Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Processing BoM-as-Embargo  (Read 4069 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

florrat

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 542
  • Shuffle iT Username: florrat
  • Respect: +748
    • View Profile
Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« on: December 08, 2015, 02:03:11 am »
+2

Suppose I play Procession on a Band of Misfits, emulating Embargo.
I play BoM-as-Embargo, execute its actions, trash BoM-as-Embargo, and the BoM reverts to being a BoM. For the second time I play BoM, I can choose a different action.
So far, all I've said follows the Band of Misfits wiki page. But what happens next?

(1) Suppose I choose Hamlet as my second action. I execute all its actions as normal. But for how long will the BoM be a hamlet? Will it revert to being a BoM the moment I choose Hamlet (since it's not in play?)? Until I resolve its play action? Or will it stay a Hamlet much longer (since it hasn't left play yet)?

(2) Suppose I choose Rats as my second action. After doing all the Rats-stuff, Procession commands me to trash BoM, which is already in the trash. Does this trigger the on-trash effect of Rats? (Does "trashing a card which already is in the trash" count as trashing a card?)

(3) If I choose Fortress as my second action, does the BoM end up in my hand after finishing the Procession action? (This is a separate question, because it requires moving cards, and I'm not sure how the lose-track rule applies here. If any card has a good reason to lose track of itself, it's a Fortress finding itself in the trash.)
Logged

scott_pilgrim

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1102
  • Respect: +2146
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2015, 02:12:24 am »
+2

(2) Suppose I choose Rats as my second action. After doing all the Rats-stuff, Procession commands me to trash BoM, which is already in the trash. Does this trigger the on-trash effect of Rats? (Does "trashing a card which already is in the trash" count as trashing a card?)

(3) If I choose Fortress as my second action, does the BoM end up in my hand after finishing the Procession action? (This is a separate question, because it requires moving cards, and I'm not sure how the lose-track rule applies here. If any card has a good reason to lose track of itself, it's a Fortress finding itself in the trash.)

For these two, I'm pretty sure that it's been ruled before that you only "trashed" the card if it moved from somewhere (a non-trash place) to the trash.  So on-trash effects would not trigger, since the card is already in the trash.

I have no idea about the first question.

Edit: But now I'm thinking about it and maybe you could still make the same confusing situation happen if you first play BoM as Island rather than Embargo, so that it's not in the trash.  I'm guessing in that case it's lost track of itself?  Assuming that's correct, the on-trash effects still wouldn't trigger because it never got moved to the trash.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 02:18:24 am by scott_pilgrim »
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3304
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4458
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2015, 03:04:54 am »
+3

Suppose I play Procession on a Band of Misfits, emulating Embargo.
I play BoM-as-Embargo, execute its actions, trash BoM-as-Embargo, and the BoM reverts to being a BoM. For the second time I play BoM, I can choose a different action.
So far, all I've said follows the Band of Misfits wiki page. But what happens next?

(1) Suppose I choose Hamlet as my second action. I execute all its actions as normal. But for how long will the BoM be a hamlet? Will it revert to being a BoM the moment I choose Hamlet (since it's not in play?)? Until I resolve its play action? Or will it stay a Hamlet much longer (since it hasn't left play yet)?

The first of your three options: it only "becomes" a Hamlet instantaneously; Donald has ruled that if something is not in the play area, then the time "until it leaves play" is zero.

Quote
(2) Suppose I choose Rats as my second action. After doing all the Rats-stuff, Procession commands me to trash BoM, which is already in the trash. Does this trigger the on-trash effect of Rats? (Does "trashing a card which already is in the trash" count as trashing a card?)

No, it doesn't. This goes back to the original Throne Room / Mining Village ruling, I think. Procession has lost track of Band of Misfits, so it can't even try to trash it; and even if it could, if something is already in the trash it can't be trashed. (Moreover, Band of Misfits doesn't spend any time a Rats, so the on-trash effect of Rats wouldn't become relevant anyway.)

Quote
(3) If I choose Fortress as my second action, does the BoM end up in my hand after finishing the Procession action? (This is a separate question, because it requires moving cards, and I'm not sure how the lose-track rule applies here. If any card has a good reason to lose track of itself, it's a Fortress finding itself in the trash.)

