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GeneralRamos

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The cards keep coming
« on: December 02, 2015, 10:15:54 am »
+5

Okay, I have been posting my cards in batches. This is most of the rest of what I have. It includes a few more cards exploring the passing mechanic. I know some people have been wary about this privileging one player over another, but I think it works well enough, and especially in the two-player context that I and the friend for whom these are going to be a gift play. Still, I welcome considerations that might affect 3- and 4-player.

Regent

The player faces a dilemma: use a powerful, almost-Grand Market, one-shot action then give it to your neighbor along with the two points and hope it makes it back around to you before endgame, or retain the points for yourself.

Changeling

A sort of Golem variant. Should maybe cost $4. You steal an action from your neighbors deck and play it as your own. The card must be played, even if it's something you'd rather not (e.g., ambassador in a hand full of good cards, or mandatory trasher) and keep it. In exchange, that player gets the changeling in their deck.

Cursed Idol

Playtested this initially as a copper costing $3, but it was too powerful when stacked. Increased cost to $4 for beginning-of-game purposes, decreased coin production to $0. The drawback to such a powerful curser is the -1VP of the card itself, and the top-decking of green. The common -VP critique about disparity in power between trashing and non-trashing games is mitigated, I think, by the fact that good trashers also mitigates the cursing effect.

Antiques

Modified version of another fan card I saw, though I'm not sure from where now. An expensive copper initially, worth more than gold once a pile is gone, and worth a point if the game ends on three piles depleted (or more). A sort of city variant that is nothing like city in type.

Concubine

Originally started as a Harem variant. My wife and I have played with this card for quite some time, and both really enjoy it. It is, admittedly, quite strong, and especially in its weakening of handsize attacks by setting aside coins immune from opponents.

Shaman

A two-shot card, essentially. The first time, it is a lab. The second time, akin to playing two villages and a smithy (start turn with 2 actions, 7 cards). But then you have to give it up to an opponent, top-decking it even.

Buried Treasure

A variant on Fairgrounds, Horn of Plenty, and Bank. Weaker than bank in that variety, not simple numbers of treasures, determines value--so a giant hand isn't necessarily a boon to it. On a board with no other kingdom treasures, it maxes at $4/4VP (or $5/5VP with Platinum). With more, it can rival and surpass Province for points (as the cheaper Fairgrounds can ion many boards).

Iconoclast

One of my earlier ideas. A bishop variant. But instead of rewarding you for trashing higher value cards with more VP tokens, it attacks other opponents VP tokens, or doles out curses if they have none to lose. Players start with some protection, according to number of players. Giving coin still encourages buy, and it faces the same constraint on limitless game by forced trashing--you'll eventually run out of cards. That said, it faces the exact same combos that bishop has for extending the game. It lacks, however, the benefit to other players that Bishop has, so I wonder if, upon playing, all other players should draw a card or something.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 10:16:55 am by GeneralRamos »
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GendoIkari

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2015, 10:49:57 am »
0

Regent-Prince is a pretty insane combo.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2015, 11:06:26 am »
0

I'm not sure. Prince read "..setting it aside when you discard it from play." So you would still discard Regent from play, meaning it gets passed at that moment, right before being set aside, right? I'm trying to wrap my head around the scheme-hermit/prince-hermit parallel case and how that is similar/different to the case here.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2015, 11:18:06 am »
+1

I'm not sure. Prince read "..setting it aside when you discard it from play." So you would still discard Regent from play, meaning it gets passed at that moment, right before being set aside, right? I'm trying to wrap my head around the scheme-hermit/prince-hermit parallel case and how that is similar/different to the case here.

By my understanding, when you discard it from play 2 things trigger, the Prince text and the Regent text. You would get to choose the order they happen in. Whichever you choose to happen first, the other one will fail because of lose-track.

*Edit* Actually, I'm not sure you would have a choice. "The player to your left gains this" is something that happens to the player to your left, not to you. So the Prince text, which happens to you, automatically happens first, so it is set aside, then the other text has lost track.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 11:19:56 am by GendoIkari »
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LastFootnote

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2015, 11:32:12 am »
+1

Changeling

A sort of Golem variant. Should maybe cost $4. You steal an action from your neighbors deck and play it as your own. The card must be played, even if it's something you'd rather not (e.g., ambassador in a hand full of good cards, or mandatory trasher) and keep it. In exchange, that player gets the changeling in their deck.

