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[Witherweaver]

Oh, that was already quoted in the one before it.  Oh well post count padding.

[Witherweaver]

So response to Faust claiming to have a result:

My initial thought is to believe faust's claim.  However, he is a sly sly man.  He could be gambiting here, afraid he is caught.  I legitimately am not sure how to read this situation.  I'll think on it a bit, and get back to you with my claim order vote.

Proposes lynching me:

I guess it's no use stretching this out. I have a result on WW that incriminates him. I think the best course of action would be for him to full claim, and then I state in detail what I know, but given people's reads on me, I don't know if you want to go through with a plan I proposed.

Nope.  You're claiming first.

I suppose town will have to decide. I'm not sure either way yet, I'll get back to you.

Well, uh, WW seems pretty clear-cut about this. I'm not sure he will listen to majority opinion.

Well, if we get a majority that wants him to claim first, and he doesn't, we can lynch, and gain a ton of info from it.  A LOT.

Still not sure how I want to vote though.

PPE Teproc types fast.

Swings back:

I'm pretty sure I want faust to claim first, if we're still voting on that.  I might change my mind though.

Oh, and lock me in for voting that faust should go first.  I've read enough on this topic.

Response when Faust full claims and I claim:

50 bucks there's no redirection in this game.  Knowing what I know about the roles, there probably along the lines of 5-8 VTs, and to me it is a long shot that with this type of set up, scum was given a re-director.  Course, I've never played an Ash game before, so there could be a lot more than I'm expecting. 

Something is off here.

WW's claim reads scummier than Faust's.  It's just too darn convenient for a role as scum.  I believe I was reading faust as playing differently, which he was, if he has this role.  There is a very simple explanation for all this: WW is scum, and killed ss last night.  He breadcrumbed early to protect himself from exactly this type of scenario.

Vote: WW

Basically tunnels me for the rest of forever.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, I ended up giving Amp a bunch of towncred for his tunnel of me, and I think I still feel that way.  Look.

Faust claims a result on me fairly early into Day 2.  If my lynch goes through, Faust is obviously going to be in some trouble.  Does Amp 100% join in and relentlessly push the mislynch?  It's a lot of blood on the scum team's hands.

Amph as more gung-ho against me than Faust was.  Maybe Faust saw this and cooled off/hedged against me a bit to not align with partner!Amph so much?

[Witherweaver]

More talking with (potential partner) Iguana:

Y'all get so worked up about meaningless stuff. 

Just lynch WW and get this day over with.

So you've given up on scumhunting this game?

umad? 

No, but it's a bit surprising from someone that was apparently so intent on figuring things out this game that they were making spreadsheets.

I've pretty clearly stated multiple times that I'm tired of what I perceive to be meaningless discussion on minute points of personal playstyle.  I've found my scum and am going full pit bull mode.  "As for advice, get money twice" (okay that wasn't relevant but it's the first Pit Bull quote I could think of)

Ok, this is ridiculous. You suspected Faust the entire game. He and WW both make conflicting claims and now you're positive that it's..... WW who is scum? I know, I know. You gave 'reasons.' But I have a question for you

HOW? HOW ARE YOU SO SURE?

I was never sure faust was scum.  I thought something was up with him.  Something was.  I thought for a while about what he said, and when you simply think about what is the most likely scenario, it is that faust is telling the truth and that he caught WW red-handed.  WW as scum had created a very weak breadcrumb which he could fall back on in any scenario where he was suspected.  The most simple explanation here is that I found what I was looking for from faust, and now believe I found what I'm REALLY looking for here in WW.

If it makes you happy, I'm never 100% sure about anything.  I just play like it, cause why not?  At least I'm not wishywashy and you know clearly where I stand.

So.  Lynch WW. 

PPE: forgot to mention that yes, redirection is unlikely.

If it's Iguana/Amph/Faust, it's, like, the entire game was choreographed.  It just doesn't seem that likely. 

[Witherweaver]

Well, on the other hand, Iguana's response there feels constructed. 

[Witherweaver]

...

See, this is the kind of thing that is so bad, it simply cannot come from scum.

I still feel this way, but mitigated a bit.  Well, that mitigation is likely because Amph is much more likely to be scum now than he was back on Day 2. 

[Witherweaver]

Fhew okay I'm tired cause getting all worked up about the WW thing, deciding to drop it for now, and then wracking my brains for who could possibly be scum here. 

Do more of your talking about all sorts of stuff;  I'll read it all and be back later.

Reads townie.

[Witherweaver]

Interesting.  Wagons here are Teproc and Haddock, but they're all kind of spread out, like they were Day 1. 

So Hydrad is just a mix of null and scummy throughout the entire game. There are a lot of unexplained votes, a lot of "let's kill this person for information" posts, and a really heavy use of the word interesting as a sole commentary on things happening.

I think the only reason I wasn't voting for him before is WW's claim.

