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[Haddock]

Egor, do you have any intention of reacting to my explanation of why I believed you so easily? I realised last irl night that there was another reason why I believed you as well, that I took into account without thinking about it.  Namely all your fuss about being blocked.  The complaints about being blocked and how my being alive made me superscummy (which made no sense at first) suddenly made sense when Hydrad appeared and then you claimed vig. There's just no way scum could have predicted the Hydrad redirection. Unless Hydrad is scum as well, I guess.

I guess Hydrad COULD be scum claiming a town redirection power that he actually has as a scum role. I hadn't thought of that.

[ashersky]

So, about the plan.

In lieu of revealing everything right now, allow me to provide you with a list.

1. Town powers that are contingent upon target alignment are strengthened.
2. Scum powers (including kills) that are contingent upon target alignment are more often successful.
3. Components that may include alignment restrictions are strengthened.
4. Alignment cops can catch liars.
5. Scum are forced to commit to a lie early.
6. A rough idea of alignment balance numbers becomes available.
7. The town can keep equitable, or otherwise preferred, numbers of each faction alive.
8. PPS not withstanding, the town can alternate, or otherwise control, hammering factions.
9. The giving of components can be better coordinated.
10. Enter your text here.

If you haven't figured it out by now, these are pros and cons of a mass alignment claim.  My plan took into account a number of these, combined it with my own thinking and desire to have a joint town win, and presented itself to my brain.

Look, Archetype and I are two of the longest tenured players and mods left on f.ds.  I think yuma is the only player that pre-dates us, actually.  We have been scum together multiple times, we've co-modded together multiple times.  I believe I've co-modded or played in every single one of his games.  And I think I can see some of what he was designing here.

Obviously XP throws a wrench into this, as he has one of those Nash-style crazyminds.  So, it's a bit of modwifom, but for me personally, it's worth it.

I think town's best chance of winning is to combine into one town.

I thought of multiple ways to do that, not all of which worked (because Arch thought of them too, and built in failsafes).  He wasn't hiding the fact that there are multiple factions -- it's right there in our win conditions.  It's complicated, but there is definitely a system.  And where there's a system, there's always a loophole.

[ashersky]

One thing I left off the list above: successful scum kills means no issues with hated.

I actually think making players Hated is better for scum than you all think.  Giving up a kill is risky, but it also reduces POE in the future.  Secret Hated (only secret for the player, not the scums) is strong, because you can orchestrate derphammers all day long.  If all alignments are known and people keep not dying, we know scum's up to something.

[Haddock]

Ash, that's all great stuff.  Not really an alignment tell for you, but great stuff nonetheless.

I feel the need to clear something up though.  I feel like you were frustrated yesterday that you didn't get people to go along with the mass alignment claim plan.  Not to put words into people's mouths, but I think that's basically because people had thought of most of the stuff in your list above, and none of it qualifies as "breaking the setup".  You seemed to be claiming that you had a guaranteed win if people went for the alignment claim, and none of the stuff in the list above gives us a guaranteed win.  You can see how that made people reluctant, I hope.

[ashersky]

Ash, that's all great stuff.  Not really an alignment tell for you, but great stuff nonetheless.

I feel the need to clear something up though.  I feel like you were frustrated yesterday that you didn't get people to go along with the mass alignment claim plan.  Not to put words into people's mouths, but I think that's basically because people had thought of most of the stuff in your list above, and none of it qualifies as "breaking the setup".  You seemed to be claiming that you had a guaranteed win if people went for the alignment claim, and none of the stuff in the list above gives us a guaranteed win.  You can see how that made people reluctant, I hope.

None of that is the breaking the setup part.

[EgorK]

Egor, do you have any intention of reacting to my explanation of why I believed you so easily? I realised last irl night that there was another reason why I believed you as well, that I took into account without thinking about it.  Namely all your fuss about being blocked.  The complaints about being blocked and how my being alive made me superscummy (which made no sense at first) suddenly made sense when Hydrad appeared and then you claimed vig. There's just no way scum could have predicted the Hydrad redirection. Unless Hydrad is scum as well, I guess.

I guess Hydrad COULD be scum claiming a town redirection power that he actually has as a scum role. I hadn't thought of that.

I slept. Your explanation duly noted. I still think you are scummiest for the time being

Yes, I just assumed scum wiffed. When there are explanation without requiring additional PRs to interfere I prefer to assume it correct until other compelling evidence presented to contrary. So I would operate under assumption there is someone hated (though probably not Haddock). Protective roles are possible of course

PPE: ash post

[Haddock]

Protective roles are possible of course

Wondering aloud: what happens if a doctor or something protects someone who scum whiffs on? Does the hating still happen? After all its not a kill...

I guess we won't ever know this but it's interesting.  I imagine there'd be a clause about it in any potential doctor's PM.

[Haddock]

None of that is the breaking the setup part.

Oh I see. Righto, forget I said anything then.

[pingpongsam]

I'll add that I no longer need to hammer. My job is done. I mean I can make use of future hammers/components but yesterday's hammer was the priority.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Do we want to lynch me and see if Haddock is telling the truth? Or do we want to lynch Haddock? I'm not entirely sure what Haddock thinks he can do, but all I need to know is that if I get lynched I won't die.

And I encourage people not to call me town or scum based on chairs.
And why is it okay to call people 'scum?' I mean, it's supposed to be taken lightly, but man, scum is a really powerful word.

