Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[silverspawn]

That being said, I also think silverspawn should have just gone with the name you gave him.  I'm skeptical that his fake claim would have gotten him into any trouble at all.  I mean I think it's just as likely for people to make the argument "Eevee is lying because his flavor name doesn't start with 'tree'" as "silverspawn is lying because his name starts with 'tree'".

The problem is this: firefighter and arsonists are people who hide inside tree husks. This has been clear from the setup, and igu also posted this picture.

I think there's a pretty good (maybe around 1/3) chance that no-one would have asked for the flavor thing, in which case I'm fine, but if someone does, I'm rip.

[silverspawn]

and I still don't understand why you didn't just contact another mod for advise. Where's the problem with that?

[Awaclus]

The problem is this: firefighter and arsonists are people who hide inside tree husks. This has been clear from the setup, and igu also posted this picture.

I think there's a pretty good (maybe around 1/3) chance that no-one would have asked for the flavor thing, in which case I'm fine, but if someone does, I'm rip.

Well, treehugger can conceivably be a person and not a tree.

[silverspawn]

The problem is this: firefighter and arsonists are people who hide inside tree husks. This has been clear from the setup, and igu also posted this picture.

I think there's a pretty good (maybe around 1/3) chance that no-one would have asked for the flavor thing, in which case I'm fine, but if someone does, I'm rip.

Well, treehugger can conceivably be a person and not a tree.

that's what igu said, too. And yeah, he could, in a vacuum. But look at the flavor names in this game:

Treeboi
Treebeer
Treebob
Treehugged
Treemail
Treevee
Treeofakind

and now I say I'm called Treehugged, and Eevee says he's called something to the effect of Larry Larson. Do those names really sound equally likely?

[silverspawn]

^ I'm called *treehugger

I kept switching them up ever since I got them

[yuma]

Ultimately the problem is this:

A PR shouldn't be given a "special" flavor name. If flavor is to be used it should be fully randomized, unless the setup has been specifically designed to use flavor as a mechanism. As this setup wasn't specifically designed to have flavor--in fact as a mafiascum setup it is specifically prohibited from having flavor--any flavor used should have been random. It wasn't and that is what is causing the problem as any fake favor claim is going to be inferior to any true favor claim anyway you spin it.

This isn't the first time this has happened and it won't be the last. I don't want to be a buzzkill when it comes to flavor, but I do thing mods should think long and hard about using flavor. I know others really like it--and I have enjoyed it at times as well--but that is when it has either been fully random or specifically designed within the setup. There aren't currently great guidelines for this for mods to reference. I think maybe there should be.

[yuma]

As for making changes during the game state:

I see iguana's point of view. I for one am loathe to make changes during the game from the rules that have already been established. Even if that gives one side an unintended advantage. I think that is better than to change the game midway through as I think that is more prone to potential favoritism issues.

I think the initial complaint is justified, the mod response justified and the end of game discussion here is justified.

[iguanaiguana]

The only additional information I will add is flavor.

It was evident from the very beginning of the game that I was planning to add flavor to this setup. If any person had an issue with that, they could have inquired into it before the game began, or simply not joined the game in the first place.

[yuma]

The only additional information I will add is flavor.

It was evident from the very beginning of the game that I was planning to add flavor to this setup. If any person had an issue with that, they could have inquired into it before the game began, or simply not joined the game in the first place.

Right. But the wording of that is vague. Does that mean randomized flavor? Does that mean flavor that has meaning? Are there safe claims for flavor? None of that was stated. And yes, the players signing up could have/should have queried you about what that wording meant and requested more information before the game started. But you know... most players don't.

I should have and take ownership for that, but didn't because I glossed over the setup information like most players. It is easy to suggest improvements after the fact, which is what I am doing. But that doesn't lessen the credibility of such improvements. I don't think meaningful flavor should have been added to this game because it wasn't designed to be played that way. As such this wasn't a standard setup. It was a tweaked setup. In my opinion, in an ideal world that would have been more explicitly made clear to allow it to be more fully vetted.

[scott_pilgrim]

A PR shouldn't be given a "special" flavor name. If flavor is to be used it should be fully randomized, unless the setup has been specifically designed to use flavor as a mechanism. As this setup wasn't specifically designed to have flavor--in fact as a mafiascum setup it is specifically prohibited from having flavor--any flavor used should have been random. It wasn't and that is what is causing the problem as any fake favor claim is going to be inferior to any true favor claim anyway you spin it.

This works in general.  For open set-ups an even more straightforward solution is to just post all flavor names in the OP before the game starts.  Then claiming [Role X] is equivalent to claiming [Role X flavor name].

[iguanaiguana]

I actually just didn't get that. I thought that my name was Treehugged, when you said it's treehugger, I thought that I had remembered it wrong and it was treehugger all along. I didn't think you were making it a new name.

