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Author Topic: Random Stuff Part III  (Read 657661 times)

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ashersky

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1750 on: September 19, 2016, 08:06:25 am »
0

Didn't I just say that I need to figure out what is the best charity before I donate the rest?

What's the maximum one is allowed to earn before thievery is allowed?

You are trying to get me to say controversial stuff because you don't like my arguments and want me to look bad in this discussion. Thievery is never allowed. What is allowed depends on laws. I'm not making laws. If you want to ask at which point I would think favorably about thievery, then I don't think I want to give you an exact answer. Obviously a line has to exist.

You think your answer would be controversial?

Okay, at what level of income do you think it should be legally allowed to have your money taken away unilaterally and without consent to be given to those who have less than you?

Does that wording work better for you?  It's your plan, man.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1751 on: September 19, 2016, 08:13:21 am »
0

Didn't I just say that I need to figure out what is the best charity before I donate the rest?

What's the maximum one is allowed to earn before thievery is allowed?

You are trying to get me to say controversial stuff because you don't like my arguments and want me to look bad in this discussion. Thievery is never allowed. What is allowed depends on laws. I'm not making laws. If you want to ask at which point I would think favorably about thievery, then I don't think I want to give you an exact answer. Obviously a line has to exist.

You think your answer would be controversial?

Okay, at what level of income do you think it should be legally allowed to have your money taken away unilaterally and without consent to be given to those who have less than you?

Does that wording work better for you?  It's your plan, man.

What "plan"? I never said anything about a plan to take away anyone's money which goes beyond pirating media. You are asking me hypotheticals. Which is fine, I did the same (although you didn't bother to respond to any), but don't invent things that aren't there.

It should never be legally allowed. That's a bad idea. If you want the state to do something, raise taxes and commit a large budget to fighting climate change. Something being moral does not imply that it should also be legal.

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1752 on: September 19, 2016, 09:37:29 am »
+1

Is this conversation because people need exercise in eye rolling?
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1753 on: September 19, 2016, 09:44:03 am »
+2

Is this conversation because people need exercise in eye rolling?

Your eyes are still in their sockets?
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Seprix

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1754 on: September 19, 2016, 09:58:25 am »
+1

Only outcomes matter? The ends do not always justify the means. That's morality 101.

That's what I've been told numerous times throughout my life and every time I just kept thinking IT'S NOT TRUE! IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT TRUE! IT MAKES ON SENSE! YOU AREN'T EVEN THINKING! ARGH!

Do you know what's even worse? No principles at all. Going in with "the ends justify the means" mindset is a disaster waiting to happen. Suppose your mother slaps you, and then tells you to stop hitting your brother. Massive hypocrite, right? And yet, the ends justify the means there. You'll stop. But man, great example from the mom.

Suppose you steal millions of dollars from someone who earned all of his millions legitimately. You donate it all to charity. Are you going to say then that stealing all of that money is right, simply because all of it went to charity? You must know on some superficial level that stealing is wrong. Again, this is morality 101.

Just because it is hard to implement some principled moralities does not make them wrong, and does not make no principles right.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1755 on: September 19, 2016, 09:59:26 am »
+1

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1756 on: September 19, 2016, 10:04:28 am »
+1

Since we need a change of pace,

http://imgur.com/gallery/K81U7

http://joancornella.net/

I do very much enjoy his work.  ;D I'll move the topic to RSP.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1757 on: September 19, 2016, 10:07:45 am »
0

Since we need a change of pace,

http://imgur.com/gallery/K81U7

http://joancornella.net/

I have an album with all his works apparently. He's good, but sometimes too black-ish
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1758 on: September 19, 2016, 10:08:55 am »
0

Since we need a change of pace,

http://imgur.com/gallery/K81U7

http://joancornella.net/

I have an album with all his works apparently. He's good, but sometimes too black-ish

What do you mean black?  They're always smiling!
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1759 on: September 19, 2016, 10:11:55 am »
0

Since we need a change of pace,

http://imgur.com/gallery/K81U7

http://joancornella.net/

I have an album with all his works apparently. He's good, but sometimes too black-ish

What do you mean black?  They're always smiling!

that's why it is a black humour
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Chris is me

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1760 on: September 19, 2016, 12:12:46 pm »
0

Only outcomes matter? The ends do not always justify the means. That's morality 101.