Cute idea. One issue with "gain a card and then play it" is that you can intercept the card gain (with e.g. Watchtower) before playing it. This means that the card you gained gets played, but doesn't end up in play, so you can potentially play it again on your turn. I mean it's not rules-ambiguous, but it is really tough for tracking purposes. Options are:

Gain the card to your hand (and have Changeling give +1 Action). This is the simplest, but the play of the card is no longer mandatory.
Gain the card. Then, if it's the top card of your discard pile, play it. This doesn't work on Nomad Camp and is a little wonky, but works.
Gain the card, setting it aside. If you did, play it. Potentially confusing. Most players will wonder why it's being set aside first instead of played directly.
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tristan

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2015, 11:42:23 am »
0

I fail to see why Cursed Idol is a powerful curser. Unless there are alternative Victory cards you start to green late in the game, quite some moves after any other Curser would have hit. And in addition to cursing very late in the game, the card is dead, a Curse and has to topdeck the purchased Victory card to actually curse.
Just compare it with Sea Hag, the only other Curser which does nothing for you. Besides not costing an action to play Cursed Idol is stricly worse.

About passing in general, with Masquerade it is a nice mechanism for several reasons. Masquerade trashes but if the other players also have Masquerades you do not want to trash to heavily lest you gotta pass a good card.

I do not see how cards that pass themselves create tension and tricky decisions. They are one-shots which you might get back, that's it. Sure, you will buy Regent if you wanna hit 5 or 6 at turn 3 or 4 and do not mind that the other player then gets it but IMO this does not suffice to make the card interesting enough.

I like Antiques and Buried Treasure although I am not sure about the appropriate price for the latter. Iconoclast is the most interesting card and most likely well balanced at 4$
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 11:44:23 am by tristan »
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AJD

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2015, 12:37:32 pm »
0

I'm not sure. Prince read "..setting it aside when you discard it from play." So you would still discard Regent from play, meaning it gets passed at that moment, right before being set aside, right? I'm trying to wrap my head around the scheme-hermit/prince-hermit parallel case and how that is similar/different to the case here.

By my understanding, when you discard it from play 2 things trigger, the Prince text and the Regent text. You would get to choose the order they happen in. Whichever you choose to happen first, the other one will fail because of lose-track.

*Edit* Actually, I'm not sure you would have a choice. "The player to your left gains this" is something that happens to the player to your left, not to you. So the Prince text, which happens to you, automatically happens first, so it is set aside, then the other text has lost track.

The obvious resolution to this is "when you would discard this from play, instead the player to your left gains it." Cancels the overpowered interaction with Prince and Scheme, which is probably desirable; maintains the powerful combo with Procession, which is probably also fine.
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AJD

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2015, 12:38:55 pm »
0

I fail to see why Cursed Idol is a powerful curser. Unless there are alternative Victory cards you start to green late in the game, quite some moves after any other Curser would have hit. And in addition to cursing very late in the game, the card is dead, a Curse and has to topdeck the purchased Victory card to actually curse.
Just compare it with Sea Hag, the only other Curser which does nothing for you. Besides not costing an action to play Cursed Idol is stricly worse.

I agree. Also, for rules reason, "if you buy a Victory card" should probably be "if you gain" instead.
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AJD

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2015, 12:41:47 pm »
0

Changeling

A sort of Golem variant. Should maybe cost $4. You steal an action from your neighbors deck and play it as your own. The card must be played, even if it's something you'd rather not (e.g., ambassador in a hand full of good cards, or mandatory trasher) and keep it. In exchange, that player gets the changeling in their deck.

Cute idea. One issue with "gain a card and then play it" is that you can intercept the card gain (with e.g. Watchtower) before playing it. This means that the card you gained gets played, but doesn't end up in play, so you can potentially play it again on your turn. I mean it's not rules-ambiguous, but it is really tough for tracking purposes. Options are:

Gain the card to your hand (and have Changeling give +1 Action). This is the simplest, but the play of the card is no longer mandatory.
Gain the card. Then, if it's the top card of your discard pile, play it. This doesn't work on Nomad Camp and is a little wonky, but works.
Gain the card, setting it aside. If you did, play it. Potentially confusing. Most players will wonder why it's being set aside first instead of played directly.

