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Author Topic: Card Idea: Miser  (Read 2987 times)

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LastFootnote

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Card Idea: Miser
« on: January 13, 2012, 03:32:16 pm »
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Miser
Type: Action
Cost: $5
Look through your discard pile, reveal up to 4 Silver cards from it, and put them on top of your deck.


EDIT: Sorry for just posting the card idea with no explanation. I made the original post from my phone, and I'm not that adept at typing on it.

Anyhow, I'm looking for input on the strength and swinginess of this card. The parallels to Counting House are obvious, but apart than that I can't think of any card that really does anything similar. As a result, I'm having trouble visualizing how it might be played.

Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 04:04:30 pm by LastFootnote »
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rrenaud

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Re: Card Idea: Miser
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 04:18:49 pm »
+1

To me, it feels vaguely like Stash/Chancellor rolled into one.

The Counting House deck timing issue always annoyed me.  It's too hard to really work with reliably, even when you have helper cards.
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rinkworks

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Re: Card Idea: Miser
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 05:05:00 pm »
+2

It's certainly swingy, as it might group 4 Silvers or it might do nothing at all.  But discard pile searchers are always going to be swingy (unless there's a built-in way to fill the discard pile or to otherwise ensure that it only gets played when there is stuff in it), so let's accept that fact and analyze its power.

First, what is the average number of Silvers this card is likely to retrieve?  Well, the average case is that you get this when you're in the middle of your shuffle.  (Let's be charitable and assume no drawing cards.)  That means (n-5)/2 cards are in your discard pile, (n-5)/2 cards are in your deck, and 5 cards are in your hand.  To figure out what percentage of our total cards are in the discard pile, we have to know what "n" is.  Let's say n=15.  In that case, one third of your deck will be in the discard pile.  But for n=35, you'll actually have almost 43% of your deck in the discard pile.

So let's say that, in the average case, Miser will be able to retrieve 40% of your Silvers.  That means that to find 4 Silvers on average, you need to have 10 in your deck.  (This is consistent with the fact that you start out with 7 Coppers, and Counting House seems to average pulling about 3.)  Ten Silvers is a lot of Silvers.  In the absence of Silver-gainers, it's rare that you'll ever get this many.

However, do you need to find 4 Silvers for the card to be worth having and playing?  Certainly if the Silvers went to your hand, you would be happy just finding two!  Then the card effectively amounts to a +$4 vanilla bonus.  If you only find one, well, a terminal +$2 isn't very good for a $5 card, but it's not a total bust.

However, the cards don't go to your hand -- they go to the top of your deck.  That's a lot weaker, and not only because you don't realize the extra money until the next turn.  It's weaker because it slows down the cycling of newly purchased cards into your hand.  It's also weaker because in neither turn -- not in the current one, or in the next one -- do you get those Silvers as "extra" cards.  Next turn, you get the Silvers instead of an equal number of other cards.

So the monetary increase you can expect next hand must be compared to your deck's average card value.  At the beginning of the game, that's $0.7.  Except under rare circumstances, that will very quickly rise to over $1.  In Colony games, you kind of need to get above $2, but I think it's safe to say this card will be better in Province games, and so we can restrict our analysis to that.  To buy a Province, you need an average card value of $1.6.

What I'm leading up to is that your next turn's monetary increase is the total value of your Silvers minus the monetary value of the cards you would have drawn instead.  So early on, maybe that's an extra +$1 per Silver.  Later, maybe closer to +$0.5 per Silver.  Thus, drawing four Silvers means +$4 next turn in the early-mid-game, and +$2 next turn in the late-mid-game.

Well, obviously +$2 next turn is awful, but +$4 next turn sounds pretty good.  The problem is, that's when you find four Silvers, and as I mentioned earlier, you probably aren't going to find four Silvers unless you've got ten total in your deck.  If you ever get that many in the first place, it'll be the late-mid-game by the time you do, and then they aren't really worth +$4 for you anymore!

So I think ultimately this is not a very desirable card, especially with a $5 price tag.  The situations where you might want it are probably:

(1) When junking attacks are in play, fattening your deck and spreading out your good cards.  Miser will help you group Silvers together for a good turn.  Plus, if you're getting Cursed, Miser will help slow down the infusion of those Curses into your hand.
(2) When Silver-gainers are in play, inflating the number of Silvers you have in your deck.  This goes especially for Trader, but Jack and Bureaucrat probably apply as well.