That's what I've been told numerous times throughout my life and every time I just kept thinking IT'S NOT TRUE! IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT TRUE! IT MAKES ON SENSE! YOU AREN'T EVEN THINKING! ARGH!

Do you know what's even worse? No principles at all. Going in with "the ends justify the means" mindset is a disaster waiting to happen. Suppose your mother slaps you, and then tells you to stop hitting your brother. Massive hypocrite, right? And yet, the ends justify the means there. You'll stop. But man, great example from the mom.

Suppose you steal millions of dollars from someone who earned all of his millions legitimately. You donate it all to charity. Are you going to say then that stealing all of that money is right, simply because all of it went to charity? You must know on some superficial level that stealing is wrong. Again, this is morality 101.

Just because it is hard to implement some principled moralities does not make them wrong, and does not make no principles right.

I'm not sure I agree with a purely utilitarian "only outcomes matter" result,  but your counter example is a really bad one. The outcome is not solely that the charity has money; the outcome also encompasses the dude losing the money. It would be very easy for someone who only thinks outcomes are the sole determiner of morality to discount your example as having too much of a negative outcome (theft) to justify the positive outcome.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1761 on: September 19, 2016, 12:23:17 pm »
0

I think the second example is fine. The millionaire's moral importance is insignificant compared to the amount of good that is done with donating such a large amount of money.

If you don't want to do something, always ask yourself if you would do the reverse. Would you kill 100 people (because that amount can easily be saved by a million dollars, let alone several million) in order to prevent the thievery from one guy? If not and you don't see how that makes the entire system fallible, I have to dig deeper to get to you.

So yes. That is absolutely a moral thing to do. It is not remotely close.

Your first example doesn't check out for a number of different reasons.

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1762 on: September 19, 2016, 12:57:34 pm »
0

Yes I can.  I cannot force you to acknowledge my ownership, but I also can't force you to acknowledge my ownership of my wallet, or my computer.  Just because it is easier to steal the former doesn't make it any less of a theft.

No you can't. Any abstract idea can be represented by a number and numbers just inherently exist.

Both of your premises are false, though I assume your first premise is intended to read "All abstract ideas that could be offered for sale/consumption can be represented by numbers," which is possibly true but I think still stretching reality.  I mean, good luck converting, say, Maria Abramovic's art into numbers.

Numbers may inherently exist, but specific numbers do not.  A 3-minute piece of music on CD is about 3 MB, or 24 Mbit.  (But sheet music!  No, lots of music can't be properly notated at sheet music.)  The number of numbers that long is 2^24000000.  The creator picked one of those numbers, and it wasn't at random.  Sure, you can't own the number, but you sure as hell can own the algorithm for determining the number.

Separately, I have a ton of ideas which I own solely because they are still in my head.  Good luck getting those for free.

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and something that you can infinitely duplicate shouldn't have any value.

Says who?  Who let you dictate societal norms and laws?  Ideas and words have value.

The law of supply and demand.

This may come as a shock, but the law of supply and demand is not the end of economics or of society.

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I would pay for the time they spend working on the game, but most game developers choose to do that for free instead.
No they don't.  Most game developers get paid in some fashion.  They require food and shelter just like you do.

The people who work for a company that develops games might get paid for their time by the company, but it's super rare for the company to get paid for that by the customers. Instead, the company gets paid for merchandise (e.g. game DVD ROMs) which is also understandable because the physical merch does have value too, and digital copies of the game, which is ridiculous.

Tell that to Notch.  Or one of the hundreds of game designers out there for whom the company is (or was) synonymous with the designer(s).

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It's worth noting that you can legally download my band's music for free and you can create whatever derivative works you want as long as those derivative works are released under the same license. While I want to do this just out of principle as well, I also think that it's the best strategy if we want to succeed as professional musicians because having people listen to our music for free is vastly preferable to having people not listen to our music at all.

And that's admirable, great!  But not every musician/filmmaker/author should be forced to follow that model.

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Mostly, intellectual property laws just serve to further benefit the record labels and artists who don't have any real financial issues to begin with, at the cost of artists who are just starting out.

Again, tell that to independent authors/musicians/filmmakers/artists who rely on intellectual property protections.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1763 on: September 19, 2016, 01:24:49 pm »
+1

Frankly, though, I do think that everytime you want to spend money on a movie or a game which you could get for free, you should instead get it for free and donate the same amount here or here.
Do you do this?