Vote: Hydrad

Right, Hydrad is better than Haddock.

Vote: Hydrad

Hydrad had no votes before this I think.  Do both partners try to wagon their partner here?  They might be actively trying to muck up the wagon analysis. 

[Witherweaver]

Of interest:

To be clear, if I thought WW's claim was correct, I would not go for Hydrad, because that assumes two things: A) Hydrad did not perform the kill. B) Hydrad does not have redirecting abilities or any other targetting PR.

[Witherweaver]

Amph Day 1+2 is like 93% more Townie than Hydrad's. 

Day 3

Sorry, all caught up.  Been busy with the holidays and such. 

I'll admit that iguana is not as solid of town as I previously believed him to be.  But I don't think that's where we look today.  I still like the VT lynch.  EgorK didn't go through on our first try, but I'm not sure if that's because he is or isn't scum.  I did really think he was town earlier and am not sure if I'm ready to toss that in the trash just yet. 

All that said, we've got some time, and as I'm not sure who to lynch yet, I'm going to hold off voting right now.  I'll do a full think-through when I have a little more time.

Iguana treatment is starting to sound a bit suspicious. 

I can't help but feel like the EgorK lynch is too easy.  It smells too much like a scum pushed mis-lynch.

I'd say this was scummy, but I felt exactly the same way at the time.

This game is basically lynch correctly or lose.

I'm willing to stand on my initial gut feeling. 

Plus, the cop power selections make no sense.

Vote: Teproc

Hm..  he's forgotten all about scum!me and scum!Faust?

So on Day 5:

Hi all, just caught up.  Iguana is the correct lynch.  He's obviously trying to save himself here by casting a shadow of a doubt on what is a pretty obvious situation:  I'm town, have been read strongly town all game by most people, I was seen as town by cop, and had a legit scum read on faust which I pursued heavily, which he managed to weasel out of for a while. 

Plus, last rmm game I was in, town!iguana really went ham at this point in the game, doing everything he could to save town's chances.  He's scum here, this one should be easy.  I'll hold for a second before voting just to make sure we want to do this.

So who is alive... e, Amph, me, Iguana, Hydrad.  I obviously look good after lynching Faust.  e has an innocent result on him, and I was probably the only town that would be swayed to vote him.  scum!Amph choice is between Hydrad and Iguana.  scum!Amph chooses to bus Iguana instead of make a case (or even hedge) against Hydrad.  Town points there I'd say.

[Witherweaver]

God this game is long.

Next is to look over Iguana and see if he betrays anything.

Hydrad, you ever going to, like, post?  Or you giving up at this point?

[Witherweaver]

Reads list:

Wow, lots happened. Including some reads lists. Now the game feels like it is really moving.

Time to post my own reads list I think.

Towny:

Yuma

The claim means a lot. The posts pushing the game further help more. Some people are leaning slight town on Yuma; to me Yuma is the only obv!town player here. Like, I would be really surprised if he was fakeclaiming his role, and scum with a random vig doesn't make any sense at all.

Roadrunner

Who was it who pointed out that scum Roadrunner would have very little incentive to post a long rant/essay during the middle of an otherwise quiet period of the game, when no one was paying attention to him otherwise? It's a good point; for now at least I think I agree. Roadrunner has been very fond of writing long rants lately. The question is whether they are scum rants or town rants. This one looks very towny to me.

Ampharos

Basically, I got exactly what I was hoping I would get from Ampharos, which is a meaningful contribution to the game. His first few posts looked scummy to me, but now it looks more like he was drawing attention to himself because he knew he could show himself to be towny under scrutiny. At the same time, Ampharos seems like kind of a loose cannon. And that makes him harder to trust.

Teproc

Hmmm, so Teproc thinks I look like scum. He says I look very towny in my other game, but what I remember from that game was people calling me mildly scummy or scummy the whole way through. But despite his gunning for me, Teproc looks a lot like town to me here. He's reading the game carefully & paying attention to details. Also, except for his read on me, I think I mainly agree with his reads. 

e: He hasn't said much, but what he's said so far has been helpful. I'm not convinced either way, but I have a slight town read on him for now.

Null or Torn:


Haddock: Like a lot of people, I'm having trouble reading Haddock. I want to say that most of his posts seem helpful, and that puts him on the slightly townier side of null for me.

Awaclus & Hydrad: I haven't seen enough from either player to have an opinion one way or another. Would like to see more attention paid to both.

silverspawn: silverspawn called our argument productive. It did not feel productive to me. I did not get strong town reads on him; more I just felt confused like I didn't know how to read him well. I haven't seen a lot of strong pro-town posts from him since then, but he has been really active and I'm not sure if scum wants to risk all of that activity. I really don't know what to think. I guess that leaves me on the slightly scummy side of null.