Note, though, that if you have (2) in the absence of (1), Miser is probably still a bad card.  Because if you're getting lots of Silvers, that increases your average card value, which in turn diminishes the effective monetary increase you're liable to see next turn.  In other words, if you can accrue a density of Silver anyway, there's no need for a card to group them together.

Now, a card that retrieved Silver AND Gold from the discard might be another matter.  Still swingy and still subject to a lot of the same weaknesses I've outlined above, but the extra power might be enough to overcome those weaknesses in some decks.
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FishingVillage

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Re: Card Idea: Miser
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 05:30:13 pm »
+1

I can't really imagine myself being enthusiastic to see this in the supply as is :\

It's about as useful as Counting House, which is possibly good but relies on a lot of factors in its favor. Counting House also makes the Coppers immediately useful by putting them into hand, but Miser just leaves them for next turn (which would likely be a Province, if no attacks are played or something). And a tiny nit pick, you have to build up on Silvers before Miser is useful to you, otherwise it literally does nothing. I hope I don't come across implying that Silvers are not worth picking up, but at least the starting deck has Copper, so opening Counting House with 5/2 is immediately useful (possibly).

I think it'd be cool if this card could be played from the discard (with a very hefty activation cost), or is a little more flexible when played. Will be interesting to see what you try :)

Edit: rinkworks' monster post is pretty detailed O_O
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card Idea: Miser
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 06:57:17 pm »
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Thanks for the input, everyone!

Rinkworks, your assessment of the card's drawbacks is the same as mine was. It slows down your progress through the deck and requires you to invest heavily in Silver to get real use out of it. But you also put into clear focus how few Silvers you're actually likely to draw most of the time. I did intend the card to be useful primarily when A) you're getting your deck junked up by your opponent and B) when you're greening at the end of the game. However, it's almost certainly not useful enough.

The card definitely suffers from Bureaucrat-itis in that it usually does nothing for your current turn and the benefit you derive from it isn't enough to outweigh that. The way I see it, there are two obvious ways to fix it. First, make it do something for your current turn. A flat +$2 might do the trick. Second, make the next-turn benefit better. Here's an attempted fix:

Miser
Type: Action
Cost: $5
Name a Treasure card. Look through the discard pile, reveal up to 4 copies of the named card from it, and put them on top of your deck.

EDIT: Actually, that isn't really any better unless you've got a ton of Gold (like from Hoard) or Fool's Gold. Hmm....
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 06:59:35 pm by LastFootnote »
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jonts26

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Re: Card Idea: Miser
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 08:05:00 pm »
+1

Perhaps you could add a vanilla bonus to the card to make it hurt this turn less? Even something like +$2 would work wonders.

Or you could alter the card to say, select up to 4 treasures from your discard and put them on top of your deck. That might make it a lot more versitile and fun strategically.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Card Idea: Miser
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2012, 02:56:07 am »
+1

Or this could be fun:

Miser
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Look in all discard piles and choose up to four Coppers and put them into your hand.

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rinkworks

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Re: Card Idea: Miser
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2012, 05:27:17 pm »
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4 copies of any named card really opens up the strategy space.  It's like a Scheme-after-the-fact, although the lack of any vanilla bonuses is still a big drawback.

I also love MMM's suggestion.  What a way to shake things up.  With Gardens, you could have a real war on your hands.
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jonts26

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Re: Card Idea: Miser
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2012, 05:48:05 pm »
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Miser
Type: Action
Cost: $5
Name a Treasure card. Look through the discard pile, reveal up to 4 copies of the named card from it, and put them on top of your deck.

EDIT: Actually, that isn't really any better unless you've got a ton of Gold (like from Hoard) or Fool's Gold. Hmm....

This card might end up being ventures best friend.
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popsofctown

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Re: Card Idea: Miser
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2012, 09:19:29 pm »
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Or this could be fun:

Miser
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Look in all discard piles and choose up to four Coppers and put them into your hand.
ooooh I like it.
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Kirian

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Re: Card Idea: Miser
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2012, 11:03:07 pm »
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One of the major problems with Counting House has always been "Crap I drew this right after the shuffle.  It's useless now."  So how about this, building a bit on jonts's suggestion:

Miser -- Action -- $5
Choose one:
Examine your discard pile.  Choose and reveal up to three treasures and set them aside.  At the end of your turn, place the treasures on top of your deck.
OR
+1 Card, +1 Action.  At the end of your turn, you may place this card on top of your deck.
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