What about just "play that card"? As I understand it, it won't trigger any on-gain effects, but it will put the card in your play area and therefore clean it up into your discard pile at the end of the turn, which is the desired effect.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2015, 12:49:21 pm »
+1

Changeling

A sort of Golem variant. Should maybe cost $4. You steal an action from your neighbors deck and play it as your own. The card must be played, even if it's something you'd rather not (e.g., ambassador in a hand full of good cards, or mandatory trasher) and keep it. In exchange, that player gets the changeling in their deck.

Cute idea. One issue with "gain a card and then play it" is that you can intercept the card gain (with e.g. Watchtower) before playing it. This means that the card you gained gets played, but doesn't end up in play, so you can potentially play it again on your turn. I mean it's not rules-ambiguous, but it is really tough for tracking purposes. Options are:

Gain the card to your hand (and have Changeling give +1 Action). This is the simplest, but the play of the card is no longer mandatory.
Gain the card. Then, if it's the top card of your discard pile, play it. This doesn't work on Nomad Camp and is a little wonky, but works.
Gain the card, setting it aside. If you did, play it. Potentially confusing. Most players will wonder why it's being set aside first instead of played directly.

What about just "play that card"? As I understand it, it won't trigger any on-gain effects, but it will put the card in your play area and therefore clean it up into your discard pile at the end of the turn, which is the desired effect.

I don't think it's obvious or clear from the rules that if you play someone else's card, you get to keep it because it went into your play area.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2015, 05:55:30 pm »
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Quote
Quote from: tristan on Today at 11:42:23 am

    I fail to see why Cursed Idol is a powerful curser. Unless there are alternative Victory cards you start to green late in the game, quite some moves after any other Curser would have hit. And in addition to cursing very late in the game, the card is dead, a Curse and has to topdeck the purchased Victory card to actually curse.
    Just compare it with Sea Hag, the only other Curser which does nothing for you. Besides not costing an action to play Cursed Idol is stricly worse.

I agree. Also, for rules reason, "if you buy a Victory card" should probably be "if you gain" instead.
Well, I guess I also forgot to mention that in the play test it was initially a top-decked curse. And I hadn't included a mechanism for preventing the stacking of several top-decked curses. With all of that, it was super powerful. The potential for it to super curse comes from playing multiples and/or buying multiple victories that you top-deck.
So perhaps I should consider putting some of that initial oomph back into it--I nerfed it too much. I like the idea now of it carrying the -1VP, so perhaps give it some cash value again? Make your opponent discard top card of deck and then top-deck the curse? Both?

On the potential wording problem in Changeling. How about simply "play it and then put it in your discard pile." Its a simple solution to the tracking (no gaining language, so no reaction). It means it doesn't stay in play for cards that care about that, but that's fine.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2015, 08:36:27 am »
0

Update: Playtested it as a copper costing $4, when you buy a victory card you may put it on top of your deck, and each other player discards the top of their deck and puts a curse on top. Well, in mid-game I was able to successfully buy seven VP cards (mostly estates) and dispensed seven curses. That is the problem. I need wording that maxes you out at giving one curse per Cursed Idol in play maximum.
"While this is in play, if you bought any Victory cards this turn, put one on top of your deck and each other player gains a curse."
Does that work?

Also, my suggested Changeling wording has a problem with durations. Perhaps: "Play it. When you have fully resolved the action, put it in your discard." or "Put it on top of your deck. Play the top card of your deck."
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AJD

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2015, 09:07:57 am »
0

Eh, for Changeling, I still think just "play it" is the best way to go. Or maybe something like "It's yours now. Play it." Which seems a little flippant, I guess, but I think it makes it very clear what's supposed to happen, without requiring the complications of on-gain effects and potential losing track.

(Though the interaction with Inheritance is probably going to need a FAQ no matter what.)
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2015, 09:41:21 am »
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Update: Playtested it as a copper costing $4, when you buy a victory card you may put it on top of your deck, and each other player discards the top of their deck and puts a curse on top. Well, in mid-game I was able to successfully buy seven VP cards (mostly estates) and dispensed seven curses. That is the problem. I need wording that maxes you out at giving one curse per Cursed Idol in play maximum.
"While this is in play, if you bought any Victory cards this turn, put one on top of your deck and each other player gains a curse."
Does that work?
That's not a problem. Your next turn is completely gone, and the turn after that severely weakened, and you've junked up your deck as well as your opponents. The only differences is in the VP (change of 14 VP), which is almost the same as getting 2 provinces. Given that you had to ruin your next turns, and the fact that you needed buys to do this, it's really not overpowered at all.
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Accatitippi