I don't think that this changes that much, but yeah, that has been a misunderstanding.

But I did everything possible to clarify this misunderstanding! I even sent you a link to the dictionary definition of a treehugger. Alright, these are my messages:

Other players' flavor names are not public information. The only information added to the firefighter's role PM is the flavor.

There are 9 distinct tree names. Every player has a different tree name. The only difference is that the firefighter and the arsons have actual names; you are just hiding inside of a tree during the day.

When I started this, I did not anticipate that flavor would give anyone any kind of edge. The only reason that anyone has a name is because I thought it would be funny to give the trees names. If I do another open setup, I won't give people names because of the backlash I've gotten from doing it this time.

This is my first game modding; it is experimental. Some things, once done, cannot be undone and not everything in life can be done with perfect fairness, especially on a first attempt. That being said, I don't think you are at any kind of disadvantage by not knowing the firefighter's flavor because the only person who knows it is the firefighter.

Alright, I thought about this some more.

Your fake tree name is Treehugged. If you want to claim firefighter, you can safely claim "Treehugger the firefighter" and feel free to mention the relation to your tree name.

This is not the name that the actual firefighter has and is not related to it in any way. However, it is the best I can do. Telling you the firefighter's flavor name would be giving arsonists an unfair advantage, as it would give you the opportunity to use their name before they get a chance to use it themselves. This solution doesn't perfectly balance everything, but it is the closest I can come.

In order to honor the spirit in which I made this game, please do not try to make the game about whose flavor is more authentic. It was not my intention that this game would ever be about that.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Read the name I gave you again.

It is not 'TreehuggeD.'

It is 'TreehuggeR.'

TreehuggeD implies a tree being huggeD by a treehuggeR. TreehuggeR is a person who hugs trees. IE: someone who loves trees and wants to save them. IE: a believable fakeclaim for a firefighter in this game.

I will not respond to further messages on this topic.

http://beta.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tree%20hugger

A treehugger is a person, not a tree, and is a very good fakeclaim. In fact, it is the best and most convincing fake claim that I could think of. All you need to say is "My tree name is Treehugged, but I am actually the firefighter and my real name is Treehugger."

If you don't like it, make up your own! All I did when I made up your name, your partner's name, and the firefighter's name is make up a silly name. Anyone can do that! We have been arguing about absolutely nothing.

What I took as rude was at first your insistence that I do something for you to change the game state to make it better for your faction, in the middle of the game, even though you did not bring up at the beginning of the game when I could have done something about it. Then, your continuing disapproval of every measure that I took to satisfy your complaint, despite the fact that I was doing everything in my power to provide a solution that fit the criterion of one of the solution's you requested, and to explain to you why the solution worked.

[Witherweaver]

I've been in this kind of situation before.  Sometimes you just don't have that info as scum, so you have to work around it. 

[iguanaiguana]

The only additional information I will add is flavor.

It was evident from the very beginning of the game that I was planning to add flavor to this setup. If any person had an issue with that, they could have inquired into it before the game began, or simply not joined the game in the first place.

Right. But the wording of that is vague. Does that mean randomized flavor? Does that mean flavor that has meaning? Are there safe claims for flavor? None of that was stated. And yes, the players signing up could have/should have queried you about what that wording meant and requested more information before the game started. But you know... most players don't.

I should have and take ownership for that, but didn't because I glossed over the setup information like most players. It is easy to suggest improvements after the fact, which is what I am doing. But that doesn't lessen the credibility of such improvements. I don't think meaningful flavor should have been added to this game because it wasn't designed to be played that way. As such this wasn't a standard setup. It was a tweaked setup. In my opinion, in an ideal world that would have been more explicitly made clear to allow it to be more fully vetted.

This is all well and good and I agree with everything you are saying. I think it should be quite obvious by now that I am never going to do anything remotely like this ever again, and yes, I discourage others from taking such a path.

[Witherweaver]

I think your solution as proposed seemed fine, actually. 

[gkrieg13]

I agree with ww. Ss, I think you came off as rude with your tone. Telling someone they only have three options when they are being polite to you and you are ultimately not the one in charge is demeaning. It was clear iguana was trying to figure out the best way to balance things, and that it is his first time.

[silverspawn]

I agree with ww. Ss, I think you came off as rude with your tone. Telling someone they only have three options when they are being polite to you and you are ultimately not the one in charge is demeaning. It was clear iguana was trying to figure out the best way to balance things, and that it is his first time.

noted

[Roadrunner7671]

I think Iguana was a fine moderator.

[Teproc]

Hi, I was wrong about evertyhing in the speccy, which doesn't really count but stlll. COngrats to yuma and especially silver, had me fooled.