No. Same answer as above. Fortress goes in your hand when you trash it, but that card doesn't spend any time as a Fortress and it doesn't get trashed because it's already in the trash.
Logged

dane-m

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 162
  • Shuffle iT Username: dane-m
  • Respect: +198
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2015, 03:31:19 am »
0

Quote
(2) Suppose I choose Rats as my second action. After doing all the Rats-stuff, Procession commands me to trash BoM, which is already in the trash. Does this trigger the on-trash effect of Rats? (Does "trashing a card which already is in the trash" count as trashing a card?)

No, it doesn't. This goes back to the original Throne Room / Mining Village ruling, I think. Procession has lost track of Band of Misfits, so it can't even try to trash it; and even if it could, if something is already in the trash it can't be trashed. (Moreover, Band of Misfits doesn't spend any time a Rats, so the on-trash effect of Rats wouldn't become relevant anyway.)
I think that from a rules point of view the only relevant point is the first one that you make, namely that Procession has lost track of BoM so cannot trash it.

Your second point, namely that something in the trash can't be trashed, is quite possibly the way that many people think of the lose-track rule in this instance, but it's not the rule as such and it doesn't cover other manifestations of the lose-track rule, e.g. when the card has moved out of the play area to somewhere other than the trash.

I believe your third point is in a sense wrong.  BoM spent long enough as Rats for the instructions on Rats to be caused to take place.  As the instruction on Rats simply says "When you trash this", it wouldn't matter that BoM was no longer Rats at the time of trashing.  All that matters is that BoM doesn't get trashed because of your first point.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3413
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 07:55:58 am »
0

Suppose I play Procession on a Band of Misfits, emulating Embargo.
I play BoM-as-Embargo, execute its actions, trash BoM-as-Embargo, and the BoM reverts to being a BoM. For the second time I play BoM, I can choose a different action.
So far, all I've said follows the Band of Misfits wiki page. But what happens next?

(1) Suppose I choose Hamlet as my second action. I execute all its actions as normal. But for how long will the BoM be a hamlet? Will it revert to being a BoM the moment I choose Hamlet (since it's not in play?)? Until I resolve its play action? Or will it stay a Hamlet much longer (since it hasn't left play yet)?

(2) Suppose I choose Rats as my second action. After doing all the Rats-stuff, Procession commands me to trash BoM, which is already in the trash. Does this trigger the on-trash effect of Rats? (Does "trashing a card which already is in the trash" count as trashing a card?)

(3) If I choose Fortress as my second action, does the BoM end up in my hand after finishing the Procession action? (This is a separate question, because it requires moving cards, and I'm not sure how the lose-track rule applies here. If any card has a good reason to lose track of itself, it's a Fortress finding itself in the trash.)
1) I think it's never actually a Hamlet (it's never in play), but still plays as one, because you execute the text that is on Hamlet.
2) I don't think you get the on-trash effect for things that are already in the trash, you have to actually trash them, just like you can't get Mining Village's +$2 more than once; also because BoM is never actually a Rats
3) I don't think so, like 2) you don't trash it again because it's already in the trash, so the effect doesn't trigger

I believe things like TR and Procession lock onto the text on the card, rather than the actual physical card.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

florrat

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 542
  • Shuffle iT Username: florrat
  • Respect: +748
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2015, 10:12:50 am »
0

Thanks. That seems reasonable.
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3304
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4458
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2015, 10:50:31 am »
+2

Quote
(2) Suppose I choose Rats as my second action. After doing all the Rats-stuff, Procession commands me to trash BoM, which is already in the trash. Does this trigger the on-trash effect of Rats? (Does "trashing a card which already is in the trash" count as trashing a card?)

No, it doesn't. This goes back to the original Throne Room / Mining Village ruling, I think. Procession has lost track of Band of Misfits, so it can't even try to trash it; and even if it could, if something is already in the trash it can't be trashed. (Moreover, Band of Misfits doesn't spend any time a Rats, so the on-trash effect of Rats wouldn't become relevant anyway.)
I think that from a rules point of view the only relevant point is the first one that you make, namely that Procession has lost track of BoM so cannot trash it.