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2015, 10:46:12 am »
0

Update: Playtested it as a copper costing $4, when you buy a victory card you may put it on top of your deck, and each other player discards the top of their deck and puts a curse on top. Well, in mid-game I was able to successfully buy seven VP cards (mostly estates) and dispensed seven curses. That is the problem. I need wording that maxes you out at giving one curse per Cursed Idol in play maximum.
"While this is in play, if you bought any Victory cards this turn, put one on top of your deck and each other player gains a curse."
Does that work?
That's not a problem. Your next turn is completely gone, and the turn after that severely weakened, and you've junked up your deck as well as your opponents. The only differences is in the VP (change of 14 VP), which is almost the same as getting 2 provinces. Given that you had to ruin your next turns, and the fact that you needed buys to do this, it's really not overpowered at all.
On the other hand, the fact that it empties two piles at the same time for much cheaper than IGG and for a bigger point difference might make it a bit wild.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2015, 02:24:48 pm »
+1

Not much cheaper than IGG when you consider that you had to buy this treasure, then later buy victory cards. IGG you can buy straight up.
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wachsmuth

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2015, 04:22:30 pm »
+1

Changeling, Regent and Shaman all seem to be absolutely insane combos with Procession. It entirely negates the downsides.
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tristan

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2015, 06:12:37 pm »
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Update: Playtested it as a copper costing $4, when you buy a victory card you may put it on top of your deck, and each other player discards the top of their deck and puts a curse on top. Well, in mid-game I was able to successfully buy seven VP cards (mostly estates) and dispensed seven curses. That is the problem. I need wording that maxes you out at giving one curse per Cursed Idol in play maximum.
"While this is in play, if you bought any Victory cards this turn, put one on top of your deck and each other player gains a curse."
Does that work?
Did you win that game? Clearly empirics triumph my mere theoretical speculation but I find it hard to imagine that setting up a deck with some Cursed Idols and some cards that provide extra buys to go crazy on Estates in order to spread Curses is a dominant strategy (and even if it was good in this particular deck, how about a deck in which there are other Cursers and no cards that provide (easy) extra buys?)
You do after all pick Followers in the middle game because you want a decksize attack that draws some cards. You distribute dead cards to everybody and the 2VP spread becomes only relevant in the endgame.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 06:13:47 pm by tristan »
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GeneralRamos

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2015, 06:20:53 pm »
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Quote
Did you win that game?
I did. Not by a huge margin, but by less than the 26-point swing of that turn. It was a mid-late game move, with a megaturn draw, plenty of buys, and two price-reduction cards in play making estates free. Sure I lost a turn, but I bought a colony, duchy, and 5 estates, and my wife job the enraging 7 curses, 1 on top and 6 in the discard.
In contrast to followers, there are two problems for Cursed Idol: (1) the ability to dump almost the whole Curse pile on your opponent at once if done right. But more importantly, (2) the great potential for differential clogging if you have (a) more than one Cursed Idol in play or (b) you have beneficial Victory-Action/Victory-Treasure cards to buy.
Certainly it is less crazy without lots of buys and/or cost reduction. But I think I really just need wording that limits it to one curse per turn given, or one curse per Cursed idol, regardless of how many Victories you buy.

Quote
Changeling, Regent and Shaman all seem to be absolutely insane combos with Procession. It entirely negates the downsides.
Well, yeah, but you don't retain the benefit of recurring use either--it won't circulate back to you. So it makes it a one-shot. I can probably live with that.
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tristan

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2015, 07:28:39 pm »
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Quote
Did you win that game?
Certainly it is less crazy without lots of buys and/or cost reduction. But I think I really just need wording that limits it to one curse per turn given, or one curse per Cursed idol, regardless of how many Victories you buy.
I disagree. Outside of such a megaturn the card seems pretty weak to me. The new version is a Curse plus a Copper in one card which curses only if you buy a dead card. No idea how that could be overpowered. In the megaturn which you had all cards shine.
But even if I am wrong and you are right, the card is more interesting if it is quite good conditional on you setting up a megaturn because then there will be a a bit of a cat and mouse concerning when to go heavy for Estates.
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GeneralRamos

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Re: The cards keep coming
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2015, 10:13:34 pm »
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Point taken. But I suppose at this point it's more about whether it's fun to play or aggravating and swingy. I'll have to consider it further. It's on the back burner for now.
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