I've spent very little money on things I could get for free for several years now, and donated not quite half of my savings to GiveWell's Give Directly a while ago, so in effect I think I've been largely doing it. I did not do the literal thing of making lots of small donations every time. I'm pretty sure I don't actually have enough money to pay for all music and movies I have on my hard drive even if you subtract the above amount.

Right now I'm trying to figure out whether it's crazy to donate to anything not related to climate change even if it's efficient. I mostly chose Give Directly to make sure charity doesn't have the humiliating factor. "I am wealthy, I will do this thing for you, you will be grateful." Or things like destroying local businesses by donating old clothes. With direct donations I imagine it's quite easy to ... well maybe not forget that it is charity, but not be bothered by it, and it doesn't damage their economy, and it's sure not to be spent on useless things since they can decide themselves what they need most, and it's documented that most of it is in fact used for very essential things. ... still it won't help us at all to avoid global collapse. So I'm sure it's better than keeping it, but it might be much worse than other causes. I might retract that donation and give it to the second thing I linked instead, if I could (which of course I can't).

But why don't you donate without illegally downloading all that stuff?
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Awaclus

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1764 on: September 19, 2016, 01:31:40 pm »
0

Tell that to Notch.  Or one of the hundreds of game designers out there for whom the company is (or was) synonymous with the designer(s).

Notch and the hundreds of game designers out there for whom the company is (or was) synonymous with the designer(s) ought to be paid for their time and their work, not for copies of numbers.

And that's admirable, great!  But not every musician/filmmaker/author should be forced to follow that model.

Why not? Every other profession is "forced" to follow that model (where they get paid for the work they actually do, not for copies of numbers), too.

Again, tell that to independent authors/musicians/filmmakers/artists who rely on intellectual property protections.

Been there, done that.

But why don't you donate without illegally downloading all that stuff?

According to utilitarianism, it's better to illegally download stuff that you enjoy than not having that stuff at all.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 01:34:07 pm by Awaclus »
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Seprix

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1765 on: September 19, 2016, 01:44:56 pm »
+1

But why don't you donate without illegally downloading all that stuff?

According to utilitarianism, it's better to illegally download stuff that you enjoy than not having that stuff at all.

Better for you, but better for the developer? Absolutely not. Utilitarianism is thinly veiled selfishness disguised as a legitimate ideology.
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Awaclus

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1766 on: September 19, 2016, 01:47:21 pm »
0

But why don't you donate without illegally downloading all that stuff?

According to utilitarianism, it's better to illegally download stuff that you enjoy than not having that stuff at all.

Better for you, but better for the developer? Absolutely not. Utilitarianism is thinly veiled selfishness disguised as a legitimate ideology.

Better for me and better for the developer.
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Seprix

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1767 on: September 19, 2016, 01:48:04 pm »
0

But why don't you donate without illegally downloading all that stuff?

According to utilitarianism, it's better to illegally download stuff that you enjoy than not having that stuff at all.

Better for you, but better for the developer? Absolutely not. Utilitarianism is thinly veiled selfishness disguised as a legitimate ideology.

Better for me and better for the developer.

Why is it better for the developer? I would rather nobody use my product than someone use it and not pay for it.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1768 on: September 19, 2016, 01:49:42 pm »
0

Why is it better for the developer? I would rather nobody use my product than someone use it and not pay for it.

Because if someone uses it and likes it, they're going to tell their friends about it.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1769 on: September 19, 2016, 01:50:06 pm »
0

But why don't you donate without illegally downloading all that stuff?

According to utilitarianism, it's better to illegally download stuff that you enjoy than not having that stuff at all.

Better for you, but better for the developer? Absolutely not. Utilitarianism is thinly veiled selfishness disguised as a legitimate ideology.

I think you're kind of intentionally cutting corners and implicitly assuming utilitarianism is saying things that it is not saying.

In the exact scenario described, he is right - if the only two options are illegal download or not acquire at all, it is obviously better for you to download it, and at worst it has no effect on the content creator. At best there is "exposure" which has nonzero value.

You implicitly assumed a third option existed (like it does in reality) of paying for the work conventionally, but that wasn't present in the argument. Utilitarianism is not saying illegal downloading is more ethical than paying for it, at all.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1770 on: September 19, 2016, 01:51:42 pm »
0

Why is it better for the developer? I would rather nobody use my product than someone use it and not pay for it.

