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[Witherweaver]

Can you provide a single example of you voting for someone on your own initiative in this game?

I started the Awaclus wagon. I could list other examples, but you know, you asked for a single one, so I'm not going to do that work.

Well, rekindled.

[faust]

And my end-of-Day1 behavior, the hammer aside, was an attempt to make it look like to scum that I was going to shoot.

The irony...

I probably believe yuma, though I wish he would shoot.

[faust]

faust, was Awaclus your strongest scum read at the end of day 1 ?

Yes.

[Witherweaver]

Actually I kind of like off-wagon, which would only leave EgorK, Ampharos, Hydrad, and Teproc.  Teproc sounds town.

Why this? I mean, Egor, Ampharos and Hydrad are all a bit scummy, so the selection is not bad, but you seem to have come to this the other way around.

Because the Awaclus lynch seemed mostly town driven.  I could see myself as scum, knowing Awaclus is town, thinking it's not necessary to get on this one.  I think Teproc said this as well.

[Witherweaver]

Actually I kind of like off-wagon, which would only leave EgorK, Ampharos, Hydrad, and Teproc.  Teproc sounds town.

Why this? I mean, Egor, Ampharos and Hydrad are all a bit scummy, so the selection is not bad, but you seem to have come to this the other way around.

Because the Awaclus lynch seemed mostly town driven.  I could see myself as scum, knowing Awaclus is town, thinking it's not necessary to get on this one.  I think Teproc said this as well.

And, yes, this was my thought before looking to see who was on and off wagon.

[EgorK]

If the lynch seems town-driven why not jump on it to get town credit and ensure it going through as scum? Win/win

[Witherweaver]

If the lynch seems town-driven why not jump on it to get town credit and ensure it going through as scum? Win/win

Well, you still know it's a mislynch and know it will be analyzed.

[EgorK]

If the lynch seems town-driven why not jump on it to get town credit and ensure it going through as scum? Win/win

Well, you still know it's a mislynch and know it will be analyzed.

And if it is town driven you'd got town points for it. Exactly what you need

[iguanaiguana]

But that's exactly what's happen. Someone do some tiny weird scummy thing - they got lynched over it. Someone do something really scummy for a day - nah, scum never do this.

Also OMGUS

Also do not see anything easy in this (not mis)lynch. I anticipate uphill battle because see above

But, I as scum. Couldn't have anticipated that. I would have to do that to feel confident to take said risk. And that is putting the entire onus on someone else to take that responsibility for me, and that just isn't how scum thinks or operates in general and is absolutely not how I operate as scum.

Except that now you are defending yourself. So as scum you could very well have anticipated this negative backlash and decided in advance that you would be able to handle it yourself, using these very arguments. Its either town!Yuma or scum!Yuma defending himself and NOT relying on anyone else to do it for him. And you are doing a damn fine job of it as usual. So I'm pretty sure all you can really say is "Yuma is hard to lynch." This is all independent of alignment.

[Witherweaver]

If the lynch seems town-driven why not jump on it to get town credit and ensure it going through as scum? Win/win

Well, you still know it's a mislynch and know it will be analyzed.

And if it is town driven you'd got town points for it. Exactly what you need

But not so easy to predict that others will feel this way.

[iguanaiguana]

Can you provide a single example of you voting for someone on your own initiative in this game?

I started the Awaclus wagon. I could list other examples, but you know, you asked for a single one, so I'm not going to do that work.

Well, rekindled.

This. Exactly. You got on a lynch that many people had already expressed they wanted to vote for. I hardly think that constitutes  starting the wagon.

[iguanaiguana]

The main thing that makes me think Faust is town is his outburst against Iguanaiguana on early D1. As scum, he should've and probably woulf've continued leading the town (to destruction, like he does when he is scum).

I'm thinking about Vote: Iguanaiguana , but I'm not sure if that's the right move.
PPE

Because if Faust is town, and we disagree, therefore I am scum?

[faust]

Can you provide a single example of you voting for someone on your own initiative in this game?

I started the Awaclus wagon. I could list other examples, but you know, you asked for a single one, so I'm not going to do that work.

Well, rekindled.

This. Exactly. You got on a lynch that many people had already expressed they wanted to vote for. I hardly think that constitutes  starting the wagon.

Well, I think placing the first vote constitutes starting a wagon. I'm all excited to hear your definition though.

On whose initiative do you suggest I placed that Awaclus vote if not on my own, I wonder?

[yuma]

But that's exactly what's happen. Someone do some tiny weird scummy thing - they got lynched over it. Someone do something really scummy for a day - nah, scum never do this.

Also OMGUS

Also do not see anything easy in this (not mis)lynch. I anticipate uphill battle because see above

But, I as scum. Couldn't have anticipated that. I would have to do that to feel confident to take said risk. And that is putting the entire onus on someone else to take that responsibility for me, and that just isn't how scum thinks or operates in general and is absolutely not how I operate as scum.

