+ victory cards, it is probably better than copper, but not by much.

This is all assuming that you're unable to do anything with the top-deck inspection, but it's quite unusual to be able to get enough value out of that to push the balance in Scout's favor.

So most of the time Scout is worse than copper.

[Awaclus]

Yeah, I definitely trash Swindled Scouts over Coppers a lot of the time. Not always, though.

[Deadlock39]

If your deck has enough green in it to make Scout worth having, then Copper is probably a pretty good card for your deck.

[Mavy2k]

Well, I would pick scout over copper, if there is a remodel type card on the board.
Otherwise you would have to spend some effort in constructing a board where scout would actually be decent.
I can think of some boards where getting a scout can be okay, but none where it would be great.

[xyz123]

A deck type I have found Scout to be useful (although not enough to make it a must buy) in is a Scrying Pool/Vineyard deck. Clearing out the victory cards and re-ordering can help set up the next Scrying Pool draw.

[Limetime]

The reason why you buy scout is not to draw vp. The reason you should buy it is its a blitz game.

[A Drowned Kernel]

If only scout was a cantrip, then we wouldn't be having all these discussions about it

If Scout was a cantrip we would be comparing it directly to Cartographer and Apothecary.

It would still be weak. :p

What if Scout was a Village variant? Scout-effect + 2 actions + 1 card?

You mean like Wandering Minstrel?

Scout's effect on a village would still be weaker than Wandering Minstrel. That's how bad Scout is.

I actually think it would be pretty good.  The deck inspection and handsize increase can be very useful, enough that I think it would be competitive with Wandering Minstrel.  The comparison with Cartographer even makes me wonder if it should be $5.

It would be a solid $4 but not clearing out coppers and curses is rough.

[Roadrunner7671]

Let me try and be more helpful than Awaclus while still getting less upvotes.

Jeez, I didn't think I'd fail on both accounts. Seriously, why aren't these posts getting more upvotes?

Because they're wrong.

This has turned into a roast session for Scout, which I don't mind, but it's time for more updates in the OP. Sadly, I actually have work (for once) so that'll have to wait.