How much of Day One have you read?

[pingpongsam]

Everything Haddock has claimed adds up to me. I have to say if I had his power I would target scum reads at night too. Scum reads are most likely to get lynched. If we happen mislynch somebody because they read scum and I can resurrect them then I just created an IC, prevented a mislynch, and created great wagon analysis. Targeting town reads doesn't serve much purpose because they are more likely to be NK'd where the resurrection power does not extend. Plus, they are already town reads so, if they are in fact town we don't need them IC'd nearly as badly to trust the reads.

I'm becoming more suspicious of those painting Haddock as obvscum, here.

Vote: WW

[pingpongsam]

I think the hated/guessing mechanic is pretty novel (thanks, mods). For scum it presents an interesting choice. When you mis-guess you now know the correct alignment to guess on succeeding nights but you also make them easier to mislynch the next day. As thr game progresses this snowballs but in the early game I think it creates some very interesting discussion for scum at a minimum.

[Witherweaver]

Everything Haddock has claimed adds up to me. I have to say if I had his power I would target scum reads at night too. Scum reads are most likely to get lynched. If we happen mislynch somebody because they read scum and I can resurrect them then I just created an IC, prevented a mislynch, and created great wagon analysis. Targeting town reads doesn't serve much purpose because they are more likely to be NK'd where the resurrection power does not extend. Plus, they are already town reads so, if they are in fact town we don't need them IC'd nearly as badly to trust the reads.

I'm becoming more suspicious of those painting Haddock as obvscum, here.

Vote: WW

What's the point here?  That scum is afraid of Haddock's ability so is trying to get him lynched?

[pingpongsam]

Everything Haddock has claimed adds up to me. I have to say if I had his power I would target scum reads at night too. Scum reads are most likely to get lynched. If we happen mislynch somebody because they read scum and I can resurrect them then I just created an IC, prevented a mislynch, and created great wagon analysis. Targeting town reads doesn't serve much purpose because they are more likely to be NK'd where the resurrection power does not extend. Plus, they are already town reads so, if they are in fact town we don't need them IC'd nearly as badly to trust the reads.

I'm becoming more suspicious of those painting Haddock as obvscum, here.

Vote: WW

What's the point here?  That scum is afraid of Haddock's ability so is trying to get him lynched?

The point is, since Haddock claimed I've felt like he is pretty forthcoming and honest town and he has made some night actions I would have made as a townie with that power. In other words, there is no scum narrative here. There's no decent case being presented so I am suspicious of those on his wagon with you being the most suspicious because you are just adapting  the same stance you had on him yesterday.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I missed the part where haddock using his power on someone makes them an IC. Why do we believe that?

[pingpongsam]

I missed the part where haddock using his power on someone makes them an IC. Why do we believe that?

A) It is ridiculously easy to disprove so long as he is claiming his targets.

B) He posted the claim quite quickly once pressured for it.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm talking about the person he uses his power on.

[pingpongsam]

Also, I will point out that Haddock was emphatically against the Awaclus wagon, yesterday. Awaclus died due to things outside of Haddock's control which leads me to believe Haddock wasn't throwing in support for cred but because he really is town thinking someone who was also was town was town.

[Witherweaver]

I missed the part where haddock using his power on someone makes them an IC. Why do we believe that?

A) It is ridiculously easy to disprove so long as he is claiming his targets.

B) He posted the claim quite quickly once pressured for it.

We have to lynch the person that he targets, though. 

[pingpongsam]

I'm talking about the person he uses his power on.

Um,what? I don't understand how anyone else gets made IC from it. He told us he targeted SirMartin. If we lynch SirMartin AND Haddock survives the night (a major conditional, there) then he can attempt to resurrect SirMartin. If SirMartin doesn't come back he was scum, good riddance. If he does come back he was Town and thus IC.

[Witherweaver]

I'm talking about the person he uses his power on.

Um,what? I don't understand how anyone else gets made IC from it. He told us he targeted SirMartin. If we lynch SirMartin AND Haddock survives the night (a major conditional, there) then he can attempt to resurrect SirMartin. If SirMartin doesn't come back he was scum, good riddance. If he does come back he was Town and thus IC.

... can't scum!Haddock just claim town!SirMartin was scum?

[pingpongsam]

I missed the part where haddock using his power on someone makes them an IC. Why do we believe that?

A) It is ridiculously easy to disprove so long as he is claiming his targets.

B) He posted the claim quite quickly once pressured for it.

We have to lynch the person that he targets, though.

Yeah, well, I'm not arguing we lynch his targets just that his claim is actually believable and thus he is probably not scum. Defending Haddock is not, by necessity, being in favor of enacting his power.

[pingpongsam]

I'm talking about the person he uses his power on.

Um,what? I don't understand how anyone else gets made IC from it. He told us he targeted SirMartin. If we lynch SirMartin AND Haddock survives the night (a major conditional, there) then he can attempt to resurrect SirMartin. If SirMartin doesn't come back he was scum, good riddance. If he does come back he was Town and thus IC.

... can't scum!Haddock just claim town!SirMartin was scum?

Nice loophole.

[Witherweaver]

I don't think this claim is very believable.  It doesn't sound like a real claim.  Especially with the part about forgetting to claim all the aspects of it.

[pingpongsam]

So having a useful power that has otherwise significant drawbacks is now inconceivable?