Except that now you are defending yourself. So as scum you could very well have anticipated this negative backlash and decided in advance that you would be able to handle it yourself, using these very arguments. Its either town!Yuma or scum!Yuma defending himself and NOT relying on anyone else to do it for him. And you are doing a damn fine job of it as usual. So I'm pretty sure all you can really say is "Yuma is hard to lynch." This is all independent of alignment.

Sure, of course I am going to defend myself. That IS something that I could count on in this hypothetical universe that EgorK is presenting. But scum needs more than that. Scum can't handle arguments all by themselves if there is a lynch wagon on them they need other people to come to their defense. That is essential.

I am hard to lynch as either alignment. But I am easier to lynch as scum. I have been lynched as scum probably 10 times in all the games I have played. I have been mislynched once as town, in M11. But that is an aside. The main point is above... and it is that mafia shouldn't (and doesn't) do crazy/ridiculous things that relies on another subset of people to interpret said action in a townie way and defend them. Because my saying "scum would never do that" alone doesn't suffice and I am not going to put the game on relying on someone else to say it for me. I would just not do the said crazy/ridiculous thing to begin with... It isn't like I was forced into claiming here... and obviously no one forced me to mistakenly hammer (or forced me to appear to mistakenly hammer). According to EgorK those were choices I made, but the narrative for why I made them and the narrative that I would rely on "scum would never do that" is faulty.

[yuma]

If the lynch seems town-driven why not jump on it to get town credit and ensure it going through as scum? Win/win

Well, you still know it's a mislynch and know it will be analyzed.

And if it is town driven you'd got town points for it. Exactly what you need

But not so easy to predict that others will feel this way.

This.

[Roadrunner7671]

The main thing that makes me think Faust is town is his outburst against Iguanaiguana on early D1. As scum, he should've and probably woulf've continued leading the town (to destruction, like he does when he is scum).

I'm thinking about Vote: Iguanaiguana , but I'm not sure if that's the right move.
PPE

Because if Faust is town, and we disagree, therefore I am scum?

That's why I'm not sure if it's the right move. But pressure isn't a huge problem.

[iguanaiguana]

Can you provide a single example of you voting for someone on your own initiative in this game?

I started the Awaclus wagon. I could list other examples, but you know, you asked for a single one, so I'm not going to do that work.

Well, rekindled.

This. Exactly. You got on a lynch that many people had already expressed they wanted to vote for. I hardly think that constitutes  starting the wagon.

Well, I think placing the first vote constitutes starting a wagon. I'm all excited to hear your definition though.

On whose initiative do you suggest I placed that Awaclus vote if not on my own, I wonder?

Alright, to be fair, I had actually misremembered the voting for Awaclus as starting with Witherweaver, then you and now I see that it was the other way around.

At any rate, I am more than used to my arguments getting picked into little pieces when my arguments are against you. I still believe that my general read on you RE: yesterday is correct. The fact that you can point out a single instance to the contrary doesn't mean much.

[iguanaiguana]

But that's exactly what's happen. Someone do some tiny weird scummy thing - they got lynched over it. Someone do something really scummy for a day - nah, scum never do this.

Also OMGUS

Also do not see anything easy in this (not mis)lynch. I anticipate uphill battle because see above

But, I as scum. Couldn't have anticipated that. I would have to do that to feel confident to take said risk. And that is putting the entire onus on someone else to take that responsibility for me, and that just isn't how scum thinks or operates in general and is absolutely not how I operate as scum.

Except that now you are defending yourself. So as scum you could very well have anticipated this negative backlash and decided in advance that you would be able to handle it yourself, using these very arguments. Its either town!Yuma or scum!Yuma defending himself and NOT relying on anyone else to do it for him. And you are doing a damn fine job of it as usual. So I'm pretty sure all you can really say is "Yuma is hard to lynch." This is all independent of alignment.

Sure, of course I am going to defend myself. That IS something that I could count on in this hypothetical universe that EgorK is presenting. But scum needs more than that. Scum can't handle arguments all by themselves if there is a lynch wagon on them they need other people to come to their defense. That is essential.

I am hard to lynch as either alignment. But I am easier to lynch as scum. I have been lynched as scum probably 10 times in all the games I have played. I have been mislynched once as town, in M11. But that is an aside. The main point is above... and it is that mafia shouldn't (and doesn't) do crazy/ridiculous things that relies on another subset of people to interpret said action in a townie way and defend them. Because my saying "scum would never do that" alone doesn't suffice and I am not going to put the game on relying on someone else to say it for me. I would just not do the said crazy/ridiculous thing to begin with... It isn't like I was forced into claiming here... and obviously no one forced me to mistakenly hammer (or forced me to appear to mistakenly hammer). According to EgorK those were choices I made, but the narrative for why I made them and the narrative that I would rely on "scum would never do that" is faulty.

OK, but why am I supposed to be giving you a pass because you did something so scummy that it looks like dangerous play from scum's point of view?

If you do something strange, people are going to scrutinize it; that is how the game progresses. If there is a legitimate town narrative, your best hope is that other people find it. But your best hope as scum is that you can make it look like there is a town narrative for what you did. I'm not saying that you MUST BE SCUM because of everything you did at the end of D1. But I don't think it makes you look more towny! Right now, the main thing that still makes you look like town is your claim, which looked very authentic, at the beginning of day one. What makes you look scummy is very erratic behavior after that.