Your second point, namely that something in the trash can't be trashed, is quite possibly the way that many people think of the lose-track rule in this instance, but it's not the rule as such and it doesn't cover other manifestations of the lose-track rule, e.g. when the card has moved out of the play area to somewhere other than the trash.

I vaguely remember that there might be occasions where "something already in the trash can't be trashed" matters as a rule even in a case where the lose-track rule doesn't apply. But I'm not certain.

Quote
I believe your third point is in a sense wrong.  BoM spent long enough as Rats for the instructions on Rats to be caused to take place.  As the instruction on Rats simply says "When you trash this", it wouldn't matter that BoM was no longer Rats at the time of trashing.  All that matters is that BoM doesn't get trashed because of your first point.

The instructions on Rats take place because they're what happens when you play Rats. The below-the-line text on Rats doesn't get triggered, and no Rats gets trashed.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9416
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2015, 11:17:29 am »
+2

This is all moot, as you can't play a different action the second time.  If you play Procession, play BoM, choose Embargo, you'll play Embargo twice, then gain a $6 action.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3846
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2437
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2015, 11:29:26 am »
+2

This is all moot, as you can't play a different action the second time.  If you play Procession, play BoM, choose Embargo, you'll play Embargo twice, then gain a $6 action.

Not since Donald X.V.'s latest ruling on BoM. Check the "Other Rules Clarifications" section of the Wiki. I don't know which thread Donald overturned the old rule on BoM, but it had to do with how the Adventures tokens work with BoM.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9416
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2015, 11:34:03 am »
0

This is all moot, as you can't play a different action the second time.  If you play Procession, play BoM, choose Embargo, you'll play Embargo twice, then gain a $6 action.

Not since Donald X.V.'s latest ruling on BoM. Check the "Other Rules Clarifications" section of the Wiki. I don't know which thread Donald overturned the old rule on BoM, but it had to do with how the Adventures tokens work with BoM.

Ah, I had only examined the official FAQ on the wiki page.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9721
  • Respect: +10792
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2015, 11:41:59 am »
0

This is all moot, as you can't play a different action the second time.  If you play Procession, play BoM, choose Embargo, you'll play Embargo twice, then gain a $6 action.

Not since Donald X.V.'s latest ruling on BoM. Check the "Other Rules Clarifications" section of the Wiki. I don't know which thread Donald overturned the old rule on BoM, but it had to do with how the Adventures tokens work with BoM.

I believe it's in here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13115.0
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5352
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2015, 12:18:47 pm »
0

I think i was among the fds members who nagged the most about Donald's old BoM/TR ruling. And while i doubt my complaints were involved in the process of Donald changing his mind, i still wonder whether i should have complained as much. I still think the rules are more logical this way, but having rules changed is not such a great thing, either. Maybe better than having a hard-coded rule, but not by that much.
Logged

Roadrunner7671

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1845
  • Shuffle iT Username: Roadrunner7672
  • Forum Mafia Record: 18-33-2
  • Respect: +1347
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2015, 12:21:24 pm »
0

Here's my question: after processing a BOM, do you gain an action card costing $1 more than the action card you imitated or do you gain an action card costing $6?
Logged
Oh God someone delete this before Roadrunner sees it.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9721
  • Respect: +10792
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2015, 12:27:42 pm »
+1

Here's my question: after processing a BOM, do you gain an action card costing $1 more than the action card you imitated or do you gain an action card costing $6?

An action card costing . This is because when the game checks to see what the cost of the trashed card was, the trashed card (BoM) is already in the trash, and thus is a BoM.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4995
  • Respect: +5352
    • View Profile
Re: Processing BoM-as-Embargo
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2015, 01:00:07 pm »
+2

Here's my question: after processing a BOM, do you gain an action card costing $1 more than the action card you imitated or do you gain an action card costing $6?

An action card costing . This is because when the game checks to see what the cost of the trashed card was, the trashed card (BoM) is already in the trash, and thus is a BoM.

Which means you have to be aware that the "lose track" rule only applies when a card tries to move a card. It doesn't apply when trying to get information on it. For example, Processing BoM as Islands will fail to trash it, but still find BoM to look at its cost.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.05 seconds with 20 queries.