Faust: Faust's change in playstyle this game is still unnerving to me, but his response to me when I questioned it seemed authentic. Sometimes it seems like he's being helpful, sometimes it just looks like he's being venomous for no reason. So yeah, I'm torn. Overall I'm not really digging this new Faust who criticizes everything I say.

Scummy:


Witherweaver: I remember in the last game feeling like Witherweaver was posting a lot of short fluffy stuff and not being very helpful. Then, somehow, he survived the entire game and won as scum. He's acting the same way in this game, so that makes me not trust him very much so far. He's close enough to null that I could still be convinced he's town, but still looking scummier than most other people.

EgorK: Yuma is (IMO) the towniest player here, and his case on EgorK makes sense to me. Plus, a lot of Egor's reads just seem bad. He's also going after some pretty easy targets (RR, Hydrad) and that makes him look worse. So I guess for now Egor is my top scum read.

Ah I brought this up before.  Clumping Hydrad and Awaclus together in the same set, especially with Awaclus not doing much, points more to Hydrad.  I did the same thing my first scum game regarding Archetype when it was me/Archetype/Ashersky.

However, the blurb about Amph doesn't make me feel great:

"Basically, I got exactly what I was hoping I would get from Ampharos, which is a meaningful contribution to the game. His first few posts looked scummy to me, but now it looks more like he was drawing attention to himself because he knew he could show himself to be towny under scrutiny. At the same time, Ampharos seems like kind of a loose cannon. And that makes him harder to trust. "

Sounds forced, which could be because Iguana needs to construct a read on town!Amph or partner!Amph.

[Witherweaver]

calling a Hydrad - yuma - iguanda team

calling a Hydrad - yuma - iguanda team

Um, okay, you do that!

Ha!

[Witherweaver]

And WW is a blank page as always. His playstyle is way more anti-town than that of Awaclus.

Thanks!

[Hydrad]

I'm reading through your reread. Its amazing.

[Witherweaver]

see, this is one of the reasons why you are scummy, although not the most important one.

You think reads lists are towny. So you make a reads list, and now you expect to be towny because of it.

It does not work that way. towniness is not some progressive point gathering, it's a judgement of your alignment. Every scum can sit down and write a reads list. It depends on the content.

That's bad for you both because you have being towny in the forefront of your mind, and because you gave Amph unjustified town points.

Is it Iguana being scummy or actually thinking that?  Just because he says something that could be scummy does not mean it is.  Most everything in this game is WIFOM and up to personal opinion.

I'd bet my non-existent hat you both are town.

eh... what, exactly, is the point of this post?

the concept of non-meta arguments means assuming that X is a scum tell for A because X is a scum tell for most people. Clearly, non-meta arguments can therefore always be wrong, if X is in fact not a scum tell for A. This is a general rule and has nothing to do with my post. Do you suggest that we should stop using any non-meta arguments? If not, then what are you trying to say?

I'm saying I think you both are town and that I hope soon you will start working together instead of presenting a division for scum to exploit.  I also acknowledge that I could be totally wrong.

So about this... I don't know. Silver right now falls into the second category of people I mentioned before: He's active and has reads but they disagree with mine so much I don't know what to make of them. I mean, if he is serious about me being on a scum team with Yuma then I am just flabbergasted. That sounds so incredibly unlikely...

As for Hydrad, IDK I guess I can see why someone might think that if they already think Hydrad and I look scummy. FWIW I'm not convinced at all Hydrad is town, but I have seen a few Hydrad games lately where he looked pretty scummy and then was able to come in, help town, and clear himself. I at least want to give him a chance to talk.

So reasonable people can disagree reasonably. I'm just not convinced on Silver either way yet.

Very hedgey here. 

[Witherweaver]

I'm reading through your reread. Its amazing.

Oh okay then

\vote Ampharos

[Hydrad]

I'm reading through your reread. Its amazing.

Oh okay then

\vote Ampharos

Ya this doesn't look like you can be scum. wp if you are though.

Vote: amp

[Witherweaver]

Confirming not scum.

[Hydrad]

yayyy

well at least I know I got it right so thats a partial win. But now I have to do the actual hard part and convince you that I'm town.

[Witherweaver]

God if I were scum here I'd be awesome at this game.

[Witherweaver]

Fun fact: scum awlays votes first on 1v2 LyLo.

[Hydrad]

Fun fact: scum awlays votes first on 1v2 LyLo.

uh. well not anymore. sorry to ruin your stat

[Hydrad]

hmm so whats things that I can say that make me towny.

I guess one thing is why wouldn't I be making the kills if I was with faust and iguana. they both had PRs so would they really say that I couldn't make the kills and not use their power instead? That really makes no sense at all in my mind. I guess I could be making the kills but be a permanent ninja? Is that a role even? All ninjas I've seen have been like 1 shot or something.

[Witherweaver]

You could be just a Ninja, that's not that unlikely.  You could have used your shot when I targeted you one of the times, or bus driving.

This argument works worse for you since I got no motion from Amp last night.