Yes, you rely on people to interpret those things and determine your alignment, so that you don't get lynched. But you rely on other people either way. The fact that you rely on people isn't an alignment tell, it's just a fact of the game.

[yuma]

Ok. Then say what I did was scummy and show it and I will refute it. But I won't have a problem with it. But don't use the "he thought people would never think he would do this as scum" as a reason to vote. That isn't evidence. That is conjecture.

I am not saying people shouldn't analyze or be suspicious of anything I or others have done. That, as you say, is mafia.

[iguanaiguana]

Ok. Then say what I did was scummy and show it and I will refute it. But I won't have a problem with it. But don't use the "he thought people would never think he would do this as scum" as a reason to vote. That isn't evidence. That is conjecture.

I am not saying people shouldn't analyze or be suspicious of anything I or others have done. That, as you say, is mafia.

Fair enough. I think our argument was mostly a misunderstanding as to what the other was saying. I do not suspect you the way Egor does, but I also don't think you are Obv!town now like I did before your erratic behavior. That is all I meant to say.

What are your thoughts on Day 1?

[yuma]

Ok. Then say what I did was scummy and show it and I will refute it. But I won't have a problem with it. But don't use the "he thought people would never think he would do this as scum" as a reason to vote. That isn't evidence. That is conjecture.

I am not saying people shouldn't analyze or be suspicious of anything I or others have done. That, as you say, is mafia.

Fair enough. I think our argument was mostly a misunderstanding as to what the other was saying. I do not suspect you the way Egor does, but I also don't think you are Obv!town now like I did before your erratic behavior. That is all I meant to say.

What are your thoughts on Day 1?

I don't know. Egork is still suspect. Someone brought up that we had two wagons get to L-1, three if you include me at L-2, yesterday so I would like to look at some wagons that might have started but got distracted by those bigger ones...

So I think egork fits that bill and a few others....

[Haddock]

I'd prefer not to lynch Hydrad today.

On reread, me neither.

I'm reading faust now.

[Haddock]

OK so I'm not going to a post-by-post on faust, but general impressions.

He is definitely more defensive than usual.  Then again I don't think I've ever seen him be pushed in any of the games I've been in or read; he usually survives a couple of days without a huge amount of town attention and then gets NK'd.

He is possibly slightly less proactive than usual.  This is more subjective than the thing above, but I think I feel it. 

In a couple of his recent posts he's been acting like I've been defending him, which I haven't really.  This could maybe maybe be painted as scumbuddying.  But hardly.

That's really it.  In every other sense he is pretty normal. 

I intend to look at voting patterns on Awa tomorrow, and I'll pay attention there to how faust's vote fits in.  But the above things are not enough for me to want to lynch faust.  If people want to present a better case I'll consider it.

Actually I kind of like off-wagon, which would only leave EgorK, Ampharos, Hydrad, and Teproc.  Teproc sounds town.

Of these, Egor is the only one that seems scummy straight away, to me. 

And, yes, this was my thought before looking to see who was on and off wagon.

This grabbed me earlier as I was skimming.  You're seriously claiming that you picked Egor, Amph, Hydrad and Teproc as lynchable before looking at the wagons?  Seems... unlikely.  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

[Witherweaver]

And, yes, this was my thought before looking to see who was on and off wagon.

This grabbed me earlier as I was skimming.  You're seriously claiming that you picked Egor, Amph, Hydrad and Teproc as lynchable before looking at the wagons?  Seems... unlikely.  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

No, I mean, I thought: off-wagon is good.  Who is off-wagon (went back and looked); it's these people.

[iguanaiguana]

Ok. Then say what I did was scummy and show it and I will refute it. But I won't have a problem with it. But don't use the "he thought people would never think he would do this as scum" as a reason to vote. That isn't evidence. That is conjecture.

I am not saying people shouldn't analyze or be suspicious of anything I or others have done. That, as you say, is mafia.

Fair enough. I think our argument was mostly a misunderstanding as to what the other was saying. I do not suspect you the way Egor does, but I also don't think you are Obv!town now like I did before your erratic behavior. That is all I meant to say.

What are your thoughts on Day 1?

I don't know. Egork is still suspect. Someone brought up that we had two wagons get to L-1, three if you include me at L-2, yesterday so I would like to look at some wagons that might have started but got distracted by those bigger ones...

So I think egork fits that bill and a few others....

I agree. I also think that coming right out and voting you could have been a move that scum would make (at least, if you are town). I'm not sure, though. Suspecting you above everyone else could come from town, too. I mean look at Awaclus. Then there's the fact that I tried to get a lynch on Egor for most of the day yesterday and it never got any traction; that's always suspicious.

Do you have thoughts on Faust? He also got away with very little scrutiny yesterday.

Still wondering if Awaclus can talk. From my understanding of treestumps, he can, but he doesn't have to, and he doesn't get a vote. 

I imagine if he can talk, he'll probably say something like, "you guys need to lynch Yuma."