Because if someone uses it and likes it, they're going to tell their friends about it.

...Who will then also download it illegally.

But why don't you donate without illegally downloading all that stuff?

According to utilitarianism, it's better to illegally download stuff that you enjoy than not having that stuff at all.

Better for you, but better for the developer? Absolutely not. Utilitarianism is thinly veiled selfishness disguised as a legitimate ideology.

I think you're kind of intentionally cutting corners and implicitly assuming utilitarianism is saying things that it is not saying.

In the exact scenario described, he is right - if the only two options are illegal download or not acquire at all, it is obviously better for you to download it, and at worst it has no effect on the content creator. At best there is "exposure" which has nonzero value.

You implicitly assumed a third option existed (like it does in reality) of paying for the work conventionally, but that wasn't present in the argument. Utilitarianism is not saying illegal downloading is more ethical than paying for it, at all.

The argument itself was bogus, presenting only two options where more exist.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1771 on: September 19, 2016, 01:57:17 pm »
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...Who will then also download it illegally.

And tell their friends about it. By the end of the day, you've gained a bunch of fans for free. That's super useful to a creator.

The argument itself was bogus, presenting only two options where more exist.

It was eHalcyon who was suggesting that silverspawn should neither pay for entertainment nor download it illegally, because reasons.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1772 on: September 19, 2016, 01:58:11 pm »
0

But why don't you donate without illegally downloading all that stuff?

According to utilitarianism, it's better to illegally download stuff that you enjoy than not having that stuff at all.

Better for you, but better for the developer? Absolutely not. Utilitarianism is thinly veiled selfishness disguised as a legitimate ideology.

I think you're kind of intentionally cutting corners and implicitly assuming utilitarianism is saying things that it is not saying.

In the exact scenario described, he is right - if the only two options are illegal download or not acquire at all, it is obviously better for you to download it, and at worst it has no effect on the content creator. At best there is "exposure" which has nonzero value.

You implicitly assumed a third option existed (like it does in reality) of paying for the work conventionally, but that wasn't present in the argument. Utilitarianism is not saying illegal downloading is more ethical than paying for it, at all.

But it does. It absolutely does. According to Utilitarianism, it is absolutely better to give the same amount to a charity. How can you dispute that?

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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1773 on: September 19, 2016, 02:00:51 pm »
+1

...Who will then also download it illegally.

And tell their friends about it. By the end of the day, you've gained a bunch of fans for free. That's super useful to a creator.

It can be useful, but it is still thievery. And at the end of the day, if everyone is a utilitarian who thinks the way that you do, why does anybody have to pay for anything? Your very luxury of not paying for content is supported by thousands upon thousands who do end up paying for it. If nobody pays for it, there will be no product. If this is the case, why skirt around the rules and mooch off of someone else's hard work?

Quote
The argument itself was bogus, presenting only two options where more exist.

It was eHalcyon who was suggesting that silverspawn should neither pay for entertainment nor download it illegally, because reasons.

True. It is obvious that handling with this concept in theory is going to be tricky, because the real world is usually more complicated than theoretical land.
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Re: Random Stuff Part III
« Reply #1774 on: September 19, 2016, 02:06:03 pm »
+1

...Who will then also download it illegally.

And tell their friends about it. By the end of the day, you've gained a bunch of fans for free. That's super useful to a creator.

It can be useful, but it is still thievery. And at the end of the day, if everyone is a utilitarian who thinks the way that you do, why does anybody have to pay for anything? Your very luxury of not paying for content is supported by thousands upon thousands who do end up paying for it. If nobody pays for it, there will be no product. If this is the case, why skirt around the rules and mooch off of someone else's hard work?

Quote
The argument itself was bogus, presenting only two options where more exist.

It was eHalcyon who was suggesting that silverspawn should neither pay for entertainment nor download it illegally, because reasons.

True. It is obvious that handling with this concept in theory is going to be tricky, because the real world is usually more complicated than theoretical land.

I was waiting for an answer so I could elaborate with basically what you have here. I don't think a system works if it breaks down upon everyone following it. silverspawn already said that thievery should be illegal, so I'm wondering how he justifies it for himself. There's no reason for it to be tied to the donations. Doing a good deed doesn't give you a license to do a bad deed after.
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